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H1-B activism or hope things get better?

Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551

Originally posted by Mike Zhang
I happened to mention your name to few fellows in today's lunch. All of their response is "we always have such people, don't bother with them. let them whine." These fellows are all Americans.
...
??? Guess I need some help in interpretation.

I see why the company likes you.
Did you really think your collegues were going to bash you at lunch?
I don't have the time to explain things to you, Rich doesn't have the patience.
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,
In this modern world, no country should and could completely closes its door to foreigners. When a boat hits a rock and water starts leaking into it, the first thing is to see if the hole can be fixed or blocked (may not be a proper terminology), instead of pushing some people into water to drop the weight. I don't know why some people like to focus on the minor part instead of the critical issues. I can tell you : those 50,000 H1B visa include lot of people who is holding the jobs. I have never heard such a thing these days in any country: Company asks foreigners to quit job just because they need to make rooms for citizens. I mean, if this foreigner is just laid off, I agree he/she should go home. But it is unfair to force him/her to quit the job if he/she is working on it well. That's why I say your idea of "sending all H1B home" is unfair and wrong.

mike,
Of course you will never hear of a company firing its cheap labor. For them, it is a great situation.
What I said about "sending all H1Bs home" was stated in several contexts. First, I said if it was up to me, I would send them all home. Second, I said all the H1-Bs who were brought here illegally should be sent home. If you have any respect for the law, you agree with my second point. Just because they are "here" does not mean it is legal.
The issue is not really the issue of sending someone home. If there is a "reasonably skilled" American to fill any of the H1-B positions, the spirit of the law is being broken. The intent of the law is to temporarily fill a position. My problem is "temporary" workers become long term employees and US citizens.
Rich
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,

As for you mentioned some companies "illegally" hired H1B visa by underpaying them. I think it is just case by case. There are always some people abusing the laws. they abuse everywhere, like Enron, MCI, those CFO/CEO are real killers to American employee. How much can 50,000 H1B people make annually ? how much did those bad guys make in the fraud ? My point is, we can NEVER 100% prevent any bad guys from taking advantage of policy, we can set more strict laws to monitor, but by no means should we completely abandoning it just because there are some bad guys and companies.
If you propose to setting up a strict monitoring law for this H1B, I totally agree with you. But your slogan is "sending all of H1B home". I don't think it makes sense.


mike,
I did not state "companies "illegally" hired H1-Bs by underpaying them." What I was saying was twofold. First, most of the H1-Bs were brought here illegally. There was really no "shortage" of skilled workers. As Dr. Matloff correctly concludes, there was not enough cheap labor. Second, once they are illegally here, the companies do not pay them "market" rate for their "skills" in this "shortage" area. Rather, they pay them as a "generic" programmer. This is also in Dr. Matloff's findings.
Next, I'll give you a "real world" overview of the widespread abuse. While I have worked as a consultant, over the past ten years, I have encountered the following breakdown of "uniquely skilled" individuals:
6 - Visual Basic only
4 - Visual Basic and Oracle
4 - ASP, Oracle and Crystal Reports
1 - Crystal Reports only
1- MFC and C++
Now, I know everyone who looks at that list of skills sees the need to bring in H1-Bs. These are not skills we would be able to find on Dice, Monster or the other job boards. Since we cannot find "skilled" individuals, we must find H1-Bs.
In actuality, these jobs are very easy to fill. All you have to do is put an ad up on several of the job boards and watch hundreds of resumes fly in the first day. Again, the truth is they are looking for cheap labor. If the workers do not complain when they are abused, it is even better.
I'm perplexed about your feelings about sending the H1-Bs home. If you are really concerned about what is right, how can you possibly agree with firing American workers and directly replacing them with H1-Bs? The documented case of Bank of America (BofA) in Charlotte, NC is a good example. This is a direct and clear violation of the law. Yet, this happens all too frequently.
In conclusion, the issue here is not a few "bad apple" companies breaking the law; the abuse is blatant and widespread. Rather, it is the government's lack of desire to enforce the laws. This is shown by the number of illegal H1-Bs who are here with easy to find skills. So, the companies should be heavily fined and the illegal workers sent home. Then, as long as it is legal, the companies can do whatever they please.
Rich
[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]
mike zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2002
Posts: 59
Rufus wrote;
**************
I see why the company likes you.
Did you really think your collegues were going to bash you at lunch?
I don't have the time to explain things to you, Rich doesn't have the patience.
**************
Do you really think I "need" your explanation ?
I just wish you could explain to yourself well, don't worry about others.
BTW, you said "Rich doesn't have the patience."
Pardon me ?
alex young
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 31, 2002
Posts: 1
I am a H1B holder. My company hired me legally and I am working here legally. What I want to tell other H1B people here is: We don't need to spend (or waste) time on this topic here. If some people hate to see us working in this country, just let them propose whatever they want. I suggest all H1B people quit from this topic discussion. Let them enjoy themselves. We have more important things to do in our lives.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by mike zhang:
Following your logic, we should also send those non citizen graduate students home because they take the schlarship and TA/RA positions. As long as there is one American who is qualified for that TA/RA position, that foreign student should be sent home. So, Rich, I guess you should make another web site to propose that, hah ?

Absolutely correct. Americans should be given preference over foreign students. Why is that a bad thing? Why is it wrong for America to look after her own citizens?


Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
mike zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2002
Posts: 59
You are right, Mr. Young. I will immediately quit from this topic discussion.
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by alex young:
I am a H1B holder. My company hired me legally and I am working here legally. What I want to tell other H1B people here is: We don't need to spend (or waste) time on this topic here. If some people hate to see us working in this country, just let them propose whatever they want. I suggest all H1B people quit from this topic discussion. Let them enjoy themselves. We have more important things to do in our lives.

Although Alex will not participate in this discussion, I wonder what his "skills" are. Do you think we could find an American citizen with "reasonably" equal skills to replace him? Given the economy and the number of US citizens who are unemployed, I think we could find one.
Rich
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by mike zhang:
You are right, Mr. Young. I will immediately quit from this topic discussion.

mike,
I'll look forward to discussing other topics with you in the future.
Rich
Sach Baat
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 07, 2002
Posts: 21
Originally posted by Richard Brokways:

Although Alex will not participate in this discussion, I wonder what his "skills" are. Do you think we could find an American citizen with "reasonably" equal skills to replace him? Given the economy and the number of US citizens who are unemployed, I think we could find one.
Rich

You are missing one important point here. Though you can find a citizen with equal skills (in terms of years) this might not be good enough for the employer.
Let me explain this further. Say Sun needs somebody to write the JAX-RPC specification.It puts out an ad asking for people with experience in C++ and Java. Now everybody applies for it and the company finds a good candidate.Unfortunately he is on a H1b visa. The company still hires him because he is the best candidate.
In this case, even though there are other American ctizens with equal experience in terms of years - they might not have the expertise to write the specification. To help keep the company competitive it has to hire the H1-b.
Iam not saying all cases are like this. There might be abuse in some cases. But right now I dont think people with easy to find skills are coming in.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Let me explain this further. Say Sun needs somebody to write the JAX-RPC specification.It puts out an ad asking for people with experience in C++ and Java. Now everybody applies for it and the company finds a good candidate.Unfortunately he is on a H1b visa. The company still hires him because he is the best candidate.

No, the company hires him because he is much cheaper than the US citizens. But regardless, the H-1B visa program is not designed to produce a pool of (cheap) labor to compete with domestic US labor. Read that last part and digest it. It makes your argument pointless.
Sach Baat
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 07, 2002
Posts: 21
"
No, the company hires him because he is much cheaper than the US citizens.
"
No not really. The company hires him because he is the best candidate.If I was the hiring company this is what I would do.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Sach Baat:
The company hires him because he is the best candidate.If I was the hiring company this is what I would do.

Then given your example, this is illegal. Please learn about the purpose of the H-1B program before floating such ideas as "reasonable".
Sach Baat
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 07, 2002
Posts: 21
"
Then given your example, this is illegal. Please learn about the purpose of the H-1B program before floating such ideas as "reasonable".
"
This is not illegal. In the given time frame the company could not find a candidate other than the H1B to write complex specifications.
From the INS website
"A specialty occupation requires theoretical and practical application of a body of specialized knowledge along with at least a bachelor�s degree or its equivalent.
"
Obviously the other candidates had listed skills in Java and C++, but they did not have the required theoretical and practical knowledge to apply it to a specialized task.
[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Sach Baat ]
jerry Finin
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 31, 2002
Posts: 8
******************
Mr. Truth, I'm just sniping the Indians like the Indians ( and the rest of the world ) have sniped US so many times. If you go back in this thread, I make a clear statement about the foreigners taking pot shots at the natives. We're tired of it.
If you go back in history, US was the cheap labor that put Italian shoemakers out of business. This is the beauty of the free market system. Free trade has been a problem, for some. for a long time.
I have more foreigner friends than I do natives.
I carry the native American blood. My British cousins visited India. They used to wear red coats.
Correcting the injustices in the H1-B system will benefit east and west.
We have many problems to solve with IT: cancer, AIDS, pollution and unreliable utilities.
Humanity needs the brain power of Asia.
The US labor force cannot adapt at the speed of light or in internet years.
We are a society and when some won't follow the laws, anarchy is likely to break out. If we were to throw a necktie party for an H1-B person, you would denounce us as murderers. We just broke a law, what's the big deal?
*************
Are you Ok, Rufus ?
jerry Finin
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 31, 2002
Posts: 8
Original post by Rufus ---
Mr. Truth, I'm just sniping the Indians like the Indians ( and the rest of the world ) have sniped US so many times. If you go back in this thread, I make a clear statement about the foreigners taking pot shots at the natives. We're tired of it.
If you go back in history, US was the cheap labor that put Italian shoemakers out of business. This is the beauty of the free market system. Free trade has been a problem, for some. for a long time.
I have more foreigner friends than I do natives.
I carry the native American blood. My British cousins visited India. They used to wear red coats.
Correcting the injustices in the H1-B system will benefit east and west.
We have many problems to solve with IT: cancer, AIDS, pollution and unreliable utilities.
Humanity needs the brain power of Asia.
The US labor force cannot adapt at the speed of light or in internet years.
We are a society and when some won't follow the laws, anarchy is likely to break out. If we were to throw a necktie party for an H1-B person, you would denounce us as murderers. We just broke a law, what's the big deal?

Are you sure you know what you talking about, Rufus ?
Jerry
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
The only legal way to hire an H1B is if no American is available who can do the job. This does not mean that you can hire an H1B if he is a better candidate. H1B's can not compete with Americans for jobs. If an American is available and he can do the job, it does not matter if the H1B can do the job better. It is illegal to hire the H1B in that case.
Sach Baat
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 07, 2002
Posts: 21
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The only legal way to hire an H1B is if no American is available who can do the job. This does not mean that you can hire an H1B if he is a better candidate. H1B's can not compete with Americans for jobs. If an American is available and he can do the job, it does not matter if the H1B can do the job better. It is illegal to hire the H1B in that case.

Well the candidates in this case cannot do the job properly, even though they have skills in Java and C++.In this case there is no competition for the H1b.
By the way, can you show me anything from the INS site to support your argument.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Sach Baat:
but they did not have the required theoretical and practical knowledge to apply it to a specialized task.

I'm sure this is how many supporters of the porgram try to rationalize this illegal behavior. But the fact remains, it is illegal. The law does not allow the employers the choice if there are Americans (or legal residents) available who can do the job. Any HR person who can look at you and with a straight face say that the H-1B candidate was hired because he was the only one available posessing "the theoretical and practical knowledge" is lying and commiting a crime by hiring said person. And anybody who actually believes this line probably has a guilty conscience, or doesn't want to admit (or doesn't care) that they are also being used in this game. Of course these HR people are also saving some $$ on the books for their employer and they know they won't be prosecuted, so why should they care?
jerry Finin
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 31, 2002
Posts: 8
Originally posted by Rich --
the spirit of the law is being broken. The intent of the law is to temporarily fill a position. My problem is "temporary" workers become long term employees and US citizens.

Rich, I understand what you thought. However the law issue is quite complicated. Multiple laws exist. I happen to know something about this so I just want to add some points for your reference. The law (I will say Law A) for H1B is indeed for temporary labor usage. But there is another so-called employment based permanent residence (something like that) law (I will say Law B) which allows employer to file premanent residence status for its employees. INS categorizes three levels of employees: level one -- professors, outstanding scientists; level 2 -- skilled professionals; level 3 -- normal workers. So, many "guests" came to this country using whatever type of visa, and eventually if their employer wants(many don't) to file the green card for them, they can use one of the aforementioned three levels. usually if he works in academic department he can use level 1; if he is IT professional he can use level 2; if he is normal worker he uses level 3.
So there is no way to prevent a H1B visa worker from changing to permanent resident unless there is a law saying H1B or other visa(s) holders can never apply for permanent resident.
But that's going to be a BIG issue because the Law B is still existing, and Law B is set for foreigners with the above three levels of skills and all of them are holding either H1B or those visas that you just banned them from changing to permanent resident. This will make Law B actually void because nobody will be able to apply it.
Now the question is: Can we let Law B become void at this time ? I don't thnik so because that means USA absolutely doesn't welcome any foreigners of any skill levels to become permanent residents. Well, some citizens may think so what, I don't care, not a big deal. but I don't think congress can make that tough decision. As somebody mentioned, this really touches the fundamentals, it is much more fundamental than H1 quota numbers.
Thus, personally I will say: seeking for some reasonable and feasible way to help citizens is good, but it may not be feasible to force touching/changing those fundamental policies. So,
I believe decreasing the H1B visa quota again, and setting tough law to punish those companies that purposely importing cheap H1B labors are two feasible choices. but if you want to go too far and be too "ambitious" on this issue, it may not work.
Jerry.
jerry Finin
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 31, 2002
Posts: 8
Posted by Paul --
The only legal way to hire an H1B is if no American is available who can do the job. This does not mean that you can hire an H1B if he is a better candidate. H1B's can not compete with Americans for jobs. If an American is available and he can do the job, it does not matter if the H1B can do the job better. It is illegal to hire the H1B in that case.

Paul, the issue is -- what is the criteria company used to determine if that H1B person is the best candidate ? Is it because he is really good or he is OK(or good, or even not good) but can be paid at a much lower wage ? If the drving motivation is from the low salary, then this company is abusing the H1B law.
But from your sentences, your hiring "algorithm" is: Among candidates, we categorize them into two sets: One is for citizens, the other is for H1B, if the best one among citizens is at skill level 5 (1 is lowest, 10 is highest), and we find a H1B whose level is 9. So, we should pick that citizen with level 5 without any hesitation. Right ? yeah, level 5 care barely handle the job.
If that's the guiding rule, I guess the company is going to lose more money and we all will have to expect a slower economy recovery...
Another point is : we have limited recruiting time for a job position so the number of candidates are limited. For the scenario i just described, I think we should hire that H1B because--
1. Assuming level 5 is the minimum level to do the job, but just barely, I can't expect productivity from him.
2. level 9 is excellent, BUT we need to make sure the company is NOT importing a CHEAP labor, i.e. the company should use same standard on salary.
If the citizen has a skill level of 8, then I agree we should hire the citizen even the H1B has a level of 9, BUT, I won't do that three years ago, it is just for this moment.
The bottom line is: company is not a welfare organization. It can make some compromise like I just mentioned, but not to the extent you want.
Sach Baat
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 07, 2002
Posts: 21
Originally posted by Jason Menard:

I'm sure this is how many supporters of the porgram try to rationalize this illegal behavior. But the fact remains, it is illegal. The law does not allow the employers the choice if there are Americans (or legal residents) available who can do the job. Any HR person who can look at you and with a straight face say that the H-1B candidate was hired because he was the only one available posessing "the theoretical and practical knowledge" is lying and commiting a crime by hiring said person. And anybody who actually believes this line probably has a guilty conscience, or doesn't want to admit (or doesn't care) that they are also being used in this game. Of course these HR people are also saving some $$ on the books for their employer and they know they won't be prosecuted, so why should they care?


This is not illegal behaviour. This is the intent of the H1B and that is the way it works.
The anti-immigrant lobby uses the tactic that H1bs are paid less.I can speak from personal experience that I always demanded and got above market salaries.
Of course, the H1Bs do get shafted a bit since they contibute towards social security and pay taxes, which they cannot avail of once they leave the country.
But I can say that the H1B program has been good for the US economy.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by jerry Finin:
The bottom line is: company is not a welfare organization. It can make some compromise like I just mentioned, but not to the extent you want.
So you would be willing to violate the law if it helps your bottom line? Thank you for that lesson in morality.
And I also doubt very much that your little scenario reflects reality. Do you really think that in a nation of 300 million people that you have to go outside of the country to find a qualified person?
Personally, I think the H1B program has been bad for America. There was never a programmer shortage in this country that required the importation of foreign workers.
[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
jerry Finin
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 31, 2002
Posts: 8

Paul posted --So you would be willing to violate the law if it helps your bottom line? Thank you for that lesson in morality.
And I also doubt very much that your little scenario reflects reality. Do you really think that in a nation of 300 million people that you have to go outside of the country to find a qualified person?

I feel sorry you don't get my points. I clearly mentioned in my messages that if a company intentionally hires a cheap H1B labor then it violates the law. But, on the other hand, the statement of "Company is not a welfare organization" is absolutely correct, that's WHY we need to interview people for job positions, it is not just beased who need the job, it is based on who can do the job. It doesn't mean that I will violate the law by keeping the bottom line.
You keep using 300 million figure to paint a picture that there is alwasys a good US candidate. Again and again I am telling you a company only has about two weeks to find the new employee and the ONLY way to select this person is from all the applicants who apply for the job. Someyimes maybe only 10 people apply. I have seen a case that only 3 people want to apply for a position in my company.
I said if I could find a citizen with skill level 8, I wouldn't hire a H1B with a skill of 9 or 10.
And you still think I am not protecting US citizens ? I said if the citizen only has a skill level 5 and a non citizen has a skill level of 9, then I would hire the non-citizen in a LEGAL way. But if the H1B only has a skill level of 6 or 7, then I would still hire that citizen with skill level 5. I think I am protecting the citizens.
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
Originally posted by jerry Finin:
[QB]
skill level 5... skill level 6 ... skill level 8 ... skill level 9
[QB]

Hi Jerry,
i am getting a little polemic. Don't take it personally:
You can tell me how to compute these magic skill levels?
Or do you guys have some open forum, where you discuss about how to compute? Or you just know?
I will give my best in my next seeking-a-new-job-round with still having a job. With all due respect, I have the firm conviction that all this skill level thing is an 90% abitrary process.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
It's even worse than that because you have to judge the skill level required to do the job (which is usually inflated) and the skill level of the candidates (no easy feat in itself). I would suggest that if someone is only getting 3 candidates for a programming job then they either didn't advertise or posted a salary that was too low for the position. Even at the height of the "programmer shortage" we were getting 25 candidates minimum for each position we offered.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
jerry - I'm sure glad you joined our discussion. I'm sure hoping you can enlighten us. Are you representing the industry on the age discrimination issue as well?

Are you Ok, Rufus?
Are you sure you know what you talking about, Rufus?

Maybe along with your skills rating, you could quantify "OK". Oh skip that, "no".
The second issue is a bit broad. If you could narrow the focus a wee bit, I would love for you to point out my ignorance or misconceptions.
Did you read Matloff's Assertions?
Geographically I live in the what used to be the old west. Do you remember why we used to lynch horse thieves? This is a rhetorical question.
Jamie Robertson - How many posts is this guy going to last?
Anonymous H1-B wimps - farewell, I hope you never get old and have to face age discrimination.
[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
Historically one of the most successfull methods of fighting a cause like this has been through the courts. Does anyone know how to file a freedom of information act request with the Department of Labor (DOL). The information that would be interesting to know is how many times has the DOL or the Justice Department prosecuted a company for violating the provisons of the H1-B act? Alternative sources are acceptable.
Matloff's Assertion states the following:
statements by the H-1Bs themselves, who have formed the national organization ISN (www.isn.org) with a goal of persuading Congress to reform the program

www.isn.org won't resolve in DNS, what's the deal?
Brokways when your going to trash a congressman or a senator, I wish you would name names.
[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]
jerry Finin
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 31, 2002
Posts: 8
Axel posted
You can tell me how to compute these magic skill levels?
Or do you guys have some open forum, where you discuss about how to compute? Or you just know?
I will give my best in my next seeking-a-new-job-round with still having a job. With all due respect, I have the firm conviction that all this skill level thing is an 90% abitrary process.

Axel,
you brought up a good question. How to determine a candidates's skill level ? It is not easy. I have seen many "excellent" candidates who can talk for hours and they seem to have great experience and knowledge, but once they are hired, their performance is way below what's expected. I have seen poeple who can't present that well but can do excellent tech job, remember they all applied for tech jobs. I believe many folks have the same feeling. As far as I know, many companies give out some standard tests to judge people, or they can gather a group of tech people and test the prospective employee by asking questions. Of course, these methods are not perfect, but at least they can provide some quantitative results and we can get a feeling of level 5 or level 9. No test (SAT, GRE, GMAT)
is perfect. So there is ALWAYS certain degree of "arbitrary" as you said. But from our experience we can rely on those results pretty well. At least it is much better than simply reading "the number of years of experience" in the resume.
I believe there are other ways to measure candidates' skill levels. If a company just relies on their subjective feeling to determine the candidate's skill level, then it is their problem and they need to improve. But I do think these days many companies (especifially consulting firms) are using some testing to test a candidate's level.
jerry Finin
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 31, 2002
Posts: 8
Posted By Rufus -
Are you representing the industry on the age discrimination issue as well?


No, I don't.


Maybe along with your skills rating, you could quantify "OK".

Thanks.
Abadula Joshi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 01, 2002
Posts: 126
Following Rufus's post --
Anonymous H1-B wimps - farewell, I hope you never get old and have to face age discrimination.


Rufus, same wish to you, anonymous little bug.
***
Many bugs were there before you were born.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
But I do think these days many companies (especifially consulting firms) are using some testing to test a candidate's level.

Those tests are meaningless and are often used only as a justification to eliminate people.
Personally, intimately, I know a guy who can nail those tests. He has trouble getting an interview.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
Of course, the H1Bs do get shafted a bit since they contibute towards social security and pay taxes, which they cannot avail of once they leave the country.

Are you sure that if you complete enough time to be eligible for social security that they won't send you your check?
So many of them forget that this country was built with taxes and blood which they made none of the contributions.
[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
Originally posted by alex young:
I am a H1B holder. My company hired me legally and I am working here legally. What I want to tell other H1B people here is: We don't need to spend (or waste) time on this topic here. If some people hate to see us working in this country, just let them propose whatever they want. I suggest all H1B people quit from this topic discussion. Let them enjoy themselves. We have more important things to do in our lives.


Why not make an intelligent contribution? In any dialogue, there are always people with different opinions, some inflammatory statements, etc..
H1B abuse doesn't help you, nor does it help Americans who are denied jobs because of it.
When employers abuse the program, it endangers you, too. If employers stuck to the rules, H1-B would be fulfilling a need, contribute to the economy, and more Americans would have jobs as well.
When employers are the only ones who win, it does not help the economy. Notice how no politician has mentioned the Tricle-Down Theory after the Reagan era? That's because it didn't work! When companies make more money, they do not share it.


www.websiteandsound.com
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kalpana Iyer
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 17, 2002
Posts: 10
Originally posted by Rufus Bugleweed:

Are you sure that if you complete enough time to be eligible for social security that they won't send you your check?

Yes, they deduct 6% Social Sec. Tax and they do not pay any benefits of one doesn't pay SoSec for a minimum of 10 years.
And FYI, max. time of h1 visa is 6 yrs (including 3 yrs ext.). That's a pretty sleek technique to extract 6% for nothing....huh?

So many of them forget that this country was built with taxes and blood which they made none of the contributions.

Why do you think H1's don't make any contributions? I pay almost 1600$ (on a salary of $5500) in taxes.
Btw, why are you guys so angry at H1's? It's not like we came here by digging tunnels accross your southern borders. I think it very unfair of you to just target us whereas the real culprits (if there really is) are your own companies, your own politicians and your own system
Frankly, actual H1s are merely pawns in this big game. We (well, at least myself) came here to earn money and a good life. And I am pretty sure you father/grandfather came to this country for the same purpose. Didn't they? I am ok even if I am paid less than what a citizen would get [I'm not sure if it affects the overall rate. I'll explain below.] because it is still more than what I make in my country. But so what? I did not force anybody to hire me. Hell, I did not even know that I am being under paid.
1. Here are the details of my payment: I am working at company X. X pays $100 Per Hr to a consulting company C1, which is is a prefered vendor of X. C1 pays C2 ( I don't know how much). C2 pays C3( I don't know how much). Finally C3 pays me a salary of $5500 PM. (Approx. 28$/Hr). Now, are you still envious of me??? Out of $85, which is what C2 probably gets from C1 and which is what a citizen or a green card holder would get, I get only $27. So yes, I am being exploited just because I am on H1 (and I can't go solo, I have to be employed with someone), but company X doesn't know about this. It still pays $100 per hr for me. And I am pretty sure that it would not pay any more to a citizen. So I believe that the rates are not down due to H1s. They are down due to these blood sucking parasites called middle parties/consulting companies/oursourcing/placement agencies.

2. I did not break any laws to get in. I gave the extact and true information regarding my qualification. Your INS approved it. So why am I (H1s) being targetted???
And honestly, you need to do a little bit more research before accusing H1 of dragging down the rates. In all the projects I have worked in, the company paid same hourly rate to natives and H1. It is a different matter that H1s finally get a lot less than the natives. Still, H1s do NOT undercutt the labor market as you are accusing them of.
Just think about it. You are barking at the worng tree. We are not the cause of your troubles.
Abadula Joshi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 01, 2002
Posts: 126
If somebody talks about tax, I think H1B people don't miss a cent in the tax payment. But they don't get any real social security in reality. If they leave for their home country after 5 or six years' stay, unlike citizens, they got nothing in return. Everybody pays money for some reason. Why does IRS deduct social security tax from H1B people without giving them any security ? Anybody who claims H1B don't pay tax is just like saying the Sun rises from the West.
To some extent, H1B are really victims. If they are sent back to home for the reson of unemployment, they should be paid not only the cseverance package, but also the compensation for being the victim of the "fraud" (if there is such fraud committed by either US government or company).
Some citizens whine H1B people get too much benefits as US citizens have. What do they have ? They can't stay here legally for 2 weeks once they lose a job, they can't get education loan, they can't change job as citizens can, they can't do lot of things. They are being discriminated by this country. Victims should not be blamed, should be compensated, no matter who made the mistake, company or government.
H1B are not slaves of two hundred years ago that you can freely move from or back to Africa. Who care who committee the fraud, if there is such fraud, we are the victims and we need some party to pay us back.
Elizabeth King
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 191
This thread has been running for too long. Let's
stop it.
We all know the problem we are facing is due to
the bad economy, which is result from
the bubbles, 9/11, the pending war, and the incompetent administration, ...
We can not blame Monica for this. I miss Bill.
[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mary King ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Well, no one forces H1B's to work in the US. If you don't like the terms you can return home. You knew the rules when you accepted the H1B visa so I have absolutely no sympathy for you.
JiaPei Jen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 19, 2000
Posts: 1309
Wage rates are down due to these blood sucking parasites called middle parties/consulting companies/oursourcing/placement agencies.

First of all, I am a US citizen. To be fair, the above sentence is true.
About two months ago, a recruiter from a recruiting agency called me up. She said that the agency worked with US citizens only (no H1Bs). The rate that the agency paid Java Developers with certifications and two to three years of work experience was about US$28/hour without any fringe benefit. I pointed out that the "bill rate" was much higher than US$28/hour. She simply stopped talking to me.
I am sure there are bodyshops all over the country especially in the Silicon Valley. However, many H1Bs are paid the same as US citizens.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Abadula Joshi:
Some citizens whine H1B people get too much benefits as US citizens have. What do they have ? They can't stay here legally for 2 weeks once they lose a job, they can't get education loan, they can't change job as citizens can, they can't do lot of things. They are being discriminated by this country. Victims should not be blamed, should be compensated, no matter who made the mistake, company or government.
H1B are not slaves of two hundred years ago that you can freely move from or back to Africa. Who care who committee the fraud, if there is such fraud, we are the victims and we need some party to pay us back.

First off, I have been paying into social security since I was 15 or so, and I don't expect to see a penny of it when I reach retirement age. I do not expect there will be any social security benefits available when it comes my turn to collect, so I'm afraid I have no sympathy for you on that one.
Second, H-1Bs are non-immigrant temporary workers. They do not have the same privledges as permanent residents and citizens. That's just the way it is, and you knew that before you signed up for the program, or you should have. If on the other hand you choose to seek citizenship, then you will receive the same social security benefits when you retire as any other US citizen, which as I pointed out earlier will likely be none at all.
 
wood burning stoves
 
subject: H1-B activism or hope things get better?