wood burning stoves*
The moose likes Jobs Discussion and the fly likes Visas and Outsourcing Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login


Win a copy of The Java EE 7 Tutorial Volume 1 or Volume 2 this week in the Java EE forum
or jQuery UI in Action in the JavaScript forum!
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Careers » Jobs Discussion
Bookmark "Visas and Outsourcing" Watch "Visas and Outsourcing" New topic
Author

Visas and Outsourcing

Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Ravish: Ans: Yes, no one denies. (newbies on projects)
Actually, this is not the case in my industry. Experienced American workers are being laid off because projects are being outsourced, and management's justification was that they were getting expert programmers from offshore for cheaper prices. As it turns out, they're not.
Joe
Prakash Dwivedi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2002
Posts: 452
Hi,
I read the article and i really appreciate ur concern regarding increasing unemployment in US. But i fail to understand why u have to critisize indian firms to proove ur point. Today all the major s/w companies of the world (Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, and our beloved SUN) are having their development center in India. and everybody will laugh at u if u say that none of these companies care about quality(and only u care about quality).
If pricing is the only issue which people care about than Linux would have become most popular OS long back. And to proove it u gave a very strange logic, by giving reference of one vague email u wanted to proove that all the India Firms are having less qualified people. It sound like that if u find one criminal in a country u declare it a Terrorist State?
U also accused that it is unsafe to send critical work outside the country, than i must tell u there are good people as well as bad people in every society. And again u generalizing the whole issue as if any work which is outsourced will be misused???
As i said earlier i appriciate ur concern regarding visa(although i am not too sure about outsourcing), but i also believe that ur point will be more valid and acceptable if u dont critisize indian firms unnecessarily, because everytime u accuse indian firms for developing poor quality s/w, the focus will get shifted from the main issue(as in this forum) plus all major sw companies will support Indian stand and not urs(As they r having their devlopment centers in India).


Prakash Dwivedi (SCJP2, SCWCD, SCBCD)
"Failure is not when you fall down, Its only when you don't get up again"
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Please take the time to re-read the article.
I never said "all Indian companies create bad software". This is a completely incorrect interpretation of what I actually did say, which was that the software engineers placed on outsourced projects are not experts.
I said: "You get what you pay for", which in the context of the article means you are getting people on projects who have no idea what the project is about. Nobody here has disproven that statement, and in fact we have learned that this is a constant practice: offshore consulting companies put freshers on projects, in some cases the projects are mostly freshers.
Joe
Prakash Dwivedi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2002
Posts: 452
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Ravish: Ans: Yes, no one denies. (newbies on projects)
Actually, this is not the case in my industry. Experienced American workers are being laid off because projects are being outsourced, and management's justification was that they were getting expert programmers from offshore for cheaper prices. As it turns out, they're not.
Joe


If this is the case than why major s/w companies like IBM, Fidelity which use to outsource work to India earlier are now having their own development centers. And Plz dont say that they r also compromising on quality.
I said: "You get what you pay for", which in the context of the article means you are getting people on projects who have no idea what the project is about.
In that case i will ask u to come and visit any Indian Company, and plz dont make such a strong opinion just by reading posts in some mail forums.
[ November 29, 2003: Message edited by: Prakash Dwivedi ]
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
JP: So, according to this, some 60% or more of the developers on any given project are freshers.
Ravish: If you have any answer then May I know, how did you deduce this figure ??
This is the last time I even bother responding to you, Ravish, since you don't even take the time to read the posts:
Teri To: There are experienced people who have the responsibility to deliver the project. Under them, there are some less experienced people and tons (ok, not 100 but about 3 to 10, depending on project) of freshers.
Note the word "TONS". This phrase by any reading says that in the majority of cases, there are more freshers than non-freshers. I picked 60%, because that's a little more than half. The numbers may not be exact, but they get the idea across: a large percentage, often more than half, of a given project is freshers.
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
If this is the case than why major s/w companies like IBM, Fidelity which use to outsource work to India earlier are now having their own development centers.
What does this have to do with outsourcing? I never said there were no good developers offshore, just that outsourced companies don't staff projects with all or even a majority of experts, but instead with lots of freshers.
It's possible that companies like IBM have development centers rather than outsourcing because the quality of outsourcing was too poor. In fact, if outsourcing was so cost-effective, they'd still be doing it, but instead, they've actually created their own development centers, possibly so that they have control over the developers who work on their projects.
As I said, I have yet to find any successful outsourced projects in my industry, and in the meantime, my coworkers are unable to find work.
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
In that case i will ask u to come and visit any Indian Company, and plz dont make such a strong opinion just by reading posts in some mail forums.
I make my comments based on my own experience, and the experience of many others in my industry, as well as based on the questions we see on the mailing lists and in other places. And finally, on the fact that I have yet to see a large-scale application development project in my industry that has been outsourced successfully.
Joe
Prakash Dwivedi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2002
Posts: 452
It's possible that companies like IBM have development centers rather than outsourcing because the quality of outsourcing was too poor.
The problem is that u keep making serious allegations without even thinking twice. Why dont u ask IBM pepple what they think.
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

And finally, on the fact that I have yet to see a large-scale application development project in my industry that has been outsourced successfully.
Joe

Wel this is a very tricky statement, in a Java forum u want us to give an example of successful project on AS/400. Plus i was having an impression that we r discussing Visas and Outsourcing, but now u r telling me that we were so far discussing "Visas and Outsourcing of AS/400 jobs".
If u r intersted i can tell u many examples of successful projects made in java technologies by indian companies.
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
This is a primary difference between your philosophy and mine, and the reason I don't want newbies on my code.
Joe

Joe, you are harping on the same old issue on which I gave you an argument to which you never replied. I am assuming that you don't have any valid point and are just trying to rake up something controvercial (troll alert?).
It's fine that you don't want any fresher on your project. The email that you've quoted on your website DO NOT say that you are FORCED to use freshers on your project.
Let me repeat what I mentioned before: Outsourcing is a contract. Just like any other contract, you can specify what you want and what you don't want. A company (for e.g you or your company) can even specify that you want to interview a resource before it is put on your project. This is a fact. I know it first hand.
Now, what's your objection? The emails that you've mentioned DO NOT say anything about what the contract was between both the companies. So your point that freshers/newbies work on a project is correct but totally inconsequencial.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
The problem is that u keep making serious allegations without even thinking twice. Why dont u ask IBM pepple what they think.
((Laughing!!))
I suggest you consult a dictionary to determine what the word "allegation" means. I alleged nothing. I provided a possible alternate explanation. In so doing, I was pointing out that IBM's development centers don't prove anything about outsourcing one way or the other.
The funny thing about this whole conversation is that I never said most of the things you people are complaining about. It's all in your heads! I type words, and you come up with bizarre interpretations. The phrase that comes to mind? "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Seeya!
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Outsourcing is a contract. Just like any other contract, you can specify what you want and what you don't want. A company (for e.g you or your company) can even specify that you want to interview a resource before it is put on your project. This is a fact. I know it first hand.
Yeah, but it's more expensive, isn't it, Teri? The whole point of outsourcing is that it is cheaper. If we ask for non-freshers, consulting firms then jack up the rates. And not one consulting company advertises the fact that half the people working on a project are newbies. But now we know.
And for that, I thank you!
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
How about this as a synopsis of the discussion so far:
1. Companies that hire offshore outsourcing firms should be aware that a large percentage (in some cases as much as 50% or more) of the people assigned to any given project are normally "freshers" - new programmers directly out of university with little or no application experience.
2. These freshers are sometimes assigned to your project and are not billed and don't even appear on the project records. These "Shadow Resources" have no knowledge of your business, and no interaction with you or your users.
3. A standard resource for these freshers is the Internet. They will post basic, entry-level questions in forums and mailing lists looking for answers on how to write the code you are paying for.
4. If you want experienced developers on your project, you must request this and have it spelled out in your contract. You can (and should) interview them yourself. This will cost more.
Is this stated correctly? If not, please specify EXACTLY which phrases are incorrect, and what you think the correction should be.
Joe
[ November 29, 2003: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]
Prakash Dwivedi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2002
Posts: 452
These are all ur imaginations(Points 1 to 4). Also Plz specify whether we r talking about whole IT industry or just for AS/400 projects.
The fact remains that in general Indian IT Companies provide better services, and that is the reason why they are gaining so much success. In todays competitive world nobody can succeed without giving quality service. And evertime this discussion arises u narrow ur approach to AS/400 projects(In this Java Forum), but let me remind u IT Industry is far bigger han that.
I alleged nothing. I provided a possible alternate explanation. In so doing, I was pointing out that IBM's development centers don't prove anything about outsourcing one way or the other.
In that case an possible alternative explanation why people loosing their jobs in US is that they may not be working properly, or giving far less output if u compare them with indian counterparts.
[ November 29, 2003: Message edited by: Prakash Dwivedi ]
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
These are all ur imaginations(Points 1 to 4).
((LAUGHING!))
Okay, Prakash, time for you to put up or shut up. These things are NOT my imagination, they've been said by your compatriots in this very thread.
Let's just take one example:
Paul McKenna: A fresher on a live project is termed as a "Shadow Resource". He or she is not billable and not advertised to the client. The project's success does not depend on their performance. When I worked as a "Shadow Resource" my job assignments varied from formatting the code to preparing unit test scenarios.
This is my point 2 above. So are you calling Paul a liar?
Please, take the time and re-read the thread, and you'll see that every one of those four points was actually first posted by one of the people here. Then, please have enough respect to actually answer the question: which part of the statements are incorrect?
If you cannot take the time to do that, if you do not have the basic respect to carry on a meaningful conversation, if all you can do is call everything I say a lie, then our conversation is finished and I will no longer respond to anything you say.
I have been as respectful as possible throughout this, despite the obvious personal nature of the attacks. I will no longer accept non-specific tirades. Answer the question completely and professionally, or don't expect a response. I will, however, for the sake of completeness answer your other remark:
In that case an possible alternative explanation why people loosing their jobs in US is that they may not be working properly, or giving far less output if u compare them with indian counterparts.
You're absolutely right. It's possible. Anything is possible. But there is nothing that proves that to be the case.
Joe
[ November 29, 2003: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]
Prakash Dwivedi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2002
Posts: 452
Okay, Prakash, time for you to put up or shut up
Well Well, Now is it frustration??
what u r doing here is accusing Indian Companies of developoing low quality products. When u were unable to proove anything u narrowed ur vision to AS/400(in this Java Forum). Than u declared ur self head of SQA team who is going to evaluate Indian IT industry. Here is what u wrote.
I have yet to find one completed project in my industry, much less somebody getting repeat business. Please find me an example of an Indian company having repeat business in AS/400 development (which was the focus of my article, because it's about outsourcing my industry, AS/400 development).
And finally, on the fact that I have yet to see a large-scale application development project in my industry that has been outsourced successfully.
if a person is blind it doesn't mean than that the whole world lives in darkness. If u can't see how successful Indian IT Industry is today its ur personal problem. and again they can't be successful by delivering low quality products(made by the projects which include 50% freshers). And if the client is satisfied with the services they are getting than there is no reason why anybody should complain (except those who doesn't believe in competition, and wants to establish their monopoly)
Again this topic and the article was about Visas And Outsourcing in IT Industry(In which u keeping adding and removing the condition of AS/400 according to ur convenience). I believe we have left the main issue long back, and now what we r discussing is quality of service Indian Companies are providing(which has nothing to do with the main issue). If company A in US is outsourcing some work to company B in India than they sign formal agreement and if India company can't deliver project on time or deliver it with inferior quality than the American company can drag them to court and make them pay for there losses.
[ November 30, 2003: Message edited by: Prakash Dwivedi ]
[ November 30, 2003: Message edited by: Prakash Dwivedi ]
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
JP: Okay, Prakash, time for you to put up or shut up
PD: Well Well, Now is it frustration??
Nope, it's a common Americanism meant in good humor.
In any event, since you refuse to answer my questions - questions which could have returned this conversation to a calm, orderly discussion - and instead continue to try to put words into my mouth and use terms like "its ur personal problem", then I am done with you. I will no longer respond to your questions, since you are incapable of civil discourse.

Joe
Karthik Guru
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Guess none of the indians here work for wipro and neither does Joe. I wonder if it really makes sense speculating about something we really dont know about.
meanwhile enjoy this
Business Week Cover Story
Varun Khanna
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2002
Posts: 1400

1. Companies that hire offshore outsourcing firms should be aware that a large percentage (in some cases as much as 50% or more) of the people assigned to any given project are normally "freshers" - new programmers directly out of university with little or no application experience.
2. These freshers are sometimes assigned to your project and are not billed and don't even appear on the project records. These "Shadow Resources" have no knowledge of your business, and no interaction with you or your users.
3. A standard resource for these freshers is the Internet. They will post basic, entry-level questions in forums and mailing lists looking for answers on how to write the code you are paying for.
4. If you want experienced developers on your project, you must request this and have it spelled out in your contract. You can (and should) interview them yourself. This will cost more.
Is this stated correctly? If not, please specify EXACTLY which phrases are incorrect, and what you think the correction should be.

Joe,
After reading the mentioned points, I am interested in knowing what image do you carry of a "fresher"?
I am asking in general like the calibre, enthusiasm to learn new things,ability to grasp new technology etc. etc.

When you have a "fresher" in your project what image do you carry of him?
Though the points you mentioned above, says something about what image you carry of a fresher but still its better to ask rather then making any assumption.
[ November 30, 2003: Message edited by: V�r�n Kha�n� ]

- Varun
Prakash Dwivedi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2002
Posts: 452
The problem is one way ot the another u r desperatly trying to malign the image of Indian IT Industry. Some thing exactly what u were trying to do in ur 4 points as basic objective was to evaluate their performance and then question their credibility(something which has nothing to do with the topic of discussion). Sorry but i will question ur knowledge and credibility before that. How can one person who is already prejudiced and know nothing about IT industry(except few emails in some forum) can decide on that. If u have some exp in this industry or any industry other than u must be knowing that to figure out how an industry work in a country reqires a widespread survey. But somehow u r too much eager to jump on to conclusions. This is a childish behaviour which u r showing right from the begining.
Or may be u wanted to prrove that US firms are loosing their jobs only because of low pricing of indian firms and indian firms develop poor quality s/w. This and argument which most the people(mostly jobless) give to satisfy their ego. Where as the fact remain all the major s/w companies of the world are coming to india as they find better future(of s/w industry) in India.
All the time during discussion u have shown very difficult attitude, every time when u r out of any reasonable arguments u try to defend urself using AS/400 tech(In this Java Forum) or somehow avoid answering the basic question. In that case u r free to live in ur dreamworld.
Sonny Gill
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 02, 2002
Posts: 1211

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
How about this as a synopsis of the discussion so far:
1. Companies that hire offshore outsourcing firms should be aware that a large percentage (in some cases as much as 50% or more) of the people assigned to any given project are normally "freshers" - new programmers directly out of university with little or no application experience.
2. These freshers are sometimes assigned to your project and are not billed and don't even appear on the project records. These "Shadow Resources" have no knowledge of your business, and no interaction with you or your users.
3. A standard resource for these freshers is the Internet. They will post basic, entry-level questions in forums and mailing lists looking for answers on how to write the code you are paying for.
4. If you want experienced developers on your project, you must request this and have it spelled out in your contract. You can (and should) interview them yourself. This will cost more.
Is this stated correctly? If not, please specify EXACTLY which phrases are incorrect, and what you think the correction should be.
Joe
[ November 29, 2003: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]

i cant believe this thread's still going...
just my 2 cents from my own experience..
indian companies do take on freshers, as do companies anywhere else in the world I suppose. I gained work-experience at an Indian company too, and before it started, it was made very clear to me that most likely whatever coding I do will not be included in the actual product, as its reliability was a critical factor. And true to what I was told, what I did was not used in the final product, but I got an opportunity to study the whole development process, and learned a lot.
On the other hand, at least on one occasion, I knew about a totally incompetent bunch of people working on another project in Powerbuilder. These guys, at another company, had overstated their skills, taken on a PowerBuilder project, and were learning to use it as they went along. I dont know what happened to this company, I doubt they would have got any repeat business. I think there were quite a few small time companies like that in India at one time, but most of these if not all, were weeded out during the bust. At this stage, it would be safe to say that most of the bigger outsourcing companies in India are staffed with very qualified people, especially with the pool of qualified (under or)unemployed professionals available there.
Now, re: asking questions on the internet, I think everything that can be said has already been said. But there is one thing I observed in India when I was working there, that was in very direct contrast to my experience while staying in Australia...I found that a lot of people there were holding back knowledge and not sharing it. and if they did share it, they will make you feel like they were doing you a huge favour...as a result I also found that many times i preferred to look for answers on internet or going through books etc rather than ask the more experinced people around me. That could be one possible explanation for these guys from big companies asking questions on discussion forums.
well, that was my 2-cents..I hope I made some sense.


The future is here. It's just not evenly distributed yet. - William Gibson
Consultant @ Xebia. Sonny Gill Tweets
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
After reading the mentioned points, I am interested in knowing what image do you carry of a "fresher"?
Well, I base my definition on what the people here have told me. Teri To explained it as follows: I started as one of them. They are right from college and don't know anything. I didn't either. And they do lots of stupid things. Just like I did.
Most people here seem to agree with this assessment: freshers are kids right out of college who have completed a computer science curriculum but who have no experience in developing real world applications.
I hope you'll now respond to the four statements I made.
Joe
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

1. Companies that hire offshore outsourcing firms should be aware that a large percentage (in some cases as much as 50% or more) of the people assigned to any given project are normally "freshers" - new programmers directly out of university with little or no application experience.
Joe

((Laughing... )) [actually giving you company, I like people who laugh a lot]
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
JP: So, according to this, some 60% or more of the developers on any given project are freshers.
Ravish: If you have any answer then May I know, how did you deduce this figure ??
This is the last time I even bother responding to you, Ravish, since you don't even take the time to read the posts:
Teri To: There are experienced people who have the responsibility to deliver the project. Under them, there are some less experienced people and tons (ok, not 100 but about 3 to 10, depending on project) of freshers.
Note the word "TONS". This phrase by any reading says that in the majority of cases, there are more freshers than non-freshers. I picked 60%, because that's a little more than half. The numbers may not be exact, but they get the idea across: a large percentage, often more than half, of a given project is freshers.
Joe

Hi Joe
I wish you will be kind enough to reply me again.
I think, to get a %age you need to know total number and fraction part of total.
So I can say that when you said that 60% people are fresher, it was only your assumption based on someone's post.
Though he NEVER said so. (he could have himself given %age)
So please let me correct you, this is not the case and I hope in future before making such statement you will think and do some research.
I think before making statements with numbers you should do proper research.
Did you ask "Teri To" the size of team in which there would be 3 fresher programmer ??
NO, and as usual you assumed.
Sorry for rippling your assumptions, please carry on.
It seems that your article is based on "assumptions" as you have never visited "any" out sourcing company personally.
Your article is based on third party information. And I dont want to debate on third party information as one cant be confident on the third party information.
I wish you all the best.
[ November 30, 2003: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
1. Companies that hire offshore outsourcing firms should be aware that a large percentage (in some cases as much as 50% or more) of the people assigned to any given project are normally "freshers" - new programmers directly out of university with little or no application experience.
Assumption.
2. These freshers are sometimes assigned to your project and are not billed and don't even appear on the project records. These "Shadow Resources" have no knowledge of your business, and no interaction with you or your users.
By Paul:
When I worked as a "Shadow Resource" my job assignments varied from formatting the code to preparing unit test scenarios.
Do you think, formatting code or writing unit test cases by a fresher [and after that it will be reviewed too] will affect the quality of end product.
3. A standard resource for these freshers is the Internet. They will post basic, entry-level questions in forums and mailing lists looking for answers on how to write the code you are paying for.
Only God knows what do you mean by this.
If an Indian wont ask then anyone else who is WORKING as programmer any where else will ask this question.
What is your point by saying that newbie questions are asked. [though you have tried a lot to say something and it was understood by none.]
4. If you want experienced developers on your project, you must request this and have it spelled out in your contract. You can (and should) interview them yourself. This will cost more.
I dont know, how can interviewing a candidate cost more.
AW if they are ready to pay more[as per you] for "quality work" then what is your problem.
Is this stated correctly? If not, please specify EXACTLY which phrases are incorrect, and what you think the correction should be.
Sorry to say but all these assumptions are false.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
I think, to get a %age you need to know total number and fraction part of total.
In my last post I said "as much as 50% or more". Are you saying that all projects have less than 50% freshers? Are you in fact saying anything at all relevant to the four statements I made? No, since you are quoting posts made nearly a week ago, rather than addressing the most recent questions.

It seems that your article is based on "assumptions"
The issue in question is not my article, it is the four statements I made in my post of November 29th at 1:13 PM, in which I am quoting the posts made by you and others. I have distilled what the people here have said into four statements, and now I ask for either concurrence or correction.
Since you choose to supply neither and insist on talking about older posts, your comments are no longer constructive to the conversation. And since there have been no contradictory comments, I intend to quote those four statements as the summary of the opinions on this forum.
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
One question at a time.
JP: 1. Companies that hire offshore outsourcing firms should be aware that a large percentage (in some cases as much as 50% or more) of the people assigned to any given project are normally "freshers" - new programmers directly out of university with little or no application experience.
Ravish: Assumption.
No, Ravish, this was stated by Teri. Some experieced, some not so experienced, tons of freshers (3 to 10). The obvious implication is that some projects have 10 freshers and less than 10 experienced people. Thus, the phrase "in some cases". Either you or Teri is wrong, or you don't understanf English. Which is it?
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
One question at a time.
2. These freshers are sometimes assigned to your project and are not billed and don't even appear on the project records. These "Shadow Resources" have no knowledge of your business, and no interaction with you or your users.
Ravish says:
By Paul:
When I worked as a "Shadow Resource" my job assignments varied from formatting the code to preparing unit test scenarios.
Do you think, formatting code or writing unit test cases by a fresher [and after that it will be reviewed too] will affect the quality of end product.

I am simply stating a fact: Freshers are placed on projects as Shadow Resources.
Yes or no, Ravish?
Joe
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Experienced American workers are being laid off because projects are being outsourced

I share your thoughts on this.
You can try anything to stop so but please dont "malign" the Indian IT idustry in order to do save your colleagues job.
You can pressure your Govt. You can start working in competition with Indian IT industry with even lower rates. You can drive US people to go and work in India.
You do what you feel to do but DONT sabotage Indian IT industry with your third party information and based on your assumptions.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
One question at a time.
3. A standard resource for these freshers is the Internet. They will post basic, entry-level questions in forums and mailing lists looking for answers on how to write the code you are paying for.
Ravish: Only God knows what do you mean by this.
If an Indian wont ask then anyone else who is WORKING as programmer any where else will ask this question.
What is your point by saying that newbie questions are asked. [though you have tried a lot to say something and it was understood by none.]

This is a simple English statement. Freshers are working on projects, projects which customers are paying for. They ask questions about how to do those projects on the Internet, in mailing lists and forums.
Yes or no?
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
4. If you want experienced developers on your project, you must request this and have it spelled out in your contract. You can (and should) interview them yourself. This will cost more.
Ravish: I dont know, how can interviewing a candidate cost more.
AW if they are ready to pay more[as per you] for "quality work" then what is your problem.

It's not the interviewnig that costs, it's getting non-freshers. To get non-freshers on your project, you must ask for them, per Teri. Teri says you can interview these people. Also per Teri asking for non-freshers will cost more.
Yes or no?
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
You can try anything to stop so but please dont "malign" the Indian IT idustry in order to do save your colleagues job.
You want to know what's really funny about this, Ravish? My original article really wasn't very anti-outsourcing. My primary focus was to end the abuse of visas. I would have been perfectly content to end the H-1B and L-1 visas, and not really say much of anything about outsourcing, since in my mind it's pretty self-limiting anyway.
But the vicious personal attacks by people here have caused me to take a closer look at the outsourcing issue and realize that you folks are doing what America did in the 90's - throwing tons of inexperienced bodies at as many projects as you can with no thought to future maintenance problems, standards, anything like that.
And now that I see it, I realize that outsourcing itself is a danger to the world economy. So, as I take up the fight against outsourcing, remember that you have only yourselves to blame.


Joe
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Oh sorry Joe, I did not know you were there ..
Nice to see you at this hour
In my last post I said "as much as 50% or more". Are you saying that all projects have less than 50% freshers? Are you in fact saying anything at all relevant to the four statements I made?
Yes, you are right.
I am saying that all projects have less(very less) than 50% fresher.
I intend to quote those four statements as the summary of the opinions on this forum.
But your summary was wrong.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Ravish: Yes, you are right.
I am saying that all projects have less(very less) than 50% fresher.

Then you are saying Teri is wrong.
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Nice to see you at this hour
Actually, I'm going to bed. It's about 01:00 here. I'll return in a few hours.
Joe
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
One question at a time.
Joe

I like this. In this way we will be able to discuss better. I wish you will correct me where ever I am wrong.
I am simply stating a fact: Freshers are placed on projects as Shadow Resources.
Joe, as I said, if this is the thing which you want to say, then no one will deny the fact that fresher do work.
BUT, if one use this statement to prove the point that because of fresher quality of end product suffers and to improve quality there should be no outsorcing then YES, I object this. I object because it is not the case.
Yes or no, Ravish?
As I said earlier. No one will deny.
And qulaity does not affect at all.
And these fresher after 2-3 yrs will be presented as experts also.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Joe, I have work ..
Would like to catch you when you will get up and I will also done with my job.
good night.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
The mark of good code is not whether it works when delivered. Good code is easy to modify by someone who has never seen it before. This is a primary difference between your philosophy and mine, and the reason I don't want newbies on my code.
Joe

Oh I missed this.
Joe, there is no difference in our philosphy.
When I say quality end product. I mean the same. Code should be readable, easy to maintain and easy to understand with proper commenting and obviously the best logic to solve the problem.`
Varun Khanna
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2002
Posts: 1400

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Well, I base my definition on what the people here have told me.

Well. I will advise you to go on your judgement (and you have that power) !!! Meeting more people and listening to what they are saying doesn' necessary means that you are developing right opinion & often interpretation problem do arises in such cases.

Teri To explained it as follows: I started as one of them. They are right from college and don't know anything. I didn't either. And they do lots of stupid things. Just like I did.

Believe me, these stupid thing are not always literally stupid !!! I have seen fresher giving new direction to project by doing stupid things as Teri mentioned.

Most people here seem to agree with this assessment: freshers are kids right out of college who have completed a computer science curriculum but who have no experience in developing real world applications.

Do you believe that for delivering goods in SOFTWARE you need to be experienced? and if you are inexperienced you can't do it at all?
If you think its YES ... then you may discontinue reading my next lines.
A fresher might have asked a basic question in a forum, but are you sure once getting the answer he continued to struggled? I have seen several incidences where after getting the basic, the fresher has performed as good as any other people (infact on occasion have performed better than experienced).
There are numerous other reasons that I can quote to support this: There willingness to learn new things is better then anyone, they are, in general, open to flexible hours and often put more hours than required. They are more loyal to companies as they don�t are not yet aware of the thing called �job change�. The frustration level is always low in fresher. Plus they are not choosy about the allocated work.
Infact, I am not aware if you have worked with freshers but they are the one who keep experienced people like us on the toes as they have entered in the world with latest technologies around and they are more familiar with stuff (now I don� think at the age of 56 yrs. you will still be learning the updated technologies and syntax).
The problem is that you are looking **only** that aspect of a fresher which supports your argument, which is wrong. It�s not the case always!!!
Anyways, I will not deviate from the original discussion topic, but just wanted you to let you know about these facts.
[ December 01, 2003: Message edited by: V�r�n Kha�n� ]
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Then you are saying Teri is wrong.
Joe

I dont know what does Teri mean with word "Tons"
But the figures he had given were very correct, "3-10 depending on the team size." If in the team of 20-30 there are 1-3 fresher then I dont think quality can suffer and neither it suffers becuase after the reviews, he learned were he has made mistakes.
And this is the way he would be a professional in 2-3 yrs.
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Joe, here is my take on your synopsis. Now tell where what you think is unfair.
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
How about this as a synopsis of the discussion so far:
1. Companies that hire offshore outsourcing firms should be aware that a large percentage (in some cases as much as 50% or more) of the people assigned to any given project are normally "freshers" - new programmers directly out of university with little or no application experience.

Misleading phrases: Large percentage.
Reason: Not necessarily true. This is not an industry rule. It depends on a lot of factors such as client requirements, company size, resource availability etc. It is possible that a small company may not have any fresher in the whole company. So your generalization is invalid.
The valid statement could be:
1. Companies that hire offshore outsourcing firms on project basisshould be aware that inexperienced people may be assigned on their project to assist the experienced people.

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

2. These freshers are sometimes assigned to your project and are not billed and don't even appear on the project records. These "Shadow Resources" have no knowledge of your business, and no interaction with you or your users.

Misleading phrases: have no knowledge of your business.
Reason: Not necessarily true. It is not an industry rule that all freshers do not necessarily know anything about client's business. For example, an MBA graduate may know a lot of financing than a 4yr seasoned java programmer. Corollary: It is also not necessarily true that an experienced programmer has a lot of business knowledge.
Correct statement could be:
These freshers are sometimes assigned to your project to asist experienced resourced and are not billed and may or may not even appear on the project records. These "Shadow Resources" may or may not have any knowledge of your business, and may or may not interact with you or your users.

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

3. A standard resource for these freshers is the Internet. They will post basic, entry-level questions in forums and mailing lists looking for answers on how to write the code you are paying for.

Misleading phrases: They will post...
Reason: Not necessarily true. Nobody is forcing anybody to post anything. A newbie may as well take help from his experienced team mate and none will be the wiser. When you've already mentioned that a fresher may not have any business (or even technical) knowledge, it is imperative that he will take take help from somewhere. May be he'll even read your book So this statement of yours is, at best, inconsequencial.

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

4. If you want experienced developers on your project, you must request this and have it spelled out in your contract. You can (and should) interview them yourself. This will cost more.

Misleading phrases: If you want experienced...
Reason: Your statement implies that no experienced people will be there on your project if you don't request it. This is definitely wrong.
Correct statement could be:
If you are paying on per resource basis, and if you want only experienced developers on your project, you must have it spelled out in your contract. You can (and should) interview them yourself. This will cost more.
In one of your earlier replies to me, you mentioned that the whole purpose of outsourcing is to get it done cheaper and if you go via 4th point above, it will cost more.
Yes, it will cost more. But still cheaper than getting it done onsite. That's the reason such deals are also quite common.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Teri To:
Joe, here is my take on your synopsis. Now tell where what you think is unfair.

Well said
 
It is sorta covered in the JavaRanch Style Guide.
 
subject: Visas and Outsourcing