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Some facts about India

Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
Talk to your fellow religionist in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

People like you always associate an Indian muslim to Pakistan or Bangladesh thats why the problem always increase. I agree that an average muslim never think pakistan as an enemy, but few problems which I would like to state which I've faced in India as a muslim, When I got a job in Delhi then I was searching for some accomodation but I was not able to get house in most of the delhi colonies due to the fact that I was a muslim(and the always try to associate me with pakistan) but all peoples are not like that ultimately I got a house owned by a hindu family. Same thing happened in my academics and in my job also my colleagues always teased me whenever there is a cricket match between India and Pakistan but these are small things and I dont bother about that. I know what Sankar,Pakka and people like them say are not their words they are just repeating what their fellow extremist in RSS are saying. Same thing goes with Muslims also most of the muslim population is uneduated and what they say is the repetition of their religious extremist
One incidence during my ragging when I was doing my post graduation one of my senior was ragging me in the name of religion he said that you muslims are from pakistan and you killed my grand father during partition, I said I was not even borned when the partition take place, One thing I asked him if you are an hindu have you ever read gita I said I am more hindu than you because I've completely read the Gita after that he was one of my best friend
Thing is that we have to make freinds across faiths to decrease the gap beleive me you will always find the person on other side more friendlier than you think

But if I am not mistaken don't muslims have a concept of Ummah, in which they believe that all muslims of the world belong to one country?

I think religious extremist always promote those things of other religion which provoke hatred so they can seperate the people and play the game of divide and rule there are many other things in Islam like people/person from other religion are same no religion is bad and like the meaning of Islam is itself Peace but I am sure you dont know about those things because you never learned about Islam what you are saying is what you have heared.

As I said before, there cannot be any brainwashing if people are educated. Brainwashing happened before when foreign concepts/religions were shoved down the throat of uneducated people.
Even people educated in missionary schools support Sangh because they can now see through their gameplan.

My dear friend this brainwashing is in the roots, try to think beyond that


And I think it would be in the best interest of Sameer and all other Indian muslims like him to take an avid interest in monitoring the growth of this segment.

Well we have to think for National interest first and associate each and every person of this country with this country first and you can see the difference

For past 700 years, Indians (which were mostly Hindus, Buddhists, Jains) were constantly under attack from Islamic forces and then Christian forces.

If you have ever read the history then you should know that whenever there was attack in India it was due to the people and kings who were not united not due to the fact that Hindu religion always talk about peace and other religions are voilent

Another big problem is the inherent aggresiveness and intolerance of these religions
It is the people who are intolearnt and aggresive not the religion.

Hindu/Buddhism/Jain/Sikh (in one camp) and Islam/Christianity (in another camp). No wonder there are clashes. And no wonder there are clashes between Islam and Christainity. Even though both the religions (Islam and Christianity) talk about peace/respect for other religion etc., do they really practice it? I don't think so.

These people are religious extremist and this is also the case with every religion which exist in this world, whoever is the extremist is always voilent whether they are the people from RSS or from Islamic coutries or Christians they all are same. Hindu religion also talk about peace what happened in Gujrat so I am not going to think that Hindus are voilent just because of those voilent extremist.

India invaded China in 1962 although the war
was ended badly for India. One regular army
division not only expelled several most elite
Indian brigades but also entered India for a short period of time.
The Chinese withdrew on its own.

I was just wondering the fact that whatever we learn abou the history is not absolutely true "History was always changed by the people who were the winners " Mr Glen Cai also seems to be the victim of that. There are sveral other people who thins that whatever written in their high School text books is absolutely true.


Originally posted by <Mahatma Gandhi>:
in past,education mean humanity and knowledge.educated people in past pocessed humanity
also.now in india,for a mass educated people having only knowledge(no improvement in humanity and true charector due to education).they are only selfish people with some knowledge in some field,they aquired it for only better living.only these kind of selfish people joining in sangh parivar.a truely eduacated person can never think in communal way.

Very well said Mahatma I am always proud of people like you.
John Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Posts: 2545
so are you saying the history of low caste indian is different from that of high caste?
Mahatma Gandhi
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 07, 2003
Posts: 4
Originally posted by Pakka Desi
please get your facts straight before posting crap

Ravish said a good answer for your questien about mughals.
Originally posted by ravish kumar
Why do you feel shame in accepting that at that time there was no better Hindu king to defeat and rule.

why the people who rebuilding indian history(mughal history)now for rejuvanating people is not caring the recent indian history?.
who killed our beloved leader mahatma gandhi?.
the people who killed mahatma gandhi is now blaming great mughal emporers.
Originally posted by Pakka Desi
And don't use that name. You don't deserve it.

what's wrong with me?.is because that i got some humanity in this present age?.is because that my heart feel sad by seeing innocent people burned with fire alive?.is because that i am not a person who dont think in communal way?.is because that i am not believing the stories teached in sangh parivar branches?.is because that i am not holding 'trishool' and killng people born in minority religeons?.
doubt is increasing indian peoples eyes.a person looks other person with doubt.humen minds are getting isolated by communal toxins.humens are getting divided by religeon/cast basis.they were killing each other.some leaders of sangh parivar getting fruits from this situation.they are planning all things to boost this communal isolation.this is sad sad situation.as a good indian,i feel so sad.
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2002
Posts: 177
Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:

I know what Sankar,Pakka and people like them say are not their words they are just repeating what their fellow extremist in RSS are saying.

While you are free to think so, however, this is not true. I don't believe in everything that RSS says or does. Based on my own experiences and studies, I have my own line.
Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:

Same thing goes with Muslims also most of the muslim population is uneduated and what they say is the repetition of their religious extremist.

This is correct. And the Hindu as well as Muslim leaders should be made to stop politicising the issue and taking advantage of uneducated public.

Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:

I think religious extremist always promote those things of other religion which provoke hatred so they can seperate the people and play the game of divide and rule there are many other things in Islam like people/person from other religion are same no religion is bad and like the meaning of Islam is itself Peace but I am sure you dont know about those things because you never learned about Islam what you are saying is what you have heared.

You have not answered the question. Do they believe in it or not??
Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:

My dear friend this brainwashing is in the roots, try to think beyond that

Well, why do you think so many educated people are with Sangh? I know of many highly educated people (IITians) people (pracharaks) who have not married and given away their plush jobs for Sangh. Why is that? Are they are fools? Is it very easy to brainwash so many educated people?
Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:

If you have ever read the history then you should know that whenever there was attack in India it was due to the people and kings who were not united not due to the fact that Hindu religion always talk about peace and other religions are voilent.

I did not say that India was attacked because of the religion. I said India was attacked by Muslims (for money/land whatever) and after that what they did was horrible. Do you not agree with it?
Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:

It is the people who are intolearnt and aggresive not the religion.

Well, let me prove you wrong right away. People in Afghanistan were the same people in Buddhist times as well as in Islamic time. Why did the same people when they were muslims destryoed Buddhism completely there. Why did not the same people who were Budhhist before expand Buddhism to Iran etc. by force??? It's the same people we are talking about but under the influence of different religion. Or take the case of Parsis. Why didn't Parsis force their religion on Islam instead of the reverse? Parsis are totaly vanished from Iran but they flourished in India in spite of Hinduism. Why is that?
You may deny it for all your life, but there is definitely something there in Islam and Christianity that makes them aggresive and intolerant. History is a proof of that.

Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:

These people are religious extremist and this is also the case with every religion which exist in this world, whoever is the extremist is always voilent whether they are the people from RSS or from Islamic coutries or Christians they all are same. Hindu religion also talk about peace what happened in Gujrat so I am not going to think that Hindus are voilent just because of those voilent extremist.

Why is it that throught out the history of Islam have muslims been extrimist. You show me one place in the world where Muslims lived peacefully with the existing religion (except India of course). And if you can't give any example the you have to accept that Islam in India is different from Islam in Saudi Arabia.
There is no point of bringing Gujrat into this. Unfortunately such incedents will happen because now Hindus are not willing to take any more crap. You show me one incident before independence when Hindu extremists did something like Gujrat. Or prove that Hindu extrimists even existed before independence. You'll find tons of evidence of Hindus being prosecuted by Muslim rulers, but can you find a single incedent when Hindu rulers (For eg. Marathas, who had a big empire in the same time as Aurangzeb) force Muslims to convert? Or put additional taxes?
Only in the past decades this has started happening and it is in response to the centuries of harrasment by the ruling Muslims.
Sameer, You seem to think that all RSS people are against Muslims. I don't hate you. It is not about hate. It is about the rights. It is about taking what is rightfully ours. Or do you think that Ayodhya/Mathura/Kashi do not belong to Hindus? Is it so wrong to ask for just three places out of thousands that Muslims destroyed?

You tend to write about "feel good" anecdotes etc. But they don't prove anything. You must answer the questions that I have raised above in the straight forward way before you try to blame anybody. If I am blaming Muslims/British then I am giving the evidence and the reason.
[ June 08, 2003: Message edited by: Pakka Desi ]

I'm just saying...it's right there!
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2002
Posts: 177
Originally posted by Mahatma Gandhi:

what's wrong with me?.

Because nobody deserves that name except Mahatma Gandhi himself. Are you a Mahatma? Think about it.

is because that i got some humanity in this present age?.is because that my heart feel sad by seeing innocent people burned with fire alive?.is because that i am not a person who dont think in communal way?.is because that i am not believing the stories teached in sangh parivar branches?.is because that i am not holding 'trishool' and killng people born in minority religeons?.
doubt is increasing indian peoples eyes.a person looks other person with doubt.humen minds are getting isolated by communal toxins.humens are getting divided by religeon/cast basis.they were killing each other.some leaders of sangh parivar getting fruits from this situation.they are planning all things to boost this communal isolation.this is sad sad situation.as a good indian,i feel so sad.

It is clear from your post that you are not even an Indian. Your post is just based on newpaper reports from NYTimes. I don't have any intention to respond to you.
Mahatma Gandhi
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 07, 2003
Posts: 4
It is clear from your post that you are not even an Indian. Your post is just based on newpaper reports from NYTimes. I don't have any intention to respond to you.

LOL...i never read NYTimes. i m from chennai.india.
dont be brainwashed.it's not good for us.
Sameer Jamal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870

Well, let me prove you wrong right away. People in Afghanistan were the same people in Buddhist times as well as in Islamic time. Why did the same people when they were muslims destryoed Buddhism completely there. Why did not the same people who were Budhhist before expand Buddhism to Iran etc. by force???


You are talking about Taliban not abt the common Afgani person who does not think in that way , same like in any other place afganistan also have two type of communities Taliban (the Extremist) and Northern Alliance (the liberal one).

You may deny it for all your life, but there is definitely something there in Islam and Christianity that makes them aggresive and intolerant. History is a proof of that.

Every religion or community in this world comprises of extremist and voilent people. Well what about "Kansa", 'Ravan", "Duryodhan" etc were they not aggresive and voilent even Asoka he was a voilent king but he became a tremedous person when he became budhist so should I say that Asoka was voilent just because he was Hindu, it is the inner sense my dear which make the person voilent or nonvoilent not the religion.

Why is it that throught out the history of Islam have muslims been extrimist. You show me one place in the world where Muslims lived peacefully with the existing religion (except India of course). And if you can't give any example the you have to accept that Islam in India is different from Islam in Saudi Arabia.

Again I say that Islam cannot change but I agree that muslim people in India are completely different from those of middle east(I hate those people), they beleive they are the most superior race among the muslims which is not true, even in Islam it is stated that there is no caste creed all people are same.
Indonesia, Malaysia Egypt, Morocco, Gordan, Syria and several other coutries where you find the people of different religion living peacefuly.

Sameer, You seem to think that all RSS people are against Muslims. I don't hate you. It is not about hate. It is about the rights. It is about taking what is rightfully ours.

I think what taliban is to afganistan, what Osama is to the world what Jamate Islami is to the pakistan, RSS is to the India they are all extremist, they are all same, they are all voilent and destructing in nature.
You have not answered the question. Do they believe in it or not??

Yes this is right muslim beleive that all muslims of the world are same and I also have a firm beleif in that, but I also beleive in
"Vasudhev Kutumbakam"


Or do you think that Ayodhya/Mathura/Kashi do not belong to Hindus? Is it so wrong to ask for just three places out of thousands that Muslims destroyed?

This is what the poltician do they make people beleive in this theory, I dont say that this is not correct but you cant blame the present muslim community for what few muslims in the past have done(as ravish has already stated above). This issue should be solved in peace and harmony between the hindu and muslim peoples, not between the hindu and muslim extremist and polticians that is why this is still a issue and will never be solved.

Well, why do you think so many educated people are with Sangh? I know of many highly educated people (IITians) people (pracharaks) who have not married and given away their plush jobs for Sangh. Why is that? Are they are fools? Is it very easy to brainwash so many educated people?

mahatma has already given the answer for that

Sameer, You seem to think that all RSS people are against Muslims

You even dont beleive that Once I was a member of RSS just to know what they think, if you have any doubts then you can see the old registers of RSS in Uttranchal region, Initially they didnt allow me but I insisted so they agree to register me, but i was not able to adjust in that environment so I left.
Only thing I like about RSS is their team work their efforts in increasing their members but if they bring all the communities together I think its the best organisation in this country but they can never do that.
Murasoli Maran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2003
Posts: 193
Originnally posted by Pakka Desi
If I am blaming Muslims/British then I am giving the evidence and the reason.

All evidences are newly created and fake.it's created by sangh parivar to brainwash infedels like you.the history you talks about twisted by sangh parivar recently.sangh parivar is twisting history to make mughals as villains.if mughal kings are as much cruel as u says,why they dont made india as a muslim country?.sangh parivar now blaming mughal kings because they were muslims.that's the only reason.i have studied history in school.i never studied anything wrong about mughal emporers.it's a matter before 15 years.i dont know about the history teached in schools after sangh parivar got power.
Originnally posted by Pakka Desi
You show me one incident before independence when Hindu extremists did something like Gujrat. Or prove that Hindu extrimists even existed before independence.

before independence,you've agreed the fact that there were no communal violance.so when these communal riots started?.and what is the results of these communal riots?.who got power by isolating people?.BJP is now ruling india.they had only 2 seats in parleament before these communal riots.they thinked about getting power and found that communal isolation is best way to get power.so they made stories about babri-mosque and started injecting communal toxins in innocent people's minds.i never heard any story about babri masjid before 15-20 years.suddenly an issue like babri masjid raised.sangh parivar managed to make riots by using babri-mosque story and it's easy to isolate people after riots.they made a network
for brainwashing infedels.it's called RSS shakha(branch).in a RSS shakha they teached how
to use weapons to young followers.by using these followers,they made riots.they managed to isolate people according to religeon and using majority religeon's votes they got power.this is history.
now also they are playing all tactics to hold their power.they are making more riots for making more wounds in peoples minds and using that wounds to inject communal toxins to public.recently in gujarat,more than 2000 people were burn in fire alive.
muslims and christiens are living with fear in india in some states.hindu extreamists are killing them by asking their names.
very recently sangh parivar burned 2 christien missionaries with fire.for what reason??
it's very funny to see that sangh parivar is creating new stories about mughal kings to hide/suppress the reality now happening in india.
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2002
Posts: 177
Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:

This is what the poltician do they make people beleive in this theory, I dont say that this is not correct but you cant blame the present muslim community for what few muslims in the past have done(as ravish has already stated above). This issue should be solved in peace and harmony between the hindu and muslim peoples, not between the hindu and muslim extremist and polticians that is why this is still a issue and will never be solved.

1. I don't think that the present muslim community is to blame for the past misdeeds. But can they not return what is not theirs?
Britishers of 1947 did not conqure India. Does that mean, they should not return it to the Indians afterall?
Again, you are avading the straight answer. You said, "I don't say that this is not correct...". So what is it. It is correct or not?
What is your solution? Do you say that Hindus should forget about all their temples and that's it? So Hindus should compromise and do all the sacrifice for peace? What should Muslims bring to the table? Nothing? What is their responsibility? I expect straight answers. No philosophy please.
2. The example of Taliban and Northern Alliacne that you are giving is irrelevent to the questions that I asked. Same people when Buddhist did not expand their ranks by force. But the same people when became muslim enforced their religion on others. Ghazni/Ghauris were all Afghans. Why is that? What is your explanation about the Parsis in Iran?
BTW, Northern Alliance is also not as liberal as you might believe. It is just a little more liberal than Taliban. I'll look forward to see what they do minorities there. You know what happened to Hindus in Pakistan. Well, they are extinct. Why is that? On the contrary, which religion has become extinct in India?
3. I don't know what "mahatma" said. My questions were directed to you. You answer them. If you want to continue the debate, of course.
Murasoli Maran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2003
Posts: 193
i was Mahatma Gandhi.due to some javaranch naming policy probloms,i've to change my name.i am actually Mahatma Gandhi who posted previous posts.
Originnally posted by Pakka Desi
I don't know what "mahatma" said. My questions were directed to you. You answer them. If you want to continue the debate, of course.

read my post again.
San Su
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 06, 2001
Posts: 313
Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
BTW if you regular visitors of such fanatic sites

LOL.. That shows how "open minded" person you are..
FYI, if you say "I fixed a bug in a program", that means there must have been a bug in that program. If you say someone removed "xyz law" means it must have been there already. You can't remove something which doesn't exist, don't you? So, stop giving some stupid example to prove your points and give a straight answer.
Well.. impotent a.k.a pseudo secular people like you who hell bend on to appease the minorities are the cause of the religious problem in India, not the so called "extremist" or "fanatics". There were/are/will always be "JaiChands" and "Ettappans" in India.
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2002
Posts: 177
Originally posted by Murasoli Maran:

before independence,you've agreed the fact that there were no communal violance.so when these communal riots started?.and what is the results of these communal riots?.who got power by isolating people?.BJP is now ruling india.they had only 2 seats in parleament before these communal riots.they thinked about getting power and found that communal isolation is best way to get power.so they made stories about babri-mosque and started injecting communal toxins in innocent people's minds.i never heard any story about babri masjid before 15-20 years.suddenly an issue like babri masjid raised.sangh parivar managed to make riots by using babri-mosque story and it's easy to isolate people after riots.they made a network
for brainwashing infedels.it's called RSS shakha(branch).in a RSS shakha they teached how
to use weapons to young followers.by using these followers,they made riots.they managed to isolate people according to religeon and using majority religeon's votes they got power.this is history.
now also they are playing all tactics to hold their power.they are making more riots for making more wounds in peoples minds and using that wounds to inject communal toxins to public.recently in gujarat,more than 2000 people were burn in fire alive.
muslims and christiens are living with fear in india in some states.hindu extreamists are killing them by asking their names.
very recently sangh parivar burned 2 christien missionaries with fire.for what reason??
it's very funny to see that sangh parivar is creating new stories about mughal kings to hide/suppress the reality now happening in india.

I read my history 20 years ago. You are just posting the same things again and again singing praise of the mogul rulers. I have listed their problem in my previous post. Why don't you tell me then what were their achievements?
I don't need to read any history book to believe that Moguls destroyed temples. I have seen the back part of the Kashi Vishwanath Temple (In Varanasi) through my own eyes. You can clearly see the temple pillars there. (They don't allow people to go in the back any more. It is sealed off to avoid communal tention.)
History books didn't mention all this in my times. And if you don't believe this, then don't. You want to live in a fools paradise, so be it.
The first step to solve a problem is to accept that there is a problem. And if you don't even take that step, well, good luck to you.
Murasoli Maran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2003
Posts: 193
Originnally posted by Pakka Desi
What is your solution? Do you say that Hindus should forget about all their temples and that's it? So Hindus should compromise and do all the sacrifice for peace? What should Muslims bring to the table? Nothing? What is their responsibility? I expect straight answers. No philosophy please.

Okey.muslims have Taj Mahal,Kutab Minar,lot of proud monuments,a lot of cultural contributions and of cource,an integrated india.india will never be like this if mughals dont integrated india like this.if mughals were not ruled india in past,most of the parts of present india will be part of china or other countries.mughals made india as an integrated country and kept india from other invaders and dont made india as a muslim country.they survived india and gave india a new good look and integrity.what hindu's having to put on table?.
Now you sangh parivar people made a lot of stories.what you people actually aiming by this storybuilding?.to kill all indian muslims and christiens?.
Pakka desi asked a lot of questiens afghanistan and the world to sameer jamal.i am asking you some simple questiens about present india.
1) How sangh parivar got power?.dont fake to yourself.give straight answers.only true answers.no twisting of history.
2)Why sangh parivar killed christien missionaries by burning them alive?.for what reason?.
3)Why sangh parivar killed father of nation Mahatma Gandhi?.
Murasoli Maran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2003
Posts: 193
Originnally posted by Pakka Desi
I don't need to read any history book to believe that Moguls destroyed temples. I have seen the back part of the Kashi Vishwanath Temple (In Varanasi) through my own eyes. You can clearly see the temple pillars there. (They don't allow people to go in the back any more. It is sealed off to avoid communal tention.)
History books didn't mention all this in my times.

Humen is changing a lot with time.recently humens invented 'democracy'.lot of isms are there.socialism,capitalism..a lot.before the invention of these ism's people are ruled by kings.and the criteria for becoming the king is to kill the existing king.it was a test of strength and courage to gain power.and after a king got power,he'll rule all people.the nation is all about his decision.he will do whatever he want to do in his country.whethar it is distroying temple,making temple ..all is under his decision.
this system is not made by muslims.all kings followed this system.because it was the system existed in that era.
may some kings damaged temples.i think it's not because os king's communal thinking.it's due to the wealth contained by that monument.it's only system on that era.people changed with time.king rule ended.now it is reached to 'democracy'
but i am not believing that the monument pakka desi seen is distroyed by mughals.there is a chance of other forces distroying the temple.i suspect sangh parivar.they sometimes distroy temples for making stories and motivating infedels.
Originnally posted by Pakka Desi
You want to live in a fools paradise, so be it.

i am sure that your mind is short of 2000 years and living in fool's paradise.
Originnally posted by Pakka Desi
The first step to solve a problem is to accept that there is a problem.

there are probloms in india now.a lot of probloms due to communal isolation.yes i am keen on present probloms in india.that's why i am repeating my questien to you again.
1) How sangh parivar got power?.dont fake to yourself.give straight answers.only true answers.no twisting of history.
2)Why sangh parivar killed christien missionaries by burning them alive?.for what reason?.
3)Why sangh parivar killed father of nation Mahatma Gandhi?.
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2002
Posts: 177
Originally posted by Murasoli Maran:

Okey.muslims have Taj Mahal,Kutab Minar,lot of proud monuments,a lot of cultural contributions and of cource,an integrated india.india will never be like this if mughals dont integrated india like this.if mughals were not ruled india in past,most of the parts of present india will be part of china or other countries.mughals made india as an integrated country and kept india from other invaders and dont made india as a muslim country.they survived india and gave india a new good look and integrity.what hindu's having to put on table?.
Now you sangh parivar people made a lot of stories.what you people actually aiming by this storybuilding?.to kill all indian muslims and christiens?.
Pakka desi asked a lot of questiens afghanistan and the world to sameer jamal.i am asking you some simple questiens about present india.
1) How sangh parivar got power?.dont fake to yourself.give straight answers.only true answers.no twisting of history.
2)Why sangh parivar killed christien missionaries by burning them alive?.for what reason?.
3)Why sangh parivar killed father of nation Mahatma Gandhi?.

It seems that you are not at all willing to use any brains while discussing. So this will be my last reply to you.
1. I already noted that Tajmahal was because of Mugals. All they did was build tombs. That too over the temples. I would rather have India to be known to the world for Newton, and Einstien than for tombs of dead kings.
So you tell me what was the contribution of Mughals in science and technology. What was their contribution in the progress of India with respect to the world? What is the contribution of the Moguls in the field of Arts, Literature and world trade?
2. Your point that if it were not for Mugals, India would have been attacked by the chinese, is totally ridiculous. It is like saying, if british did not rule India, French would have. Or if I do not kill you, you would be dead after some years anyway. What do you want to prove???
In fact, the East India Company established their roots in Mughal rule itself. And Mugal were so stupid, they did not even realize it. So the point that you making, (if it were not mugals, it would be chinese) is actually proving to be against you. Mugals could not protect India against the british. The only reason was under the mugal rule, India was technologically far more backward than the british.
Further, who were the people who fought the british first? They were the Hindus, Rani Laxmi Bai, in case you forgot. Who started the revolt of 1857? Tatya Tope, the marathas. Not the mugals.
I hope this is enough for you to realize what was the contribution of the mugals.
2. Why do you keep saying, " kill all the muslims etc."??? When did I say that? Did you read my solution? You don't have any answers to my questions and are making really stupid arguments.

Now let me answer your questions in the hope that you'll try to talk logic instead of rhetoric.
1. RSS got power by raising the communal sentiments. So what? Did not Muslim league carve out Pakistan out of India on religious line? Congress was ruling by appeasing muslims. BJP did just the opposite.What's wrong in that??
2. Once and for all, RSS did not kill the christian missionaries. Locals did it because he was carrying out conversions. My stand has been very clear on this. I do not support that but I do not have any sympathy for the missionary beyond that he met a tragic death. It is a risk of doing the kind of business he was doing.
3. Sangh parivar did not kill Mahatma Gandhi. Nathuram Godse did. He thought that Mahatam Gandhi was responsible for the division of India and the killing of Hindus in pakistan. That was not for religion. So there is no point in bring it here. RSS did not and does not support him.
Now, if you have the guts, answer my questions.
San Su
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 06, 2001
Posts: 313
Originally posted by Murasoli Maran:
[QB]
before independence,you've agreed the fact that there were no communal violance.so when these communal riots started?.and what is the results of these communal riots?.who got power by isolating people?.BJP is now ruling india.they had only 2 seats in parleament before these communal riots.they thinked about getting power and found that communal isolation is best way to get power.so they made stories about babri-mosque and started injecting communal toxins in innocent people's minds.i never heard any story about babri masjid before 15-20 years.suddenly an issue like babri masjid raised.sangh parivar managed to make riots by using babri-mosque story and it's easy to isolate people after riots.they made a network
for brainwashing infedels.it's called RSS shakha(branch).in a RSS shakha they teached how
to use weapons to young followers.by using these followers,they made riots.they managed to isolate people according to religeon and using majority religeon's votes they got power.this is history.

You didn't study anything wrong about Muslim emperors because it was delibrated removed from the history book. Let me ask you this. Have you ever looked at the independent source about how Aurangazip ruled India? How he ordered the destruction of major Hindu temples? How he ordered not to give permission to build new temples? How he imposed islamic laws on everyone?
Let me ask you this. Today every kids in India study in great length about how Akbar was so great and how he was so tolerent towards the Hindus and other religious people and How he removed the religious tax imposed by the previous rulers. Now use your brain and apply the logic here. If all the muslim rulers are nice and so tolerant then why Akbar was spotlighted? Does history book teach you who imposed the religous tax on non believers in the first place? And does it teach you in what length the islamic law was imposted on other religous people? No.. reason? What are you hiding and from whom? If you say it might create communal tension now, I will try to leave it here. But trying to cover this up and saying nothing happend and all is well is Bullshit.
Murasoli Maran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2003
Posts: 193
A little late because i slept yesterday.it was sleeping time in india.now i am ready for brainwashed communal infedels.
Originally posted by Shankar Subbiah
You didn't study anything wrong about Muslim emperors because it was delibrated removed from the history book.

I am quite sure that you have learned all these from sangh parivar(RSS) shakhas.as i'he told you earlier they are making false stories and twisting history to make mughals as villains to inject communal toxins to infedels like you.I am not a fool to believe what sangh parivar says.because i know that they are twisting history now for only for power.for gaining power,killers of mahatma gandhi will do anything.they even distroy hindu temples for motivating people.because the aim is power,the way is communal riots.what karsevaks(brainwashed infedels used for making riots) recently said?.they blamed their leaders because they found later that leaders were deceptive to them.
Who removed from history books?.why?.what you are saying?.Whatever simple stories you are saying about mughals is false.sangh parivar is now twisting history.the reason is simple.they need stories to brainwash infedels.so they made mughals as villains because mughals were muslims.it's not fair to blame mughals.mughals did a lot to india.they integrated india and gave india stability and made india as an integral nation.and they never made india as a muslim nation.they were very nice kings to india.this is reality.all stories taught by sangh parivar shakhas is intented to make communal riots and utimately,for power.
Originally posted by Pakka Desi
Once and for all, RSS did not kill the christian missionaries. Locals did it because he was carrying out conversions. My stand has been very clear on this. I do not support that but I do not have any sympathy for the missionary beyond that he met a tragic death. It is a risk of doing the kind of business he was doing.

It's quite clear and all newspapers reported that sangh parivar killed christien missionaries.dont make dark by closing your eyes.
Originally posted by Pakka Desi
Sangh parivar did not kill Mahatma Gandhi. Nathuram Godse did. He thought that Mahatam Gandhi was responsible for the division of India and the killing of Hindus in pakistan. That was not for religion. So there is no point in bring it here. RSS did not and does not support him.

Nathuram godse was an RSS follower.Now RSS may try to make godese out of RSS.because it may affect it's power counrry.He killed Mahatma Gandhi.Dont twist history.why you sangh parivar people dont raising the fact of Mahatma Gandhi's murder.study about our beloved leader's murder instead of making stories about mughals if you have any sence of desh-bhakthi(love to nation)and study on recent history and happenings in india.
Think as a humen.put aside your communal thoughts.do we need this communal isolation?.now an indian is looking another indian with doubt.communal toxins sucking humen thoughts.people
are becoming animals to kill the fellow indian by burning them alive.everywhere people are isolated by religeon/caste.they are fighting each other.think about present india.think about the lives burned alive in gujarat.Indian minds are shrinking.it's religeon first.then cast.then family.then individual selfishness.they cant tolerate another.there is no values.only cast matters.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Glen Cai:

The Chinese withdrew on its own.

Its shame as being Indian but its truth, China still occupies a large part in Arunanchal Pradesh as Pakistan occupies a 2/3 Kashmir.


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
Ravish,
1. I did not say Hindustan == Hiduh+sthan. I said, Hindusthan == hinduh + sthan.

And thats what I am saying.
There is no word Hindusthan.
The only word is Hindustan. And I am proud to use Hindustan.
As I have mentioned in earlier thread, I dont like if someone tries to malign Urdu. Urdu is language of sohpistecated people and let it be.
Please dont try to coin new word HindustHan. You might be feeling shame in using Urdu and try to convert all words in Hindi but sorry its impossible because you yourself dont know which word is Urdu and which is Hindi. Today what hindi is spoken, more than 50% words are urdu word as 25% words are english.
for 2nd point I will back after some time..
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
OK guys peace ....
Now my final question to Sankar, Pakka Desi.
OK, for the time period I am agreeing with you that our history was twisted.
Mughals/Muslim ruler were really bad. They did all they can do to humiliate hindus ?
Now what do you want ??
Now what should be done ?
I hope I will get answer to my question.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Pakka Desi:

While the west was having Industrial Revolution,

I could not stop myself....
I would surely like to know the period you think was/is Industrial Revolution period ???
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
You see what India's problem is? They are so busy fighting among themselves, you can invade and rule them, anytime....
Mere desh-premiyon...
Tum aapas me lad baithe to desh ko kaun sambhalega
Koi baharwala apne ghar se hame nikalega...
Think about that.
Prakash Dwivedi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2002
Posts: 452
stop fighting like kids(or politicians),
and Sameer couldn't you find a better place for crying.
Also this a Java forum(and related technology) and even in Meaningless Drivel is says "A place to talk about fun stuff " and i dont find any fun here.
if this doe not stops here what we will be discussing next ? probably "who forms next govt NDA or congress?"


Prakash Dwivedi (SCJP2, SCWCD, SCBCD)
"Failure is not when you fall down, Its only when you don't get up again"
Murasoli Maran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2003
Posts: 193
Originally posted by Ravish Kumar
Now what do you want ??

most of brainwashed infedels thinking that to kill all muslims and christiens living in india then make india as an hindu nation.some thinking someother ways.some dont know what they want actually.
there are some people who know exactly what they want.this people are leaders of sangh parivar.they made use of these silly infedels and enjoying their lifes.but now some brainwashed infedels also realising the true intention of their leaders.recently some karsevaks(the people trained for riots)gave their views against their leaders on babri-mosque issue.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
2)Why sangh parivar killed christien missionaries by burning them alive?.for what reason?.
Dont beleive everything you read in P-sec newspapers(i.e almost all english language newspapers).You might remember there was beating case of an american missionary recenlty, and how congress started maligning Sangh for it..it seems if anyting happens to minority then sangh is to be blamed ...the truth was one tribal girl was raped and they were beaten bcos of that..here r the links read it yourself
http://mumbai.indymedia.org/newswire/display/47/index.php
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030118/nation.htm#3
but you prpobably dont know it..bcos these so called national papers give only small space to the truth and remove them as soon as possible compare it with duration of false report they were circulating, implicating Sangh as the wrong doer
You only talk about the muslims and christians victims what about Hindus ?? Christians are killing hindus in north east..and your SO called good missionaries are helping them in their crusade(if you search newspaper sites you will find many reports about it)Even your beloved Gandhi was against Conversion and so was Shri Vivekananda.
and about Patriotic Musilm, ask anyone about Israeli defence ties with India and they will answer its a ploy of Hindu Govt(BJP)to undermine muslims.Isreal has provide indian army with the efficient equipment to check millitant crossing LOC.Israeli eqipment helped india during Kargil war to flush out pakis. Go and read praful bidwai aka the king of your kind(P-SECs)what he has to say about India-Israel relations. Muslims feel so much pain for their terrorist muslim brothers in palestine but nothing for their fellow country men in Kashmir."Hindus leave kashmir or face the consequences" was played continously in the mosques. I wonder how many muslims condemned it and cried for them afterall its permitted to kill kafirs.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
You see what India's problem is? They are so busy fighting among themselves, you can invade and rule them, anytime....
Mere desh-premiyon...
Tum aapas me lad baithe to desh ko kaun sambhalega
Koi baharwala apne ghar se hame nikalega...
Think about that.

yes, bilkul theek bola.Sala chowmiyao maje ley raha hoga..mene soccha chup bethoo magar yeh log chutiya pan dikhai jare hai..ab sab chup betho behas karni hai to PM bejh kar karo..kya samjhe na..apunko PM nahi bejh sakta kyonki javaranch ke khate me apna naam he nahich hai ree..chalo sab shanti se bethoo aur mr.abdul kalam ka biography padke kuch desh ke liye karo
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Desi Bhai
Aadab Bajata Hoon.
Samjha Kya .. Apun Duniya Dekhela Hai. Aur Duniya Mein Kaun Kya Karelia Hee Apun Ko Sab Pata Hai. Ghat Ghat Ka Pani Piala Hai Apun.
Faltu Ke Chak-Chak Kaun Shuru Karela, Tere Ko Malum.
Toh Ab Apun point Par Aata Hai.

Dont beleive everything you read in P-sec newspapers(i.e almost all english language newspapers).

FYI. I read more than one paper [I also wonder from where I get time.]
Currently I subscribed to TOI and The Hindu.
The Hindu you must be knwing suppose to be pro RSS paper and TOI follows psuedo-securialism.

Even your beloved Gandhi was against Conversion and so was Shri Vivekananda.
For conversion .. read my pevious post some where in this thread.
and about Patriotic Musilm, ask anyone about Israeli defence ties with India and they will answer its a ploy of Hindu Govt(BJP)to undermine muslims.
What was the RSS view on Iraq war.. should I need to tell.
RSS is no less than any uneducated muslim. But irony is that RSS has some highly qualified people also.
Isreal has provide indian army with the efficient equipment to check millitant crossing LOC.
Dont talk like cogress, who was Ga-Ga over use of bofors.
"Hindus leave kashmir or face the consequences" was played continously in the mosques.
WHat RSS is doing that I also know.
I wonder how many muslims condemned it and cried for them afterall its permitted to kill kafirs.
To listen muslims first remove your hands from your ear and come out of your ghetto.
They are so busy fighting among themselves, you can invade and rule them, anytime....

That time has gone. Do you think, anyone is planning to suicide
and Sameer couldn't you find a better place for crying.

And you could not find any better place to preach.
Someone comes and say something abt me so I will first reply and then think of place.
And thats what he did.....
Could not you tell this by PM.
First see what you are doing then tell others what should be done.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by <desi_bhai>:
yes, bilkul theek bola.Sala chowmiyao maje ley raha hoga..mene soccha chup bethoo magar yeh log chutiya pan dikhai jare hai..ab sab chup betho behas karni hai to PM bejh kar karo..kya samjhe na..apunko PM nahi bejh sakta kyonki javaranch ke khate me apna naam he nahich hai ree..chalo sab shanti se bethoo aur mr.abdul kalam ka biography padke kuch desh ke liye karo

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar
Aadab Bajata Hoon.
Samjha Kya .. Apun Duniya Dekhela Hai. Aur Duniya Mein Kaun Kya Karelia Hee Apun Ko Sab Pata Hai. Ghat Ghat Ka Pani Piala Hai Apun.
Faltu Ke Chak-Chak Kaun Shuru Karela, Tere Ko Malum.
Toh Ab Apun point Par Aata Hai.

This is an old one we haven't had to mention in awhile, however.... One of the lesser mentioned rules here at the ranch is that posts must be made in English. This is so that people of all cultures and languages can communicate and establish dialogue, and so that our moderators can moderate. Posting messages in other languages without providing an English translation only serves the purpose to excluding portions of our membership from taking part in certain conversations, as well as making it difficult for moderators to properly perform their duties. As such, postings made that are not in English are subject to deletion.
An old thread on the subject.
[ June 09, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2002
Posts: 177
It's getting boring really. Nobody is interested in having a merit based logical discussion it seems.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Sorry for inconvenience...
Here is translation :
bilkul theek bola.
Sala chowmiyao maje ley raha hoga..
mene soccha chup bethoo magar yeh log chutiya pan dikhai jare hai..
ab sab chup betho behas karni hai to PM bejh kar karo..
kya samjhe na..
apunko PM nahi bejh sakta kyonki javaranch ke khate me apna naam he nahich hai ree..
chalo sab shanti se bethoo aur mr.abdul kalam ka biography padke kuch desh ke liye karo

You are right.
Chineese is having fun.
I thought I wont say anything but now they are talking non-sense.
Now everyone, please keep quite and if you want to debate then do it through PM.
Do you understand.,..
You cant send PM to me as I dont have account in JR.
Now everyone maintain please and read biography of Dr Abdul Kalam and do something for Country.

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

Aadab Bajata Hoon.
Samjha Kya .. Apun Duniya Dekhela Hai. Aur Duniya Mein Kaun Kya Karelia Hee Apun Ko Sab Pata Hai. Ghat Ghat Ka Pani Piala Hai Apun.
Faltu Ke Chak-Chak Kaun Shuru Karela, Tere Ko Malum.
Toh Ab Apun point Par Aata Hai.

Hello
Did you understand.. I have seen world. And I know what is happening in the world. I have been lot of places.
You must be knowing who has started al this.
So now I will come to the point.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
The Hindu you must be knwing suppose to be pro RSS paper
LOL ravish are u serious..The Hindu being PRo RSS..its anti Sangh
What was the RSS view on Iraq war.. should I need to tell.
RSS is no less than any uneducated muslim. But irony is that RSS has some highly qualified people also.

RSS or VHP they are two different organization i only know abt VHP..they were supporting BUSH
Dont talk like cogress, who was Ga-Ga over use of bofors.
i am not.no one can dispute israel superiority in militrary Electronics..can u get anything better then Phalcon..they are the best like french r in Submarines.

To listen muslims first remove your hands from your ear and come out of your ghetto.
This is what i see mostly about indian muslims
June 21, 2000; The Asian Age: The Students' Islamic Movement of India, a frontal organisation of the Jamaat-e-Islami, has started a campaign to prepare Muslim minorities for a full blown jihad against Hindus...
September 13; The Times of India: Ask how peace would prevail if the [Ayodhya] site remained disputed, and [SIMI's Khalid Shaikh] says, "Peace will come only when Islam rules."

On March 29 this year, a Mumbai crime branch team went to the majority-Muslim Padgah village near Thane to arrest Sakib Abdul Hamid Nachen, a SIMI activist involved in the Ghatkopar blast. When they were taking Nachen towards the jeep, a mob -- including women -- surrounded the jeep and prevented the police from taking him. This is what Raj means by "critical mass."
On May 3, two militant training camps were unearthed on hilltops near Mumbai; all the blasts-accused had visited the camps for giving training in use of firearms. The camps were being used for the past 2 years for training jihadis. Who trained in them? Another PhD professor like Dr Abdul Mateen? Another NDA lecturer like Anwar Ali...?
Maybe you know people like Abdul kalam ..Ahmed H Hussain of MY India..
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1030606/asp/nation/story_2041569.asp
but they are in minority and ..hope they could change something..
Murasoli Maran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2003
Posts: 193
Originally posted by <desi_bhai>:
but you prpobably dont know it..bcos these so called national papers give only small space to the truth and remove them as soon as possible compare it with duration of false report they were circulating, implicating Sangh as the wrong doer

so you are saying that all newspapers blaming sangh parivar.why?.for what reason?.english newspapers in india is doing a fair job.and i reads 3-5 newspapers daily.i cannot believe what hindu-extreamists tought in sangh parivar branches.because i dont want to be a communal animal.it's clearly visible from sangh parivar supporter's posts that communal toxins are severely injected to their heads.

Originally posted by Pakka desi
It's getting boring really. Nobody is interested in having a merit based logical discussion it seems.

Ravish speaks like a person without much communal prejudices and thinks straight.Pakka desi speaks like a person compleately brainwashed by hindu extreamists.and thinks always in hindu communal way.
Murasoli Maran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2003
Posts: 193
All communal parties talk in the way of stories and evidences.they make historical stories against their opponents and present with lot of emotions to ignite the communal prejudice in innocent peoples minds.they'll continuesely teach them and brainwash their minds.All terrorists are doing the same thing.if you go and ask to an islamic terrorist,about the reason of becoming a terrorist,he will also provide you a lot of stories and evedences and paper clippings.they are also brainwashed by their extremists.
so think apart from these stories and think about what happening in india now and who is taking benefit from current situation and who actually needs communal isolation.all thoughts will end up in one answer.that is sangh parivar.i am not forgetting islamic terrorists like jamate-islami.but they are having no/small influence in indian society.
what this sangh parivar actually needs?.to kill all muslims and christiens?.is that possible?.even though they are minority,they are very large in number.more than 30 crores of people in india is by minority religeons.isolating them is not practical.
communal isolation will never be good for a country like india.with a large density of population,it's very sensitive to communal riots.and this evil party(sangh) used this opportunity and made india like a hell.only for some peoples sake for power.sangh parivar leaders are enjoying now.but their enjoy will not last long.infedels of their party is now started to give plea against them.
the best way to raise india is gandhism.based on truth and 'ahimsa'.why we are hesitating to follow the leader like Mahatma Gandhi?.is due to lack of braintoxicating stories?.gandhism is based on truth.truth is the strongest weapon.if we follow Mahatma Gandhi,india will flourish.read about gandhism.think about simplicity in life.leave 'trishool'.think about the power of truth.and we can make a better india.come on..be a part of a new india.a joyfull india.
Chitra Kumar
Greenhorn

Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 12
Very very rare to see a Gandhian these days in India. Every time I see the politicians pay homage to Gandhi I can't but help reflect on how low we as a nation have come to. It's very difficult to understand Gandhi for people who are inclined to resort to violence to settle issues. I don't want to add much to this thread as I feel that we are washing our dirty laundry in public and possibly making people from other countries wonder why we fight with each other so much. Maybe in another group....
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
LOL ravish are u serious..The Hindu being PRo RSS..its anti Sangh
Have you read their Editorial. OR you were reading only Sunday Magazine
RSS or VHP they are two different organization i only know abt VHP..they were supporting BUSH
I know how much these two are different.
My uncle holds a State level post in RSS. Lot of state level activities start from my uncle's home. So please dont tell me what is the difference.
i am not.no one can dispute israel superiority in militrary Electronics..can u get anything better then Phalcon..they are the best like french r in Submarines.
WHo is disputing it ??
This is what i see mostly about indian muslims
June 21, 2000; The Asian Age: The Students' Islamic Movement of India, a frontal organisation of the Jamaat-e-Islami, has started a campaign to prepare Muslim minorities for a full blown jihad against Hindus...

Should I give you any cutting of Bajarang Dal ??
"Peace will come only when Islam rules."
VHP is not singing any different song.

On March 29 this year, a Mumbai crime branch team went to the majority-Muslim Padgah village near Thane to arrest Sakib Abdul Hamid Nachen, a SIMI activist involved in the Ghatkopar blast. When they were taking Nachen towards the jeep, a mob -- including women -- surrounded the jeep and prevented the police from taking him. This is what Raj means by "critical mass."
If I am not wrong its Shiv Sena which helped Sanjay Dutt to release from Tada and at that time 4 more people were released because law changed for Sanju Baba. What is the difference betn Menon and Sanju baba. Both were involved Bombay blast ?
All the blasts-accused had visited the camps for giving training in use of firearms.
Why blast happend you also know very well.. who did it you know very well.. whats your point.
but they are in minority and ..hope they could change something..
Have you seen Sarfarosh ??
Anupam Sinha
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 13, 2003
Posts: 1088
Hi all
Well I totally agree with Chitra. The title of the post is "Some facts about India". It started on well but then I guess was lost somewhere. But then I also think that people should get rid of any misconceptions they may be having for any religion or for that matter anything.
Think about it
How many hindu politicians have actually done anything in favour of the hindus, but themselves and similarly how many muslims policticians have done in favour of muslims but themselves.
Why is that sometime or the other it is one or the other religion which comes to the fore as against another religion.
Why can people in other parts of world live hapily with people of many different religion.
Most importantly : - How many times the political parties have used this religion issuse as poll issuse.
They want your vote be it a hindu or a muslim voting. They are not concerned.
[ June 09, 2003: Message edited by: Anupam Sinha ]
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Chitra Kumar:
possibly making people from other countries wonder why we fight with each other so much.

Are we fighting ..
Thats other uniquness/weakness
 
permaculture playing cards
 
subject: Some facts about India