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Change Of Faith

Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Sriraj Rajaram: Racism? Segregation? Greedy capitalists, too? In the 21st century? I think the US should invade US and install a military government there until Americans come to their senses.
Nothing wrong with having greedy capitalists, but yes, you got a point, we certainly have our share of problems originating from dark ages. Maybe we all should be invaded by alliens until we come to our senses?

It's called an H1-B visa applicant from India


42
Tonny Tssagovic
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Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 226
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
[b]TT:
Possible. What do you mean by "a damn difficult situation"? Could you give, say, three examples?

Well, It does not matter Map, I just meant a situation of life/death.. just like the one I mentioned in a desert, or in the middle of the ocean (and nothing by sharks 50 miles around u) .. Anyway, I don't think that one needs to be in sucha situation to ask God for help.. But please forget about this question, and proceed with the next one.. if there are creatures, there must be a creator. :roll:
[ January 16, 2004: Message edited by: Tonny Tssagovic ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Joe King:
As for why we haven't seen any signs of life out there.... well, given all the "1%"'s I was mentioning above, the planets with life on them are probably hugely spread out accross the universe.

That is certainly a theory. Observationally we can state that life is on one and only one planet in the universe. The problem with your "1%"'s is that they are pure guesswork. One might as well replace "1%" with "50%" or "0%". You will get the same level of scientific accuracy.


Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
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Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Joe King:
Anyway, I saw in the news today that (in the UK) church attendence is down by 4% over the last year (I'm trying to find a URL). I wonder if this means that less people are religious now, or less people feel the need to go to church.
I think it has more to do with people being angry at the Anglican Church. Recent policies have even driven some Anglican priests into the Catholic Church.
Tony Alicea
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Joined: Jan 30, 2000
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    5


...if there are creatures, there must be a creator.

And what created the "creator"?
Tony Alicea
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Joined: Jan 30, 2000
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    5
An easy answer, and not only that but one that by itself does not violate any known and accepted laws of Physics (the only laws we have) is:
IT always existed. IT has no beginning or end.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
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... IT just gets outsourced.
Or was that a different IT?


"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Tony Alicea
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    5
For those who want to waste... er... I meant, utilize their time thinking about these things, I think that "god" doesn't know everything and that BY DESIGN, it introduced (I am aware that I am suggesting a WILL behind this all shit which I myself find hard to believe but... I'm going to say it anyway) the Uncertainty Principle and made it a fabric of Nature.
When I try (not often thank 'god'!) to explain it to "lay" people (by "lay" I mean not versed in the BASICS of modern physics), they say that we just can't measure the position and velocity of an elementary particle, BOTH accurately at the same time because we don't have the technology, the instruments that can measure both quantities accurately (with no uncertainty) at the same time.
The shortest way for me to explain it, always causing a friendly problem very fast, is when I tell them that NOT EVEN GOD could predict it. AT least not better than a professional gambler in Las Vegas would. Because it's NOT BUILT IN Nature. It was designed that way. OK, forget it if you don't like the 'design' part of it, that is the way our observable Universe just works, whether one likes it or not.
Making a HUGE (did I say huge?) jump for all those interested, that's where the idea of FREE WILL comes from: The Uncertainty Principle. A fundamental characteristic of Nature. The ancient Mystics were just speaking with the words they knew. Once again, they were correct.
Anyone for Ecclesiastes?
Tony
John Smith
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The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Tony Alicea
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That means that there was never a beginning or start. Modern Physics has shown that that is a reasonable thing to believe.
And that there will be no end to the material universe as we experience it.
It is preposterous to think that there is someone watching our behaviour ready to punish us if we deviate from ___FILL IN THE BLANK___. That was your parent who did that!
There is no way that anyone could insult the intelligence that god (if it exists) gave us. If he didn't exist then it explains creation just as good.
If It exists, It is probably unconscious of it creation and WE ARE ITS CONSCIOUSNESS. That's it; It's WE.
We better start doing better for all of us here because WE ARE ALONE!!!
Better Now than Never!!
Peace Profound,
Tony
Mapraputa Is
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TT: Anyway, I don't think that one needs to be in sucha situation to ask God for help.. But please forget about this question, and proceed with the next one.. if there are creatures, there must be a creator. :roll:
Is this a question or an answer?


Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Tonny Tssagovic
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

Is this a question or an answer?

Well, I mean the question about that subject!
Tonny Tssagovic
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Posts: 226
Originally posted by Tony Alicea:

And what created the "creator"?

Good question. Well simply put, I am in rush as always, if there was a Creator that created another creator, then the first one is the Real Creator. If you go like this in an endless loop, then the last creator you get is the real Creator, and all the rest are creatures.

IT always existed. IT has no beginning or end.

That is a very logic and is right when we talk about the CREATOR; the universe has been created, as well as �Time�, and it has both a beginning and an end.

For those who want to waste... er... I meant, utilize their time thinking about these things�

Well, I would not call this loosing time my friend, since once you come up to a conclusion that you are sure about, you have peace of mind. Although I personally don�t know any atheist that has no doubts (and know a lot of believers that don�t have any doubts and are �happy�), I think it is a good investment of your time. I don�t know if you are totally sure and have peace of mind leaving as an atheist (and in that case, good for you, everyone is free in his beliefs), but I just want to tell you as a mate, since you did not meet anybody after his death, you can not be sure what is going to happen, so to be in the �safe side� I would suggest you to learn a bit more about religions. It would not do any harm, and would help you understand religious people better. You can take it as general knowledge, and I can assure you it would not delete the java responsible part of your brain.

There is no way that anyone could insult the intelligence that god (if it exists) gave us.

Very good; God gave you a brain to think and make decisions; and It makes sense to me that we did not just come to existence from nothing, and to do nothing. Again, every part of your body is so complex and has a fixed duty; so it does not make sense that the whole body is just useless. Even your shoes have a duty, and you don�t have one; What a shame, your shoes are more useful then you.
If God wanted you to believe in him, you would. God could just �show� himself, then you would have no choice, you can see him and he orders you to believe in Him and obey him. This is the case for angels, they can not disobey even if they wanted to do so, they �have a built in� function to obey god�s orders.
Well God gave you a brain, and gave you the choice; so use your brain before you make a decision.
Since you have the choice, you also have to assume the consequences. A bad choice might result in punishment.
John Smith
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Well God gave you a brain, and gave you the choice; so use your brain before you make a decision. Since you have the choice, you also have to assume the consequences. A bad choice might result in punishment.
Yeah, well, there is an alternative theory. There is an alien spaceship that crashed near galaxy X476, and it needs a spare part. It turned out that an amulet that belongs to some American Indian in Arizona has the shape that fits exacly the needed part. In year 2365, there will be an Indian baby born in Arizona, and he will be destined to become the first native American astrounat to be sent to space. He will wear the amulet on his neck when his spaceship reaches galaxy X476. There will also be a logical error in the system utilities in the onboard computer, -- the program will confuse feet and meters and the spaceship will crash. The aliens will pick up the amulet from the neck of the Indian, and fix their spaceship. In reward, the aliens will tell the Indians about the meaning of life. On their planet, the aliens made a wooden statute and they called it "God". That was to be used as the purpose of life for humans on Earth, so that they concentrate on the job at hand: develop their science and technology to the extend that it would be possible to send a spaceship as far as galaxy X476.
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
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Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Well God gave you a brain, and gave you the choice; so use your brain before you make a decision. Since you have the choice, you also have to assume the consequences. A bad choice might result in punishment.
Hey, I have an excuse! I had difficult childhood! I was raised by godless commies who lied to me that there is no such thing as "God"! And now it's too late.
I am afraid God has no other choice but to forgive me.
Davy Kelly
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Joined: Jan 12, 2004
Posts: 384
I think everyone, not just in here, should think of God as an abstract superclass, he/she is not totally defined, so you must subclass him/her to make them a proper object, a God.
Do you believe in something all powerfull who is in complete control of everything???
Please note, this takes care of most religions, not all
Davy


How simple does it have to be???
Tonny Tssagovic
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Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 226
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
And now it's too late.
I am afraid God has no other choice but to forgive me.

Well, It would be too late when you die Map, and God is the all forgiver... But you need to repent and ask for forgiveness, and not make fun of God's existance..
It seems that you guys had a conclusion before even starting the discussion, which is a breach of one of the game's rules, you don't reply to questions, and make fun of what I say... Your arguments did not make me change my position, nor did mine make you change yours..
Tonny Tssagovic
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Originally posted by Davy Kelly:

Do you believe in something all powerfull who is in complete control of everything???
Davy

Yes dude, for sure.
John Smith
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Posts: 2937
TT: It seems that you guys had a conclusion before even starting the discussion, which is a breach of one of the game's rules, you don't reply to questions, and make fun of what I say... Your arguments did not make me change my position, nor did mine make you change yours..
Please take no offense, -- despite the appearence, we have good intentions, and I think your questions were addressed, but not in the manner that you expected. For example, my previous post about the wooden statue of God was not a joke, but a direct response to your vision of a stationary, omnipotent, and infallable God. The idea comes from the Kurt Vonnegut's novel The Sirens of Titan.
So, we have two competing theories (for now). One states that God created us and is watching us, ready to punish and send us to the pit if we don't like our neighbor (the neighbor doesn't take care of his lawn, and that decreases our property prices). The second theory states that the entire life on earth, and its real and apparent manifestations, such as love, hatred, good, evil, politics, and God, was an illusion created by the alliens, to motivate the humans into making the technological progress so that one day the humans will send a spaceship to a distant planet and the alliens can use one of the human astronaut's amulet as a spare part to repair their stuck allien ship.
The first theory is a cosmic tragedy, the second theory is a cosmic joke. But would you not admit that both theories are equally plausible?
[ January 18, 2004: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]
Mapraputa Is
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Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
We have the same problem with Gods that we have with standards -- there are so many to choose from. How do we know we believe in the right one?
Another problem: we believe in God as a creator of the Universe, yet somehow our Gods are horribly antropomorhic. But humans did not create the Universe, so what are the chances that God would think like we, feel the same emotions, well, care about us in general?
I already posted this, one more time:
Bertrand Russell tells a story that helps me interpret the point Gandhi is making. When Russell was imprisoned in WWI for his pacifist activities, the jailer asked him his religious belief, and Russell replied that he was an agnostic. The jailer replied that he had never heard of that religion but that although people have many different religions, they all worship the same God. Russell did not correct the jailer, for had thought there was a wisdom in what had been said. For we can find a common ideal in both the religious believer and the agnostic. They both tell us that belief in God is and should be primarily belief in one's own conscience, that is, belief in living according to the truth."
William O'Meara. Gandhi’s Commitment to the Ideal of Self-Knowledge.

--------------------
"Meaning isn't the endpoint, it's the integral under the curve." -- Ernest Friedman-Hill
Joe King
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Posts: 820
Originally posted by Tonny Tssagovic:

Well, It would be too late when you die Map, and God is the all forgiver... But you need to repent and ask for forgiveness, and not make fun of God's existance..

Hell no. If I was to die and then wake up and realise that I still existed, then I'd willing to say "Ok, I was wrong", but I wouldn't appologise. I've thought a lot about it and come to a conclusion that I think is right - why would I apologise for that?
Originally posted by Tonny Tssagovic:

you can not be sure what is going to happen, so to be in the �safe side� I would suggest you to learn a bit more about religions.

Are you suggesting we try to con a being that is supposedly knows everything about us?
Religion has proved very useful in the past, and has acted as something to hold societies together... but we have out-grown it now. We know realise that its nonesense. If people started doing things for themselves, instead of asking a magical thingy to provide things for them, maybe the human race would be in a better state. I think its too easy for some people, when things are going wrong, to ask for help from above instead of doing something about it for themselves.
Jeroen Wenting
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Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:
OK! Before we proceed any further could someone please explain the following to me:
1. The difference between Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans


The differences are small, based often more on interpretation of single paragraphs than anything else.
In fact, the main difference between some minor groups is the placement of a few commas in the bible and the correct pronunciation of the name of Christ.
Yet those small differences are reason enough for extremely bloody wars (now mainly wars of words, but in the past entire cities would be slaughtered in the greater name of God over them).

In an insane world would not the sane appear as madmen?

Of course, on the grounds that the majority is always right.
Logically speaking in that world the definition of sanity would be different and those we consider sane would be insane in their definition (and vice versa). Nothing wrong with that, it happens all the time in this world as well (which may well be insane, I've often thought it might be).

- First, cancel out all religions that call for war (if any) or that have stupid mistakes in their bible (or equivalent).. God does not make mistakes.

If the bible (or equivalent) is the Word of God and God makes no mistakes than by definition there are no mistakes in the bible but only in the understanding of those who read it.
Seeing that people who don't understand the scriptures are infidels and the bible calls for those to be sent to their maker the hard way (beheading, burning at the stake, and slow torture are often preferred ways) and those people don't want that war is inevitable to spread the one true faith (of which there are dozens if not hundreds).

* A dodgy beard. OK, I'm not saying that this is the sole preserver of religions (this could make Richard Branson part of a religion), but religious people do tend to often get a bit hairy.

God is a beard in the sky... Probably originates in a society where most men had beards. The first god-figure for a small child is his father (girls don't matter in ancient societies) and the first thing a small child would see of his father when looking up was the beard hanging in the sky with sound coming out of it giving instructions...

* Some farmers (most years after christ was alive) wrote some stuff about him. Why do some people believe every word in the bible as exact truth? If I wrote a new testament now, no-one would believe me, but they believe some guy centuries ago?

You would find believers, try California
The Branch Davidians believed that their leader was a messiah, there's Baghwan and all the other sect leaders. Each has his (typically) writings which are considered holy writ by his followers, no reason a decently charismatic person can't do better.
After all, people believed Hitler, Stalin and Mao too who were in my opinion no more than religious leaders (thus their rules religious fundamentalist rule).

Kids nowadays cotton on that Santa must be having his post delivered by ParcelForce.

There's a small but vocal minority in our parliament who want to make it a postal law that all letters addressed to God, Heaven are preserved by the postal services for free delivery to the Nativity Church in Jerusalem rather than returned to sender as undeliverable or destroyed.
So adults believe in the same thing more or less, even supposedly educated adults in positions of power.

- If you don�t believe in that there is live after death, could you explain me what Is the purpose of life? I mean your body is composed of many complex parts, what�s the purpose of the whole, nothing?
From global POV? Nothing. What is the purpose of cockroach's life?

The purpose of life is the continuation of life. Therefore the sole purpose of life is sex

4. Muslims believe that everyone will be judged for his or her own actions. Mercy is directly from asking God for forgiveness and repenting. There is no original Sin and Muslims don't believe in the Crucifixtion of Jesus. Muslims believe that Jesus was never crucified and everyone is responsible for his or her own deeds.

Rather they don't care whether Jesus was crucified and place no particular importance on the event if it did happen.
Only fundamentalists deny that anything not specifically mentioned in the Q'uran did not happen...

And what created the "creator"?

Sun Microsystems
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

Sun Microsystems

Thanks Jeroen.
It cleared my all doubts about life, death and God.


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Davy Kelly
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Posts: 384
was it not one of the scandinavian countries mobile phone networks that went into liquidation because they were sending out text messages to people who prayed giving them answers!?! only last week.
This proves that if there was a god, they would have saved this poor network company from liquidation for doing him a service and lightening his burden!!!
Davy
Joe Richard
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Joined: Aug 15, 2001
Posts: 76
Do people really change?
I just practice my faith at another location, she thinks I changed though.
Ahhhhhh.... Marriage is a beautiful thing.


Persistence equals goals
SCJD (In Progress), SCJP
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Davy Kelly:
was it not one of the scandinavian countries mobile phone networks that went into liquidation because they were sending out text messages to people who prayed giving them answers!?! only last week.
This proves that if there was a god, they would have saved this poor network company from liquidation for doing him a service and lightening his burden!!!
Davy

No. A company in Scandinavia was sending out SMS messages they said were responses from god to prayers sent as SMS messages (�1.70 or so per prayer).
When the network found out they terminated the service immediately.
Davy Kelly
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ah thanks for correcting me
Davy
Tonny Tssagovic
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1.7 �, OMG, this is good business and original idea, why didn't I think about it..
 
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subject: Change Of Faith