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An Italian(born) as Indian PM - - - > how about that

Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Rediff says Sonia does not want to be PM

http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/may/18sb.htm

not sure whether it is true. :roll:


Groovy
Manish Hatwalne
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Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2578

Originally posted by Ashok Mash:
Your post is still quite incomprehensible, however, I think I vaguely have an idea of your point � please correct me if I understood it wrong.

[qb]These uppercast's brutaly and cruely suppressed indians.

Well, now that�s Indians brutally and cruelly suppressing Indians. I don�t see an external involved there. The upper cast / lower cast problems that�s been on for centuries are something that us Indians devised, and us Indians have the collective responsibility for running it and for putting up with it. And thankfully, cast-system is a history in certain parts of India, and less so significant in most of the parts. There are certain black spots in the country, where poverty and illiteracy keeps them away from the developments around the country. We will get there, sooner or later.

sangh parivar riots now is mughal suppression and christian suppression.

No one here would vouch for Sangh Parivar, or their actions. And technically, Sangh Parivar is a �all upper cast� set up. And, most importantly, I don�t see how that is connected to this thread, as we are discussing technicality (and sentiments) of an individual (not a invading force, cast, religious group � just an single woman) with foreign origin holding the top office in India.

Who were actually invaders of our country.

Something tells me you are talking about the arya invasions to a dravida land. Not only that its far from what this tread is about, its so ancient, its absolutely insignificant to any discussion, except for the cheap politicians of south who uses �language sentiments� among cast/group card to win votes.[/QB]


Ashok,

Just wanted to compliment you for taking time to read incomprehensible posts and moreover still posting perfectly sensible and rational answers in a most civilized manner.

- Manish
Sameer Jamal
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Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Couple of thoughts:

Rudyard Kipling was born in India. Do you think that would have made him more qualified to be PM of India?


What about Mother Teresa?
Murasoli Maran
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Joined: Jun 08, 2003
Posts: 193
Originally posted by Ashok Mash:


Something tells me you are talking about the arya invasions to a dravida land. Not only that its far from what this tread is about, its so ancient, its absolutely insignificant to any discussion,


This thread started twisting on this issue when Poul McKenna said about invasion.If Poul McKenna saying about invasion,i am also having something to say about invasion that's how this thread twisted.And the people saying about invasion is also making probloms(riots) in this country also on the very issue of invasion.so this thread twisted to this area.and i have asked some basic questiens to them,and those are not answering it.

This is where the thread twisted,

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:


With the history in perspective, it is only appropriate that Indians be extremely cautious about any foreigner/naturalized citizen vying for the top spot. You have to keep in mind that India has been free for only the last 50 odd years, prior to which it has been under foreign rule for 800 years.


I just wanna point out that maker of this post is that brahmins are the real invaders of our country and their brutality towards indians.
Sameer Jamal
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Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
Originally posted by Murasoli Maran:


Where is the provocation?.There is no provocation on my doubt.If there is any provocation,it can be pointed.

I am asking the reason of the riots happened in india.A very lot of people suffering in india by this.A lot of people supressed for centuries.i am asking the reason of that.i am asking the logic.and i am also asking the logic of complaint about about suppression by the people who done the most brutal suppression in the world.




Dear Murasoli

It has not happened only in India but in the whole world that the powerful and rich always supressed the poor ones its a human nature. Now the world is becoming more and more homogenous so the supression is also diminishing.
Murasoli Maran
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Joined: Jun 08, 2003
Posts: 193
Originally posted by Ashok Mash:
Your post is still quite incomprehensible, however, I think I vaguely have an idea of your point � please correct me if I understood it wrong.



The following posts are actually incomprehensible.And i was just asking the reason.I even asked to Paul McKenna individually.and even they cant answer it.Becoz they dont have any answrer and it's understandable.

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:


Actually, it would make little or no difference. GWB, Tony Blair and Sonia are all foreigners and not Indians. So the point of conflict would remain the same. Actually, it might be a little better with the other two because you know what each of them stand for. No one has any idea what Sonia plans to do or what she is capable of.



Originally posted by Paul McKenna:


With the history in perspective, it is only appropriate that Indians be extremely cautious about any foreigner/naturalized citizen vying for the top spot. You have to keep in mind that India has been free for only the last 50 odd years, prior to which it has been under foreign rule for 800 years.


I have just told them about their indian origin.
Sameer Jamal
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Joined: Feb 16, 2001
Posts: 1870
Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:


Ashok,

Just wanted to compliment you for taking time to read incomprehensible posts and moreover still posting perfectly sensible and rational answers in a most civilized manner.

- Manish


I second that
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Murasoli Maran:

  • I am asking the reason of the riots happened in india.
  • A lot of people supressed for centuries.i am asking the reason of that
  • i am asking the logic
  • i am also asking the logic of complaint about about suppression by the people who done the most brutal suppression in the world.



  • It has nothing to do with Italian being PM of India.

    I will suggest you to start a new thread.

    I think this is the most straight forward answer anyone can give right now.


    "Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
    Murasoli Maran
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    Joined: Jun 08, 2003
    Posts: 193
    Originally posted by R K Singh:


    It has nothing to do with Italian being PM of India.

    I will suggest you to start a new thread.

    I think this is the most straight forward answer anyone can give right now.



    This is where the thread twisted.It's not me who twisted the thread.Paul McKenna said about invasion.and i had something to tell him about invasion.And it naturally gone to some ideologies they are representing.I just dont like the arrogance of this people who even dont have much idea about their origin.

    Paul McKenna said,
    With the history in perspective, it is only appropriate that Indians be extremely cautious about any foreigner/naturalized citizen vying for the top spot. You have to keep in mind that India has been free for only the last 50 odd years, prior to which it has been under foreign rule for 800 years.
    Manish Hatwalne
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    Joined: Sep 22, 2001
    Posts: 2578

    Originally posted by Murasoli Maran:


    I just wanna point out that maker of this post is that brahmins are the real invaders of our country and their brutality towards indians.


    This statement can also be interpreted as spreading hatred against one community, and that's provoking. (Ashok has done a very good job explaining this, so I am not even going to try). Any online community would prohibit that.

    Besides reason for non-replying could be anything. From "busy-with-work to it's-best-to-ignore-troll", but by repeatedly asking the same question again and again (or by making same *statement* again and again, because you seem to have your conclusion ready) one could come across as a stubborn person with biased views; which might not be your intentions.

    Truth is almost always multidimensional, how sensible would it be to say my perception is the truth is in its entirety?

    - Manish
    Manish Hatwalne
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    Joined: Sep 22, 2001
    Posts: 2578

    Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
    Rediff says Sonia does not want to be PM

    http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/may/18sb.htm

    not sure whether it is true. :roll:


    That's a news!!! Though I doubt if it's true (Rediff does it sometimes...)
    It would be interesting to follow events now. If not Sonia who should it be?

    - Manish
    Murasoli Maran
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    Joined: Jun 08, 2003
    Posts: 193
    Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:


    This statement can also be interpreted as spreading hatred against one community, and that's provoking. (Ashok has done a very good job explaining this, so I am not even going to try). Any online community would prohibit that.



    Sonia gandhi is living in india more than 35 years.And she is an indian citizen.She is an indian.

    Sangh parivar folks says that the place of birth is also taken in account.and what i am saying to them is if place of birth is an issue,The origin of ancestors is also an issue.
    Arjun Shastry
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    Joined: Mar 13, 2003
    Posts: 1874
    Sonia Gandhi seems to be reluctant on accepting the offer as PM.If its true,then Manmohan Singh is the better option than anybody.[I would prefer Singh over any political leader in any party including Gandhi.]
    Choice of Pranab Mukherjee is also not ruled out.But he has not that knowledge 'glamor' that Singh possesses.
    [ May 18, 2004: Message edited by: Ram Abdullah D'Souza ]

    MH
    Manish Hatwalne
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    Joined: Sep 22, 2001
    Posts: 2578

    Originally posted by Ram Abdullah D'Souza:
    Sonia Gandhi seems to be reluctant on accepting the offer as PM.If its true,then Manmohan Singh is the better option than anybody.[I would prefer Singh over any political leader in any party including Gandhi.]


    I second that. But Manmohan Singh seems to be a rather soft-spoken, submissive type of a person (though very inteliigent and civilized person). Very good as a team member, but as a leader I am not very sure....

    Of course, things could be different if he really becomes the PM. My observations are primarily based on his interviews on TV when he was finance minister earlier.

    - Manish
    Pradeep bhatt
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    Joined: Feb 27, 2002
    Posts: 8919

    The news is true (it is published in indiatimes, ndtv etc) unless Sonia changes her mind.
    Murasoli Maran
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    Joined: Jun 08, 2003
    Posts: 193
    If it's true,it's sad.i like Sonia as PM.
    Manish Hatwalne
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    Joined: Sep 22, 2001
    Posts: 2578

    Yep! You are right...

    Everybody's flashing the news now. So who it's going to be?

    Maybe Sonia is just making sure that Congress members plead her to become PM, so that she can say - " I became PM becauser you wanted me to!" Remember Sharad Pawar/NCP etc along with their supporters were against her for quite some time.

    Sensex is falling again..
    Ashok Mash
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    Joined: Oct 13, 2000
    Posts: 1936
    Thanks for the support, Manish, Sameer and Map.

    Manmohan Singh would be my choice, if it�s not Sonia. I would want Sonia to hold the office for a while at least because, now since the world is curious if Indians can accept someone with foreign origins as their Premier, I wouldn�t want to be from �that country which was narrow minded and could not accept a person of non-indian origin as their PM� � especially because the US will most probably have one soon.

    Well, you know whom I would like to see in PM�s office? TN Seshan (okay, ignoring the fact that he aligned himself with Jaya Lalitha for a short while).
    [ May 18, 2004: Message edited by: Ashok Mash ]

    [ flickr ]
    Pradeep bhatt
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    Posts: 8919

    Sensex is falling again..

    Good news for Mr. Maran
    Murasoli Maran
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    Joined: Jun 08, 2003
    Posts: 193
    Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:

    Good news for Mr. Maran


    It's a usual response.A sensex which corely rely only on forign investment will fail.And it's not a good news for me.
    [ May 18, 2004: Message edited by: Murasoli Maran ]
    Arjun Shastry
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    Joined: Mar 13, 2003
    Posts: 1874
    Manish Hatwalne
    {
    Very good as a team member, but as a leader I am not very sure....
    }
    thats true.But anything is possible in politics.After LB Shastry's death in 1966,there was a lot of competition between various Congress groups for PM and other posts.K Kamraj,SK Patil were some of the stalwarts.Undecided whom to chose,compromise was done by choosing 'dumb doll',Indira Gandhi and the rest is history.Kamraj,Patil were all sidelined and were made almost non existant by early 70s.
    R K Singh
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    Joined: Oct 15, 2001
    Posts: 5371
    Originally posted by Murasoli Maran:
    This is where the thread twisted.


    I am not able to see anything wrong in the statement of Paul.

    He said what is truth and we should be concious about that.

    If you know the case Peru who had Japanese President, then I dont think you will oppose Paul and even you might oppose Sonia.

    But in India case is different, Sonia cant do what Fuji.... did in Peru.

    AW talking about 5000 yr old invasion (though its just a theory, which is produced by British historian, many Indian historian challenge this theory.) is like saying that I will roam naked as 6000 yrs back people were roaming like that.
    Pradeep bhatt
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    Joined: Feb 27, 2002
    Posts: 8919

    Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:

    Good news for Mr. Maran


    Sensex gained 100 points on the news that MANMOHAN may bceome PM.
    Murasoli Maran
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    Joined: Jun 08, 2003
    Posts: 193
    Originally posted by R K Singh:


    I am not able to see anything wrong in the statement of Paul.

    He said what is truth and we should be concious about that.


    And because of lack of conciouseness of indians,the uppercaste invaders with brahmin ideology treated indians like animals.
    Pradeep bhatt
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    Joined: Feb 27, 2002
    Posts: 8919

    MM is sonia choice for PM.
    Paul McKenna
    Ugly Redneck
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    Originally posted by Murasoli Maran:
    And because of lack of conciouseness of indians,the uppercaste invaders with brahmin ideology treated indians like animals.


    Ok! I think its about enough that I ignored the senseless trolling. First of all, let me make it clear that I stick by my original statement. When I say "original statement" I am refering to that statement where I stated Indians should be cautious when a foreigner vys for the top spot. I cited the recent 800 years because, in the last 800 years all Indians, regardless of whether upper caste or lower caste have been the subjects of foreign rule. For anyone to bring up a 5000 year old aryan invasion theory and to cite that as evidence against my post is absolutely baseless. Simply because in 5000 years the majority of India is Brahmins / upper caste. Sorry, there is not much we can do about it now unless the lower caste people want to wage a bloody civil war to see who is left standing. If you are going to continue trolling along these lines, it will be only appropriate that I ignore every post from you in the future.


    Commentary From the Sidelines of history
    Thomas Paul
    mister krabs
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    I think Paul was talking about the European occupation of India over the last 800 years although I believe that India was only controlled by Europeans starting in the late 1700's.

    As far as the Brahmins invading India, I don't recall any recent articles in the NY Times about this. Wouldn't India have used their nuclear weapons to stop an invasion? Or are we talking about ancient history? :roll:

    I'll ask my earlier question again. For those who oppose Sonia because she wasn't born in India, would you prefer someone like Rudyard Kipling since he was born in India? (And before you bring up the situation in the US, the requirement to be born in the USA to be president is in our Constitution which makes it very difficult to change. But I would be happy to toss it out as I believe that it serves no useful purpose.)
    Pradeep bhatt
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    you are going to continue trolling along these lines, it will be only appropriate that I ignore every post from you in the future.


    Pradeep bhatt
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    the requirement to be born in the USA to be president is in our Constitution which makes it very difficult to change.

    Why is it difficult? :roll:
    Murasoli Maran
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    Posts: 193
    Originally posted by Paul McKenna:


    Ok! I think its about enough that I ignored the senseless trolling..


    If my questiens are senseless,Why cant you answer that?.Nobody is answering my questien and telling it's senseless.It's called senselessness.I am saying that you himself is an invader of our country.and in which basis you are complaining about Sonia gandhi's foreign origin?.

    I am posting my questien again and again because i am not getting the answer.sayinbg something other like trolling is not the answer.I'll post it untill i get an answer for my questien.So i am posting it again.please clarify me.Plese concentrate only in questien.there is no need of saying something other like trolling.give a straightforward answer.

    I am not understanding the logic of invaders blaming foreigners.!!.

    I am not understanding the logic who says about suppression of thousands of years back,by even now suppressing a mass community.I am not understanding the logic of who do suppression openly complaing about illusionary suppression happened in thousands of years back.

    good answer expected.
    Pradeep bhatt
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    Maran

    Please create a separate thread and ask the question.
    Murasoli Maran
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    Originally posted by Paul McKenna:


    I cited the recent 800 years because, in the last 800 years all Indians, regardless of whether upper caste or lower caste have been the subjects of foreign rule. For anyone to bring up a 5000 year old aryan invasion theory and to cite that as evidence against my post is absolutely baseless. Simply because in 5000 years the majority of India is Brahmins / upper caste.


    If 5000 year old invaders blame 800 year old invaders?.Why cant millions of year old indians teach culture to 5000 year olds?.
    Murasoli Maran
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    And regarding to this 5000 years,this 5000 years is a hell of indians.These greedy forces with a deceptive ideology treated indians just like animals in this 5000 years.They folks spited in indians faces.these folks made them as the 'untouchables'.I am not telling the range of brutality of these folks did to indians.I'll tell if it's needed.

    And the interesting point is these 5000 year olds says about suppression .

    I am asking to Mr Paul McKenna what is the logic you are saying about suppression from 800 year olds while you people suppressing us for 5000 years?.

    Questien is straightforward.I am repeating this a lot of time.Why cant you answer it?.
    Paul McKenna
    Ugly Redneck
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    Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
    I think Paul was talking about the European occupation of India over the last 800 years although I believe that India was only controlled by Europeans starting in the late 1700's.


    True, but foreign Muslims controlled India for a period of 500 years before the British came in.


    I'll ask my earlier question again. For those who oppose Sonia because she wasn't born in India, would you prefer someone like Rudyard Kipling since he was born in India? (And before you bring up the situation in the US, the requirement to be born in the USA to be president is in our Constitution which makes it very difficult to change. But I would be happy to toss it out as I believe that it serves no useful purpose.)[/QB]


    Actually, you raised a good point. I wouldnt want Kipling as my PM even though he was born in India. I guess the point I am trying to make is that for me to accept someone as a leader of a nation, he or she must culturally assimilate. On this basis Sonia does not qualify:

    1. She is a Catholic (this is nothing against her religion, but simply to emphasize the fact that she may not be in sync with 88% of India which is Hindu)
    2. She grew up in Italy and immigrated to India only in 1968. This presents the condition where she maynot have culturally assimilated completely. We cannot verify this but the risk is there.

    Now, I will provide you one foreigner who has culturally assimilated with India and may be an appropriate leader if he enters politics: Mark Tully of BBC Radio. He is a man who gave up his luxurious life in London to live in India. He has studied Hinduism for several years and knows the nuances of the religion. Rajiv Gandhi, refused to believe his mother, Indira Gandhi, was assasinated until he heard it from the mouth of Mark Tully. Mark would be my choice.. I know, he is a Brit.. but I guess I would club Brits and Americans as my favourite foreigners.
    Paul McKenna
    Ugly Redneck
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    Originally posted by Murasoli Maran:
    Why cant you answer it?.


    Answer: I will henceforth ignore your posts.
    Murasoli Maran
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    Posts: 193
    Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
    Maran

    Please create a separate thread and ask the question.


    This thread itself is the thread for it.I can start another thread.but i'll not do it.becoz Poul McKenna introduced invasion here in this thread.so we must discuss about invasion and the logic of telling about foreign origin,and Paul McKenna showed his opinion about the acts of 800 old invaders.So i also wanna talk about the acts of 5000 year old invaders.And i wanna find the logic of suppression also.And the logic of riots also.and i need the logics of caste based ideology also...

    Try to bring answer instead of trying to divert the focus.It's too shamefull .
    Murasoli Maran
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    Originally posted by Paul McKenna:


    Answer: I will henceforth ignore your posts.


    That's senseless.You should answer if you have any sense.
    Pradeep bhatt
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    Joined: Feb 27, 2002
    Posts: 8919

    It's too shamefull .

    Murasoli Maran
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    Joined: Jun 08, 2003
    Posts: 193
    Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:



    .

    Discussion reveal the truth.Discussions defenitely reveal the truth.Defenitely.
    Pradeep bhatt
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    Joined: Feb 27, 2002
    Posts: 8919

    Originally posted by Murasoli Maran:


    .

    Discussion reveal the truth.Discussions defenitely reveal the truth.Defenitely.


     
    I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
     
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