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Read this?

Amit Agrawal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 23, 2001
Posts: 282
May be you can read the news here
US Move to ban H1-B Visa
hope this wud make things better at US.
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Amit Agrawal:
hope this wud make things better at US.

Wishes are with them


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Tim Cerillo
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 10, 2002
Posts: 44
Originally posted by Jason Menard:


Immigrants are a different case. Immigrants are coming to this country with the plan to become US citizens. I'm all for controlled immigration personally. This country was founded by immigrants and is kept strong through controlled immigration. The H1-B visa is not an immigration visa. [ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

H1B is non-immigrant visa but it carries a 'dual-intent' clause. According to the BCIS website the H1b visa holder may choose to return to the home country upon the end of the term or may choose to move into permanent residency (or immigrant) status in the US. That i think is loophole in the visa rule.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
That concludes this thread with following conclusions:
1)Few years back there was some 'shortage' of IT workers.
2)Workers from different countries were imported or Student visas were converted to H1-B for that that purpose.
3)Foreign workers either accepted the same wage or lower wage to stay in US economy legally.
4)With downturn of ecomony,many US workers were loosing the jobs and hence no extra workers were needed in US.
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
You may have missed the purpose of the H1-B visa, but it is a non-immigrant visa, issued to temporary workers. H1-B visa holders are not ostensibly immigrants, rather they are issued visas to come to this country for a limited time to fill jobs which supposedly can't be filled by American workers. Can we reach an agreement on this? Actually I don't see how we can't reach an agreement on this as it is a fact.

Jason, Tom, there seems to be more heat than light in this discussion. Why don't we all cool down and talk about how the H1B and green card programs work in real life, and also about how we can accomodate change.
The way things actualy work is that smart Indian college grads come to the US on a student visa. When they graduate they get a job and an H1B visa, while their employer applies for a US green card on their behalf. Depending upon INS backlogs this takes anywhere between 15. and 4 years to complete, and then the immigrant is a permanent resident ultimately elibible for US citizenship.
I figure we have a choice between letting the smart kids immigrate in this way or letting them work for outsource companies.
If they work on an H1B/green card they make something resembling US wages, and I can compete on costs and the merits. If they end up with WiPro they will be paid $5000 a year and I can only compete on the merits. And my merits will have to be pretty damn good in that case.
To quote Lyndon Johnson: "I'd rather have him on the inside of the tent, pissing out, than on the outside pissing in"......
So I value the H1B program partly as a safety valve and partly because the immigrants it admits are capable of pulling their own weight from day one.


SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

The way things actualy work is that smart Indian college grads come to the US on a student visa.

Not really true for all student visa holders.Universities apply different criteria for admission.Sorry for off the topic.


MH
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
Things really work more like this. You go into contractors office and pimps says "How much do you need to make?" Ameican says I need 65K. H1-B says I will work 70 hour weeks for 35K. American labor has made great strides against oppressive capitalists in the last 150 years. H1-B wants to bring their failed culture to USA.
Infusion of 1,000,000 new sources in labor supply cannot but reduce the wages management has to pay. It's just simple supply and demand. This concept of H1-B or non h1-b making a fair wage is bunk. People are going to make less in the US of A.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Originally posted by R K Singh:
No, I dont expect any apology or anything.
For me it will be enough if people realize only what they are saying/doing and be open to change.

Ravish, I'm done with this thread, but I will address you, since you seem to take so much effort to address me. I'm glad you don't expect an apology, because you won't get one.
You carped over and over about the term "Indian visa abusers", which means "those who abuse visas and are from India". Simple grammar rules indicate that, by definition, I did not mean all Indians, or even all Indian visa companies, but simply those who abused visas.
But, because of your poor understanding of the language, you chose to take this as an insult, and pound on it over and over in your post. Saying that *I* need to realize what I am saying misses the point: it is your incomplete grasp of English grammar that makes you read things incorrectly. It's not my job to fix that, especially when you turn around and attack me because of what you read wrong.
But, as I said, I'm sick of this, and these attacks, and the general attitude here. My entire point on this whole thing (and my last word on the topic) is that the H- and L- visas are being abused and must end and that American citizens are sick of the abuses.
I thought I would point out civilly that, since the condition which caused the introduction of these bills in the first place no longer exists (if it ever did in the first place) and that they are now putting Americans out of work, that they should now be ended. I thought that people would understand. Instead, unbelievably to me, many of the readers of this forum do not. Many believe they everyone is entitled to come to America without immigrating and compete with Americans for American jobs, and that visas should be used for people who can't immigrate. This is a novel and to me unjustifiable concept.
No matter. That simply strengthens my resolve to use the legal recourses available to me to address this situation. And also to get the heck out of this conversation, because it is really sapping my character. I really feel sad when I read this thread, because it's obvious to me that there are huge gulfs of understanding that may never be bridged. And I can't understand how so many hate America, and yet at the same time how so many are hell-bent on getting here at any means, at any cost to others, including Americans.
Yes. I am tired, and sad.
Joe
[ September 05, 2003: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]
Amit Agrawal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 23, 2001
Posts: 282
I didn’t have any idea that this topic would attract such a heated and person oriented discussion. It seems many of us are out here to prove a point or downplay others by highlighting weak points in the other's post rather than discussing the original issue.
Yes it is a meaningless drivel but it should not be misused like this. Being the initiator of the Post, I request forum moderator to close the thread in the way that no more postings are possible.
I would go back watching Word Association, which I love the most at java ranch.
[ September 05, 2003: Message edited by: Amit Agrawal ]
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Tell you what, Amit. Personally I'm annoyed at the tendency -- naive, inadvertent or intentional -- to use Meaningless Drivel as a catch-all forum for topics like this. There are some perfectly lovely Forums on JavaRanch for exactly this purpose, such as Jobs Discussion. I would imagine such a topic would be much more closely monitored for reasonable content, not to mention the reduction in blatherskiting.
I won't close the topic, but I will move it.


Make visible what, without you, might perhaps never have been seen.
- Robert Bresson
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Ravish,

I wish, if you ever come to this forum and read this.
No.. frankly I dont believe in religion/caste/nationality/society/race etc..
I am telling you, I dont feel any offense till it is very derogatory. And I did not feel anything about your opnoin about visa holders[let it be Indian] because neither I am holding one nor I joined this industry to go to US[like several other Indians, this is true.]
Even I did not have my passport till last year.
Do I hate america. No, I love my country and as much proud of it as you are on yours. And I know US is great and if I go there I wont come back .
Now let us come to the point. I think I am repeating it. I have to quote your "Indian Visa" part as no one else was able to see why Sunitha is so angry [after all she is my Ex and I like her.]
, because of your poor understanding of the language,

Thanks for your comment, but I would like to know which part of speech tells that the term "Indian visa abusers", which means "those who abuse visas and are from India"... but did not mean all Indians.
I can assume it by my intelligence but not bcoz of poor understanding of the language. In english it will means "Indian Visa holders are abuser". Period.
Get me a buyer for your thought.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Thanks for your comment, but I would like to know which part of speech tells that the term "Indian visa abusers", which means "those who abuse visas and are from India"... but did not mean all Indians.
The noun is the word abuser. "Indian" and "visa" are adjectives here. In other words, what kind of "abusers" are we talking about? Visa abusers. What kind of visa abusers? Indian. The phrase refers to people who abuse visas who are Indian. As Joe stated, the phrase in no way indicates that all Indians are visa abusers, nor does it state that all Indians with visas abuse them. IIRC the context he was using it in specifically referred to Indian companies as well. Joe seems correct in his assessment of the source of the misunderstanding.
I can assume it by my intelligence but not bcoz of poor understanding of the language. In english it will means "Indian Visa holders are abuser". Period.
I find it unlikely that you will find a native English speaker reading the phrase in context who will agree.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
[QBI find it unlikely that you will find a native English speaker reading the phrase in context who will agree.[/QB]

Be Happy....
I wish you believe in what you are saying. :-
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Originally posted by R K Singh:
I can assume it by my intelligence but not bcoz of poor understanding of the language. In english it [Indian visa abusers] will means "Indian Visa holders are abuser". Period.

You are wrong. Ask any English teacher (that is, a person whose professional job it is to teach English in an accredited institution of higher learning). Then I expect a formal, public apology. Until then, expect no responses from me.
Joe
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Peace
I cant get a person whose professional job it is to teach English in an accredited institution of higher learning
So I accept, I was wrong and my appologies to all.
Now in future I will keep in mind that in common langauge it means "all" but in higher learning of english it means who does it, but not all.
Peace
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by R K Singh:
Now in future I will keep in mind that in common langauge it means "all" but in higher learning of english it means who does it, but not all.

No, Joe was using "common" English. Do you think you are being lied to when you are told that you are mistaken here? Do you think the educated native English speaking people are the ones mistaken?
[ September 05, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
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Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15299
    
    6

American Java Lovers = Americans who love JAVA. NOT All Americans love Java (wouldn't that be scary if all Americans Love Java? ).
This is common English. Thought maybe using a different example might help clarify the sentence.


GenRocket - Experts at Building Test Data
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
American Java Lovers = Americans who love JAVA. NOT All Americans love Java (wouldn't that be scary if all Americans Love Java? ).
This is common English. Thought maybe using a different example might help clarify the sentence.

right...
Indian visa abusers = Indians who hold visa abuse NOT All Indians who hold visa abuse [confused]
AW if you feel happy, sorry for misunderstanding :-|
May I say, "american tourist litters"
Obviously it will mean that american tourist who litter NOT all american tourist litter.
[ September 06, 2003: Message edited by: R K Singh ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by R K Singh:
May I say, "american tourist litters"
Actually proper English would be "American tourist litterers".
"Indian professional plumbers" - are all Indians plumbers?
"Japanese car racers" - are all Japanese racing car drivers?
"Smelly old socks" - are all socks smelly?


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Ashok Mash
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Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
I know this is getting too silly, but when someone says bad things about a group in general, it basically sounds really bad.
Usages like, 'American citizens', 'European Scientists', 'Indian Programmers' is considered civil is because they mean positive things (or they don't imply bad things). But such groupings to convey something negative are a definite no-no, in English or in any other language.
I think Ravish may not have taken it this seriously if the actual usage was 'Visa abusers' than 'Indian Visa Abusers'.
The other night, at the local pub, someone was really pissed off with a loud group of American tourists and he called them 'W*nkers'. Now that wouldn't hurt any other American who was not at that scene, but if he was to call that group 'American w*nkers', I don't think other American friends wouldn't feel too nice about it!. I hope you are getting my point!


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Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Originally posted by Ashok Krishnan:
I think Ravish may not have taken it this seriously if the actual usage was 'Visa abusers' than 'Indian Visa Abusers'.

Ashok, I shouldn't have to tailor my English in order to cater to someone else's poor understanding of grammar. That's called "dumbing down", and is frowned upon in pretty much anything. Especially when the person insists, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that he is right in his usage of a foreign language.
That would be like me correcting Axel's German. It would be arrogant at best, if not offensive and condescending. And that's exactly how I feel about Ravish's attitude.
Joe
Jonathan Hendry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 16, 2003
Posts: 32
Just to confuse things, I read "Indian Visa abusers" as "abusers of Indian Visas", meaning companies or outsourcing firms abusing the US visa laws to bring in Indian developers.
(Linguistically, that still isn't quite right, because "Indian Visa" sounds like a visa to work in India, which isn't the issue.)
Frankly, I doubt most Indian programmers are in any position to abuse the visa system by themselves. Realistically, they're at the mercy of the company that brings them into the US. If the individual programmer were violating the terms of their visa, on their own, then that gets into the problem of undocumented workers, which is another problem entirely and goes well beyond the H1B/L1 visa issue. I'm not aware of a big problem of Indian immigrants ducking the terms of their visa and going in to some kind of underground labor market of illegal alien software developers.
There may be people from India in management at these companies that abuse the visa system, but caucasian Americans are quite capable of doing it themselves.
sunitha reghu
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Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

Ashok, I shouldn't have to tailor my English in order to cater to someone else's poor understanding of grammar. That's called "dumbing down", and is frowned upon in pretty much anything. Especially when the person insists, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that he is right in his usage of a foreign language.
That would be like me correcting Axel's German. It would be arrogant at best, if not offensive and condescending. And that's exactly how I feel about Ravish's attitude.
Joe

As Ashok has mentioned very clearly in his post a common person what they understood by your post is what Ravish understood.
A tree is known by the fruits its produce same applies to an author also.
[ September 07, 2003: Message edited by: sunitha raghu ]
[ September 07, 2003: Message edited by: sunitha raghu ]
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

Ashok, I shouldn't have to tailor my English in order to cater to someone else's poor understanding of grammar. ..
That would be like me correcting Axel's German.

I totally agree you on that one, Joe. I wouldn't even dream about trying to correct you or any other native English speakers, English! But I hope you also noticed the other point I was trying to explain in that post - that about how such goupings hurt.
Anyway, this is far off from the actual discussion, so I guess lets call it a day on this, on good terms!
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
As Ashok has mentioned very clearly in his post a common person what they understood by your post is what Ravish understood.
Interestingly, the only people who were really confused by the statement were those for whom English was not their native tongue. That would be like me not quite understanding something in Russian. If I misunderstand Russian grammar and a Russian corrects me, I respect their answer.
Interestingly, the attitude here is completely different: the non-native speakers feel that I need to change my wording to support their lack of understanding.
This is beyond arrogant or disrespectful. It's just plain silly. You don't speak my language natively, but you want me to change how I speak to match your understanding.
Here's my native American response: fuhgeddaboudit.
Joe
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Here's my native American response: fuhgeddaboudit.

So now you're taking shots at Native Americans?! You sir, are a scoundrel.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
So now you're taking shots at Native Americans?! You sir, are a scoundrel.
(LOL!!!)
After I posted that last phrase, I KNEW someone was going to rip me for it. However, in the interests of finding out who would do so quickest, I left the phrase intact. And Jason, you did not disappoint!
Joe
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Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Joe: That would be like me not quite understanding something in Russian. If I misunderstand Russian grammar and a Russian corrects me, I respect their answer.
Speaking about Russian grammar, it's hard for me to imagine that this kind of construction in any language could have any but restrictive sense.
Barkood curky masducas -- curky masducas that are barkood. (no, it's not in any language)


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R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Actually proper English would be "American tourist litterers".
"Indian professional plumbers" - are all Indians plumbers?
"Japanese car racers" - are all Japanese racing car drivers?
"Smelly old socks" - are all socks smelly?

No TP pick a part of anything.
Indian professional plumbers charge less money.
Japanese drivers drive car fast.
New socks look good.
Chinese cooks make delicious food.
When its positive it is OK but when its negative then how it can be applied who is doing that.
Indian professional plumbers charge more money. [means In.. prof. plumber who charge more money not the all]
Japanese drivers drive car rashly.[not all but refering to the one who drive rash]
Old socks smell. [not all but the one which smells]
Chinese cooks make bad food. [not all but the one who makes bad food]

No Joe, you dont have to change the language because you know what you wrote [and it was me who misunderstood]. No need to defence or say anything or speak in native american
I can say sorry because it needs guts to say so.
Again sorry for misunderstanding.
and forget this thread.
[because instead of people to say that yes I should have not taken name of any country. They are trying to defend something which I dont see anyway related to this thread and totally useless.]
Have a nice day.
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Ashok Krishnan:

The other night, at the local pub, someone was really pissed off with a loud group of American tourists and he called them 'W*nkers'. Now that wouldn't hurt any other American who was not at that scene, but if he was to call that group 'American w*nkers', I don't think other American friends wouldn't feel too nice about it!. I hope you are getting my point!

I am quoting myself! :roll:
I know its getting really boring in here, but I am really curious to know what Joe thinks of the above incident.
Is it acceptable to call a group of annoyingly loud tourists - who happened to be from America - 'American w*ankers', instead of just calling them 'w*nkers' which is derogatory enough?! As per your explanation (which is technically perfect, I agree) it would only mean 'a group of *bad* people, from America', but really, doesn't that sound a lot more offensive than that? Can you not sense a bit of hatred in there?
Now, I am asking this purely out of my own interest to put thru my point, because I am totally with you on the actual arguments of Visa abusers (from India and elsewhere) who miss-use the H1B policy and undercut American workers!
Cheers!
D. Rose
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 25, 2003
Posts: 215
Hi,
I have heard from some people in middle management in Indian Industry ( one from well known 'info' company) that they are given very unrealistic schedules ( e.g completing 200 person months project in 4 months with 20 people)so they have to slog like anything making their life difficult. I have also personally seen it sometime back.
So I think real cost cutting is coming at the cost of Indian workers as well! I think all IT workers should unite and demand respect and good working conditions for rhemselves rather than getting divided and emotional!
[ September 09, 2003: Message edited by: Rei Damle ]
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Wrong thread, Ashok. I suggest you take it to the obvious thread over on
Meaningless Drivel.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
Wrong thread, Ashok. I suggest you take it to the obvious thread over on
Meaningless Drivel.

Do you want it to be moved back to MD
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by R K Singh:

Do you want it to be moved back to MD

Nah. But the stuff about American W*nkers clearly belongs in a certain thread, don't you think?
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
I did see that other thread in MD, but I was too lazy to repeat my point again there - also no one there brought up the exact same usage 'Indian visa abusers', with out which, my 'American W*nkers' would look like just anti-american sentiments, which I don't have!
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Let's guess!
Thomas Paul's thread on inner and outer meanings.
This one could be taken down a notch or two.
Other threads have achieved a higher plane. :roll:
regards
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Let's try to continue in this thread as it provides potentially more constructive and less adversative context.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
more constructive and less adversative context.
I learned a new word today! I'd probably have used the word "adversarial".
Joe
 
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