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Atheism or Theism??

Devesh H Rao
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Joined: Feb 09, 2002
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Originally posted by Dave Lenton:

Essentially (and I haven't read the book in a while, so I may be remembering this wrong - Dawkins explains it much better then I could.) his idea is something along the lines of simple molecules forming into self replicating patterns as the starting point of evolution. He gives some examples of this - it is something which can happen fairly often in seemingly chaotic situations.




"In its preface, Dawkins states that he wrote the book "to persuade the reader, not just that the Darwinian world-view happens to be true, but that it is the only known theory that could, in principle, solve the mystery of our existence."

I have read that before... , I guess i will read the book for funtimes sake .

Anyways, I was running out of things to read...calvin and hobbes can only have so many answers to mysteries of life

[ May 25, 2007: Message edited by: Devesh H Rao ]
[ May 25, 2007: Message edited by: Devesh H Rao ]
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
There aren't many - there is exactly one species of Homo Sapians and it is Homo Sapiens. It is one of the greatest tragedies in human history that humanity has often been classified into seperate races - we're all the same!


I apologies, but in medical terms answer would be NO.

I do agree that as being a human, I also do believe that all human are same.


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Devesh H Rao:
run through the list of famous atheists and then continue...


And now let us run through other famous atheists..

1) Siddarth (Gautam Buddha)
2) Charles Darwin
3) Ayn Rand
4) Thomas Edison

and obviously Map
Ulf Dittmer
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  55
I really don't understand what listing supposed theists or atheists is supposed to prove or disprove. What any individual may have believed -or not- has no bearing on general principles.


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fred rosenberger
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  16

Originally posted by R K Singh:
I apologies, but in medical terms answer would be NO.

so, medically speaking, what is there beside Homo Sapiens?


There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors
Jim Yingst
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[Devesh Rao]: I would not like to get into that debate with you ... coz I do not think the outcome of that debate will anyhow add value to this thread.

Indeed. That was I point I tried to make before you tossed out your dubious list of names. Your contribution hasn't helped in that respect. And oddly, you continue to talk about it even after saying you don't want to debate it. Look, you can google "hitler atheist" and find many discussions and collections of contradictory quotations to muddy the waters. Enjoy. But can't we drop it here? Same for other lists of names and historical atrocities?

[Devesh Rao]: We also have lots of proof that events surrounding an entity get set into motion by a entity of superior-intelligence acting as a catalyst.

Um, proof? Does that word have a new meaning here that I don't know about? Perhaps you meant "evidence"? Which is, even then, quite arguable, but mostly it boils down to whether you consider the a priori probability of a pre-existing "superior intelligence" to be high or low compared to random chance, and whether you think that a theory should be able to account for the existence of the superior intelligence or not.


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stephen gates
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Joined: Apr 30, 2007
Posts: 69
As far as the person who says Religion never says to Kill anybody.
Last time I checked, "God" wiped out half the planet with a flood.
"God" blew up two separate towns.
"God" wiped out a bunch of soldiers so Moses and his tribe could make it to the other side.
"God" supposidly wanted Abraham to sacrafice his first born son.
"God" supposidly put various plagues on the Pharoah and his city.

The list goes on but maybe it says "Thou shall not Kill" but in the history book known as the Bible, "God" and his followers are responsible for killing many many people.

But as far as planets in some far off galaxy, pictures are not facts.
Nobody knows anything about those places. It's all based on assumptions and "faith." Pictures are not facts. They are just pictures. People say the Bible is written by Man and can't be taken as fact. It's just oral stories passed down into written stories.
Same thing can be said about pictures of planets far far away.

Some people have taken pictures of UFOs. Other people dismiss that UFOs are fake. Who really knows the truth.

If people can believe there are "aliens" out there even though nobody has really ever seen one, then why should people condemn those that believe "God" is out there. If you can believe crop circles and faded pictures, why can't you believe books and stories.
[ May 25, 2007: Message edited by: stephen gates ]
Jim Yingst
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Regarding The Blind Watchmaker, Dave brought that up in response to Devesh's questions about Max's comments (quoted by Map) about a possible role of crystals in clay in the initial formation of DNA replication. The relevant part of Dawkins' book is midway through chapter 6, where he talks about Graham Glennie-Smith's Clay theory as a possible explanation of abiogenesis.

[Devesh]: So Map, is the story of life a theory or conjecture?

It's a theory which is still mostly a conjecture. The statement was

"This is not to say that life arose on this planet from clay. It merely indicates that this was such a possibility - naturally, there is no evidence to support this either way"

This referred not to evolution of life in general (for which there is considerable evidence), but to the clay theory in particular, for one specific important step in the evolutionary process. There are other theories as well, with wider acceptance, but thus far there's a shortage of evidence allowing scientists to definitively choose among them. As far as I know.
fred rosenberger
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  16

But as far as planets in some far off galaxy, pictures are not facts. Nobody knows anything about those places. It's all based on assumptions and "faith."

There is a huge difference. Religion is based on "blind faith". You believe in something because you want to, with no evidence to support it beyond oral tradition, ancient writings, and mythologies.

Science relies on "evidence based faith". We have evidence of how things work here on earth. we have evidence of how thing work on the moon. We have evidence of how the robot lander worked on Earth, and what it sent back via radio waves from Mars.

We have ideas of how things work. People have taken those ideas and said "if I change THIS, I expect THAT to happen". If it does, the theory gets stronger. If it doesn't the theory gets weaker. All of this evidence builds up over time.

I rely on all that evidence as to where to put my faith.

I see a fundametal difference between a faith in a deity with NO supporting evidence, and my faith in science, that has REAMS of supporting evidence.

You, apparently, do NOT see a difference.
fred rosenberger
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One last comment... Everyone knows that life began on Earth when the Jagaroth ship explodes on takeoff, several million years ago.
Devesh H Rao
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Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
[Devesh Rao]: I would not like to get into that debate with you ... coz I do not think the outcome of that debate will anyhow add value to this thread.

Indeed. That was I point I tried to make before you tossed out your dubious list of names. Your contribution hasn't helped in that respect. And oddly, you continue to talk about it even after saying you don't want to debate it. Look, you can google "hitler atheist" and find many discussions and collections of contradictory quotations to muddy the waters. Enjoy. But can't we drop it here? Same for other lists of names and historical atrocities?



Jim I respect you for the knowledge and patience you show on MD... but i guess you skipped some of my post so if you missed something I said, here it is again...maybe I was not clear enough about the point I was trying to make.



I would not like to get into that debate with you ... coz I do not think the outcome of that debate will anyhow add value to this thread. I put in that post just to draw attention to that "fact" that blaming religion for all the ills is not that fair, A person who is religious today may turn an atheist and then religious again. And in the persons may have had a share of good and bad deeds. so what does that make of the person.



The outcome of the debate would have been if the so called list were actually atheist or not and that would not have proved anything or added any value to the thread instead it could have lead to more blame game and name calling which I wanted to avoid, this intention of mine I made it clear some post back as well

PS: why did religion even get dragged into the discussion.... God != Religion.
There is evidence to prove that religion has got more threads thrashed on MD than anything else and that is a fact so can we not go down that line please.







PS: Dave, I was curious about the point you mentioned about hitler being religious. I have read a bit of history around that times and also his memoirs. I all the time till now used to think his hatred was driven by his own devils and religion was not one of them. maybe I was wrong or have not read enough


Again does this in any way show arrogance on my part or not acceptance of my knowledge being incomplete in this respect.

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:


[Devesh Rao]: We also have lots of proof that events surrounding an entity get set into motion by a entity of superior-intelligence acting as a catalyst.

Um, proof? Does that word have a new meaning here that I don't know about? Perhaps you meant "evidence"? Which is, even then, quite arguable, but mostly it boils down to whether you consider the a priori probability of a pre-existing "superior intelligence" to be high or low compared to random chance, and whether you think that a theory should be able to account for the existence of the superior intelligence or not.


I gave these as examples....

If we consider software to be some kind of primary intelligence, humans created it. if we consider single celled organisms created in "labs" as some kind of intelligence, again humans created it so on and so forth.


And the defn of Proof: Definition => "conclusive evidence: evidence or an argument that serves to establish a fact or the truth of something".

Maybe I am not as good at english but I do get it right sometimes and this time I sure meant what I wrote.

And by the same relation as above my "question" was, is it possible that there is a probability of the protein cell kicking into life having a catalyst... now whatever that catalyst be I was talking about probability theory of that event and existence of the catalyst. it is not religion, its mathematics for crying out loud.
It may be highly improbable according to probability theory but to say the probability is zero is being unscientific.

And yes I would like to drop it now... not coz I wanted the last word but coz my words are misunderstood and maybe its my mistake in not communicationg properly.. so till the time I improve my skills I think I will belive in fred's theory..

One last comment... Everyone knows that life began on Earth when the Jagaroth ship explodes on takeoff, several million years ago.

[ May 25, 2007: Message edited by: Devesh H Rao ]
Ulf Dittmer
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  55
I think the horse is quite dead now. Everybody please help themselves to a beer on the house.
Jim Yingst
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[Devesh Rao]: We also have lots of proof that events surrounding an entity get set into motion by a entity of superior-intelligence acting as a catalyst.

Perhaps I focused on the wrong part of this sentence. Instead of asking about the "proof" I should have looked at "events... get set into motion...". I thought you were saying that this is something that always happens, and you were saying it's something that can happen. I think. So you're saying there can be a superior intelligence acting as catalyst, not that there must be one, is that right? In that case, I have no disagreement.
Devesh H Rao
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Posts: 687

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
[b][Devesh Rao]: So you're saying there can be a superior intelligence acting as catalyst, not that there must be one, is that right?


Yes...

I believe in probability theory of mathematics, in fact have had illusionary thoughts about mathematics being god..

God is mathematics.....



Anyways.. my bad.
Jim Yingst
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[Ulf]: I think the horse is quite dead now.

R K Singh
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Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Fred Rosenberger:

so, medically speaking, what is there beside Homo Sapiens?


that race is therefore a valid scientific category that can be used to explain and predict individual and group behavior. Races were distinguished by skin color, facial type, cranial profile and size, texture and color of hair.

But horse is dead now.

I agree with you, all human are basically homo sapiens.
Tony Alicea
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    5
Wow! FIVE pages and this thread hasn't been deleted yet! We must have reached a level of Civilization not seen in JavaRanch since Sept 11 2001!

Congratulations dudes and dudettes!
 
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