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Intra Ranch Go Game!

Bert Bates
author
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8813
    
    5
w - j 10

ouch


Spot false dilemmas now, ask me how!
(If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
Ryan McGuire
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Posts: 1006
    
    3
Originally posted by Bert Bates:
w - j 10

ouch


Glad to hear it. I hadn't read out the entire sequence.

b - g12

Moves 1-100:


Moves 101 on

Prisoners taken: White: 1, Black: 1
[ May 03, 2006: Message edited by: Ryan McGuire ]
Bert Bates
author
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8813
    
    5
w - f12

ouc h - i say ouch again
Peer Reynders
Bartender

Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 2922
    
    5
Didn't

W 24 n19 take B n18

and

B 133 n3 take W n4

making it

Prisoners taken: White 1, Black 1


BTW: Go++6 Level5 just resigned on black's move (With resign if hopeless enabled).
Never trust computers when it comes to Go.
[ May 02, 2006: Message edited by: Peer Reynders ]
Bert Bates
author
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8813
    
    5
Hey Peer -

I understand your question about the prisoner count, and I think you're correct.

But, I don't understand your BTW... what's that all about?

Bert
Peer Reynders
Bartender

Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 2922
    
    5
Originally posted by Bert Bates:
But, I don't understand your BTW... what's that all about?


For kicks I recorded the game into an ishi go file and loaded it into Go++ Version 6. Then I had it play black's move after your last move - it chose to resign.
Ryan McGuire
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Posts: 1006
    
    3
Originally posted by Peer Reynders:


For kicks I recorded the game into an ishi go file and loaded it into Go++ Version 6. Then I had it play black's move after your last move - it chose to resign.


SWEET! Well, Bert, since you're in a hopeless position, do you care to resign?

But seriously... I want to take a little while to think about this. I just know that the next move could be very important. But I did update the diagram and edited a message her on page 6.
[ May 03, 2006: Message edited by: Ryan McGuire ]
Peer Reynders
Bartender

Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Posts: 2922
    
    5
Originally posted by Ryan McGuire:
SWEET! Well, Bert, since you're in a hopeless position, do you care to resign?

  • One attraction of Go to people who spend way too much time in front of computers is that an even moderately competent player can still beat the best Go software engines (which is not true for chess). Bert can crush Many Faces of Go and Go++ isn't that much stronger, so that resignation should be taken with a big lump of salt.
  • You can always switch sides if you want to keep things interesting.



  • For what it's worth:
    Gopp6: B 141 n7
    MFoG11: B 141 f11 is your best move. Local shape move.

    (This is more of a commentary to anybody else who may be reading this.)
    [ May 03, 2006: Message edited by: Peer Reynders ]
    Ryan McGuire
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Feb 18, 2005
    Posts: 1006
        
        3
    Originally posted by Peer Reynders:

    For what it's worth:
    Gopp6: B 141 n7
    MFoG11: B 141 f11 is your best move. Local shape move.


    If Black play n7 now, it will prod White into connecting AND taking away one more liberty from those three black stones. With two liberties left those three might still prove useful.

    The cut at f11 is certainly one of the "obvious" responses to White's move at f12. Before that play though, is there anything Black can do in the k10 area to increase the profit?

    White has a LOT of one, two and three stone groups that aren't quite connected. Black really needs to make sure he attacks them in the right order. F11 just might be the right first move. But n7? pfff.
    Bert Bates
    author
    Sheriff

    Joined: Oct 14, 2002
    Posts: 8813
        
        5
    I agree with Ryan that n7 is a bad move for Black. Pop Quiz: In addition to the reasons that Ryan gave, can anyone come up with another important reason that n7 is bad?

    I think it's totally GREAT that computers can't play Go for s**t. It makes me happy that those pesky digital confusers haven't taken over everything yet. BTW, did I mention that there's a $10 million prize out for the first Go program that can beat a blackbelt? Something for you coders out there with time on your hands to work on
    Bert Bates
    author
    Sheriff

    Joined: Oct 14, 2002
    Posts: 8813
        
        5
    Another topic...

    At this point in the game the middle game is winding down, and the end game is about to start. While there is still the possibility that a big fight might break out somewhere, barring that black and white will start to think about taking profit. That brings up the notion of sente and gote (both end in a hard "a" sound.)

    Sente is what you want, sente means that you have the initiative. It means that when you make a move, your opponent responds, directly or at least fairly directly, to your move. That means you get to make the next move - if he responds to that, you get to do it again. In this way, you can sometimes see one player "following the other player around the board". (BTW gote is what the guy who's doing the following has - yuch!).

    Sente is one of the most important ideas in Go. So, as we enter into the endgame, Sente takes on some interesting new dimensions - for instance if one move only gains 3 or 4 points, but retains Sente, it's often better than another move that takes 10 or 15 points, but ends n gote. So sometimes you'll see sequences left undone, and that's often because to finish a sequence might change a situation from sente to gote...
    Bert Bates
    author
    Sheriff

    Joined: Oct 14, 2002
    Posts: 8813
        
        5
    a shameless bump, looking for black's killing move
    Ryan McGuire
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Feb 18, 2005
    Posts: 1006
        
        3
    There, I think the delay has been long enough now that I can plead failing memory if Black loses now.

    Black: F13
    Bert Bates
    author
    Sheriff

    Joined: Oct 14, 2002
    Posts: 8813
        
        5
    Wow! it all comes flooding back now

    how about s15...
    Ryan McGuire
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Feb 18, 2005
    Posts: 1006
        
        3
    Bert Bates wrote:Wow! it all comes flooding back now

    how about s15...


    After move 142, the board looks like this:



    You could give the online interactive version of the game a try using the GoodShape applet at playgo.to. Just go tot he URL below. (I couldn't figure out how to make a link to a URL that contains square brackets.)



    It's been a little while since I've looked at this game, but if I recall correctly, Black is behind by 20 points or so. If he continues to play "honest" moves, he's going to lose. He's got to let White have the first (and maybe second) move on all the the honest fronts and figure out some way to lop off huge chunks of white territory and/or stones. ...but I may be mistaken.

    Anyhow, Black to move. Anyone want to take a stab at it? Bert?

    Bert Bates
    author
    Sheriff

    Joined: Oct 14, 2002
    Posts: 8813
        
        5
    wow!

    Very interesting how an old game like this still has a few hooks in my memory...

    Well I agree that B is in tough shape, the only slim possibility I see is to make something happen with the 75-77 stones, either B13 or C8 seem like the best chance, but from where I'm sitting neither of those quite work. But perhaps someone can find a way?
     
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