Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
There is no point in argueing with these guys.
BTW, are you from TamilNadu?
Originally posted by Mark Milan:
Here is where "stupid logic" comes into play.
By my reckoning, conversion of a fellow citizen is NOT harming him or his property. A thug looting a fellow citizen IS harming him or his property. To make the link that:
- Jason would not interfere in a religious conversion, therefore...
- Jason would not interfere in the looting of a fellow citizen.
Perhaps Jason would not interfere in either, but your logic is flawed.
However, by applying your logic back on you, can I be correct in assuming that you place looting and religious conversion in the same category?
If so, then this explains a lot...
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The intolerant rarely enjoy have their intolerance and hatred exposed.
Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:
Yeah, that's true. My objective was never to convince them. It's a waste of energy. My objective was to encourage Indians to be assertive without shame. We, being a people of a third world and poor country, think that our culture and beliefs are inferior to theirs and we almost never assert what we feel. We, by default, assume that we are wrong. This attitude is reflected by our leadership as well. Look at china, they don't give a s*** about what others like UK/US think. They do what they want with full conviction. While Indian leaders dance around the globe pleasing US etc. I mean, if we conducted nuclear tests, what's the need to justify that to the west??? We felt there was a need and we did it. And why do we have to do it clandestinely? It is because of this attitude that countries like Pak and BDesh are ganging up on us.
The point is our culture is neither inferior nor superior, it is just different than theirs and there should be no hesitation to refuse any thing from their culture if it doesn't suit us. And on the same note, there should be any hesitation is assimilating into our culture what ever is beneficial to us.
And another thing is, we are responsible for ourselves. Who cares if other people do not agree with us?? Did they care when Hindus were massacared in Pak or B'Desh? No. Why would they? It's none of their business. Similarly, they have no business in preaching us the virtues of freedom of speech etc.
We know for a fact that missionaries and mullahs are creating trouble in our country. That's all that matters. Based on our observation we can take whatever action we deem necessary. No need to prove to anybody except other Indians.
No, I'm not from TN.
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The solution is to do away with the caste system and start treating people like human beings instead of chattel.
They want missionaries to help all the poor so they don't have to. The missionaries probably have limited funds so they help those who convert. Some people see this as a bribe.
Imagine a soup kitchen in a poor neighborhood. The people who run the soup kitchen say they have very limited resources so they can only feed poor parishioners. Do we curse them for not feeding everyone? Or do we applaud them for doing what they can to help those they can? Do we claim they are bribing people to convert?
Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:
Your logic is correct but your basic premise of what constitues a personal property is flawed. Obviously, your inference will be wrong.
I believe, wrongfull conversions affect the society as a whole. I believe that because I have observed it first hand. And that's why I am putting looting personal property (at gun point or by fraud such as Enron scam) as well looting one of one's spiritual identity (by physical force or bribe) into the same category. If you have a problem accepting this philosophy, then I am sorry, we have nothing to discuss.
Originally posted by Mark Milan:
The problem is that you are trying to explain your views in this forum, and you are coming across as racist and intolerable.
However, bringing the world to the brink of Nuclear Disaster by conducting above-ground n-tests against the wishes of the international community goes against them.
As does directing hatred and blaming your problems on a segment of society, such as missionaries and mullahs.
Please don't act surprised because people disagree with your point of view.
Originally posted by Mark Milan:
Pakka:
It is interesting to see that you have added bribery to the list of unacceptable methods of conversion.
Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:
Which post of mine made to think that I am racist? Where did I say that Indian culture and people are superior to others?
Get your facts straight mister.
I am not blaming all the problems on them. I was the first to admit that we have to improve. I am saying that they are one of the problems.
Originally posted by Mark Milan:
Pakka:
If I read you correctly, then you are placing a person's spiritual identity as part of their personal property (I apologize if this is not your intent).
Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:
Please do yourself a favor: Please read all the posts that have been made before. I have not added anything new.
Originally posted by Mark Milan:
I don't think that's an opinion - that's an application of a definition.
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
There's the rub. Who gets to decide? You?
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Clearly you do. But you are wrong. Your train analogy is wrong. let's say you and all friends sit on the train with both feet flat on the floor. A man comes in and tells your friends that sitting cross legged is much more comfortable. He even offers them $5 to try it. They accept and decide they like sitting cross legged. Is it your right to beat up the man for bribing your friends into violating your cultural beliefs?
Christians don't steal light bulbs or wheels on trains. What they are doing is pointing out to some of the people on the train that they are being forced to sit in the lousy seats in order to support a system that lets others sit in the buffet car. And that the only reason for this is because they had the "wrong" parents. Naturally, those who are in the buffet car resent this intrusion on what they see as their right to the buffet car. And rather than address a system that keeps people out of the buffet car, they hire thugs to throw the Christians off the train.
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Why? What makes your opinion better than that of the poor? Because you aren't an "untouchable"? Because you are better than them? Because they are too stupid to make decisions that effect their lives?
You certainly do have hubris.
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Why should they work to improve a system designed to perpetuate human suffering? Why not overhaul the train?
Originally posted by Mark Milan:
I HAVE read all the posts, and my point was that rather than just using the phrase "forced conversion" you used the phrase "looting one of one's spiritual identity (by physical force or bribe)". In reading the previous posts, I felt that there was a failure to communicate because of what each person's definition of "forced conversion" was.
BTW - the phrase "looting one of one's spiritual identity" is very elegant.
Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
Since you are keep chanting about bribary over force, let me tell you this. We dont care what word you use, because you dont know the ground reality. Have you ever been to India? I grown up there, so I know what the difference between bribary and force. Force doesnt have to be a physical force. US forced Pakistan to aligh with them in the war on terriorism (terriorism which targets western interests). Did they use any physical force for that?
Ok anyway, let me take your point, say they are bribing the poor community to accept chiristianity in return for money. What is your thought on this? Is it bad or is it ok to take whatever means to convert peoples faith?
And I posted links about how the missionaries and church help terriorist in northeastern part of India. Did any of you care to condemn it? Here all I am seeing is people worry about some missionaries got killed.
Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
[QB]
Ok anyway, let me take your point, say they are bribing the poor community to accept chiristianity in return for money. What is your thought on this? Is it bad or is it ok to take whatever means to convert peoples faith?
[QB]
Aniruddha
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Originally posted by Mark Milan:
I don't live in India; I may never even visit - that is my loss. I do have a set of values (and definitions) that I believe in. I know that Jesus told his followers to love unconditionally, so my opinion is that these Christian Missionaries, if they are using bribery as a tool for conversion, are not following the Word of God.
Originally posted by aniruddha mukhopadhyay:
I hope many will agree that same is true for religious problems elsewhere in the world ..say Ireland.
Originally posted by aniruddha mukhopadhyay:
I hope many will agree that same is true for religious problems elsewhere in the world ..say Ireland.
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
I am learning quite a bit about the US in this thread.
Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
That said it all. No more questions.
Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
well.. I dont know what socity you belong. Is that what they define as freedom? What is the diffence between you and the "rebels" who killed the missionaries? They hurt people physically and your socity hurt people mentally. And, I dont want to come down to your level and saying anyting about your wife or sister or daughter. I expect you will have that same decency and engage in a civilized discussion.
And, You are talking about speech and violence, I am talking about THINK(freedom of thought) and ACT(hurting other people by your action, mental or physical). You still didnt get it, dont you?
Shubhrajit
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
[QB]
This is a common misconception. If you look into the situation in Northern Ireland, you will see that the problems are not religious, they are cultural and political.
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Such as?
Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
People do it in the US all the time
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
It's none of your business.
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
This is a common misconception. If you look into the situation in Northern Ireland, you will see that the problems are not religious, they are cultural and political.
[ flickr ]
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
you will see that the problems are not religious, they are cultural and political.
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I think this says it all. Protect yourself? What a laugh. India will never become a first world country as long as attitudes like your's exist. Want to know why you have religious problems in India? Look in the mirror.
Aniruddha