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H1-B activism or hope things get better?

Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by Jon McDonald:
Hey all, I've got a quick question on this issue
If all of this H1-B stuff is adversely affecting engineers, shouldn't it just result in a lowering of the average salary, as opposed to a lot of unemployeed engineers.
If Company X would rather pay $35k to an Indian programmer, as opposed to $50k to an American programmer, wouldn't the American programmer still have an advantage if he were willing to take the $35k.
Jon

Jon,
One of the documented problems with the H1 program is how the "value" of a software developer is measured. I find the following very interesting:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Severe Problems in the Concept of "Prevailing Wage"
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html#tth_sEc9.2.5
9.2.5 Severe Problems in the Concept of "Prevailing Wage" H-1B law requires the employer to pay the foreign worker the "prevailing wage," which industry lobbyists have cited as "proof" that the H-1Bs are not exploited. But this law is riddled with loopholes.
Even if an H-1B employer pays a prevailing wage determined by a government survey, that wage will usually be lower than the market rate for the job's skill requirement, as follows. As explained earlier, the only programmers who are enjoying large increases in salary as those with "hot" skills, say Java. H-1Bs are brought to this country ostensibly for those skills. Yet an employer need only pay the prevailing wage for programmers in general, rather than the prevailing wage for, say, Java programmers. Thus the employer gets a Java programmer for the price of a generic programmer - all while technically complying with the prevailing-wage requirement of the law. As noted by immigration attorney Donna Fujioka of Oakland, California (interview with the author, March 5, 1998),

[The prevailing wage law] takes a meataxe approach...It doesn't appreciate how hot a skill is [such as SAP]...This is great if you are an attorney representing an SAP programmer.
footnote: Fujioka did counter that by complaining that the new DOL regulation implemented in 1998 sets up two only categories for prevailing wage, Entry Level and Experienced, asserting that this was unfair since the worker with five years of experience will be measured against a prevailing wage calculated on a group that includes people with 25 years of experience. But as seen in my "short-lived career" data above, almost no one lasts 25 years in this field, so the point is moot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For a real world example, see the following:
Bank of America (BofA) in Charlotte, NC
In the end, the H1 program has may problems. The "prevailing" wage is one of them.
Rich

---------------------------------------------------
Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html
NORMAN MATLOFF'S IMMIGRATION FORUM
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/pub/Immigration/Index.html
[ August 25, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
Some reading for the interested. I know I missed at least one hot one.
http://www.coderanch.com/t/27197/Jobs/careers/Visas-IT-Dirty-little-secret
http://www.coderanch.com/t/27064/Jobs/careers/dying
http://www.coderanch.com/t/26989/Jobs/careers/Why-hatred
http://www.coderanch.com/t/26962/Jobs/careers/Should-Foreign-Workers-Boot-When
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by Jon McDonald:
The reason I bring this up is that during my work and when I was looking for a job, I constantly heard 2 complants from employers and recruiters when looking for labor.
1) So many applicants were not skilled enough for the position. We're not talking about having run Java on every platform known, but rather not having solid Object-Oriented Analysis and Design Skill, not being knowledgeable about the programming language, or simply not having enough (or any) development experience.
2) Applicants who were not fluent in english. I used to always wonder what "must have excellent communication skills" meant in those advertisements. I assumed all these companies wanted master orators who could inspire people with Kennedy like speeches to write the greatest code in history. Finally, a hiring manager put it best when he said "We're looking for people who speak f*%king English".
Also, the majority of ads that I see online (and on company web sites) specifically state "Must be U.S. citizn or permanent resident, no Sponsorship"
To be perfectly honest, I'm not quite sure where I fall on this issue. Would it be better for me financially if they're were no H1-B Visa programmers in the U.S. (and no ability to outsource work, maybe. But two things prevent me from getting up in arms about this issue
1) This is the reality of what we as Americans are living in. No point (for me, anyway) in crying about it.
2) My ego is just way to big to believe that these folks are a threat to me. I don't ever want to work for an employer that will look and my skills and credentials and somebody they can import and pick the other person solely because he is cheaper. Any company that has that little regard for the quality of its employees has little regard for the quality of its software, and is not a place I want to work.
Now If this guy they can import is just more qualified than me, well hey, I hope he likes the job.
looking back on it, I'm sure there were times when I was in competion for a job with an H1-B, me with my social science bachleors and a shiney SCJP2 certificate, and them with there bachleors (and possibly masters) in CS and a few years experience under their belt. In those cases, THEY DESERVED THE JOB OVER ME. What can I say. No point crying about it. Thats why I'm going back to school.
Jon

Jon,
In my experience, finding the right skills is important. However, when companies say they cannot find US applicants with the right "skills," they are usually saying they cannot find someone who will work cheaply.
Unfortunately, they are a threat to you. You have to consider how "normal economic" equilibrium is reached. When there are many more job applicants than jobs, salaries decrease. There are hundreds of thousands of people who would like to come here on H1s from various countries. Hence, if they were given H1s, there could be one thousand or more applicants for a job. Even with the current number of H1s and unemployed US citizens, I have heard of some openings receiving eight hundred resumes. Do you think any company is going to pay a penny more than they have to for the position? They may be able to get away with paying $20,000. The Indian who takes the job will probably not have tens of thousands of dollars in student loans to repay. For the next position, given the large pool of applicants, they will see what they can get for $15,000. It just keeps going downhill.
I understand what you are saying about quality. However, so many US companies and their shareholders are focused on the bottom line. The US citizens, who are shareholders, do not care if the company lays off US citizens. If the bottom line looks better, it is all good to them. If this is not the case, we would have seen the shareholders protest the laying off of US citizens while keeping H1s.
You stated:
"Also, the majority of ads that I see online (and on company web sites) specifically state "Must be U.S. citizen or permanent resident, no Sponsorship"
If you are new to the H1B issue, it is not clear what is stated here. What they are doing is a CYA (Cover Your A$$). They want to appear to be looking for US citizens first. When they cannot find the "perfect" US citizen at a cheap rate, they will look for H1s. Then, they could "claim" they followed the law. In reality, they probably would have never found a US citizen because they were not willing to pay a fair wage. In other cases, they have no intention of finding a US citizen. This happens all too often.
I found the following statement troubling:
"This is the reality of what we as Americans are living in. No point (for me, anyway) in crying about it."
It is not "crying about it." Many, many companies are blatant breaking the H1 laws. Some are skirting them. It is not about emotion. It is not an issue of "right or wrong." It is about the law.
As for going back to school, that will probably make no difference. Given the current economic conditions, you can be assured several of the applicants will have a BSCS or equivalent. Some will have a MSCS or equivalent. So, until you have your MSCS or equivalent, you will be in the "less" educated group. The differentiators among the "reasonably" educated are skills, experience, and salary requirements. If you are applying for a job with 500 other applicants, to have a chance, your skills and experience will need to be pretty much a perfect match. You'll have to hope one of the other applicants is not a perfect match.
In the end, I think a quote I read recently sums it up. This is a paraphrase. "If you are a software developer, get ready for intense competition for lower paying jobs."
Rich
[ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
http://www.programmersguild.org/american.htm
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Petition to Abolish the H-1B Visa Program
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
I surfed though some of these links and found one I thought was dated, long and an accurate description of the way the big boys play the game.
Labor Shortage
You Indian boys ought to read about life in America as a defacto-slave.
Andy Chen
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 25, 2002
Posts: 7
Originally posted by Rufus Bugleweed:
I surfed though some of these links and found one I thought was dated, long and an accurate description of the way the big boys play the game.
Labor Shortage
You Indian boys ought to read about life in America as a defacto-slave.

Didn't somebody try telling the same thing to these people as well ?. Defacto-slave until one gets a greencard , and after that ? The H1B law makes it easier to cross the border without risking the lives of people.
And there is a possibility that one might get compensated due to slave reparation lawsuits after getting a greencard too right ?
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by Andy Chen:

Didn't somebody try telling the same thing to these people as well ?. Defacto-slave until one gets a greencard , and after that ? The H1B law makes it easier to cross the border without risking the lives of people.
And there is a possibility that one might get compensated due to slave reparation lawsuits after getting a greencard too right ?

Andy,
If this lunacy of slave reparations actually comes to fruition, there should be many people lining up to sue these "relatives" of the slaves. The first group could be the families of the soldiers who gave their lives for the cause. The second group could be the soldiers and civilians who were wounded. The third group could be anyone who lost property in this conflict. Also, you have to keep in mind some slaves were given land or other property. How do you account for this?
If anyone was sued, it should have been the individuals who became wealthy from slave labor. I�m sure some of the wealthy families today can trace their money back to slave labor. As for my family, they were ordinary working people.
This sets a very dangerous precedent for what "evidence" really is. Due to the time lapse and lack of hard evidence of which individuals should be compensated and how much, there is no basis for a lawsuit.
If this does come to fruition, I see many other groups filing suit. The Indians, the group who held the land when the Europeans arrived, will probably be next. After that, who knows? The only certain things are the lawyers will become very wealthy and the taxpayers will be out millions or even billions of dollars.
Rich
[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]
Paul Villangca
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 04, 2002
Posts: 133
Hi all,
Originally posted by Rufus Bugleweed:
You Indian boys ought to read about life in America as a defacto-slave.

I really don't think trying to deter H-1B applicants (from India, or any other Third World country) from applying will have any effect. You might see $20,000/yr as 'peanuts' or 'part-time', but for most (if not all) H-1Bs, it's a windfall, wages they could And that's at the lower end of the spectrum - $40k+ is a ticket to the (really!) good life. Five years of below-prevailing wage is nothing compared to what they would've earned had they stayed in their country. Also, the promise of the coveted green card (American Dream?) afterwards is more than enough reason for enduring second-class citizen treatment.
I personally don't know where I stand on this H-1B issue (I've never even heard of it until I came to this forum), but I don't think blaming people for wanting a better life helps the situation any.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
Nobody is blaming anybody for wanting a better life.
I was trying to make two pointss with my post.
1) Sometimes these threads get into a shouting match between the natives and the immigrants. The natives start looking like men in hooded robes with burning crosses. The immigrants start taking pot shots at the natives.
But I don't think it's the natives against the immigrants. It's labor versus the capitalists.
2) That article is being served by a .edu entity. Now it could bogus. But it says a numbet of things a person in the old country might find interesting before they make a move.
The money they tell you up front might not be what you get here.
H1-B has to work harder for less money for about five years. They delay to make it longer. I'm going to bet we can get testimonials from H1-B's around here who happened to get laid off just before they got to the five year mark. It's a scam artist's old trick.
Once an H1-B person gets a green card they are going to face the same age discrimmination as the natives. Only they have to deal with racial discrimination too.
How many start as programmer and end up working as motel desk or convienience store clerk with wife as a maid? Whoa baby, the bright lights, the American dream - cleaning up other people's shit for minimum wage.
$40,000/year and falling isn't that much money in America. Some are going to do better.
Would some H1-B's in America have too much pride to tell the truth? Some on the above link are giving a view a smooth talking recruiter won't.
[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by Paul Villangca:
Hi all,

I really don't think trying to deter H-1B applicants (from India, or any other Third World country) from applying will have any effect. You might see $20,000/yr as 'peanuts' or 'part-time', but for most (if not all) H-1Bs, it's a windfall, wages they could And that's at the lower end of the spectrum - $40k+ is a ticket to the (really!) good life. Five years of below-prevailing wage is nothing compared to what they would've earned had they stayed in their country. Also, the promise of the coveted green card (American Dream?) afterwards is more than enough reason for enduring second-class citizen treatment.
I personally don't know where I stand on this H-1B issue (I've never even heard of it until I came to this forum), but I don't think blaming people for wanting a better life helps the situation any.

Paul,
I really do not think the issue here is "blaming people for wanting a better life." It is the blatant abuse of the H1-B laws by a variety of companies. To see how they "underpay" the H1-B workers, click
here. You have to admit this is not right.
CBuilder
[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]
JiaPei Jen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 19, 2000
Posts: 1309
I don't think it's the natives against the immigrants. It's labor versus the capitalists.

agree 200%.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
You can write your congress person. You can call George Bush. Bill Gates has already paid them off.
Congress has two masters: social security crowd and the big money boys.
Neither of them cares about the working people in this country.
Congress already gave you a solution. Working men died fighting for it. But it's not the perfect solution you want.
Keep telling yourself Bill Gates, Larry Ellison and George Bush are your friends. They are going to take care of you.
Looks to me like they don't want to compete for labor on price.
What's the umpire say at the beginning of a baseball match, "Play Ball".
Andy Chen
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 25, 2002
Posts: 7
Originally posted by Paul Villangca:
Hi all,

I really don't think trying to deter H-1B applicants (from India, or any other Third World country) from applying will have any effect. You might see $20,000/yr as 'peanuts' or 'part-time', but for most (if not all) H-1Bs, it's a windfall, wages they could And that's at the lower end of the spectrum - $40k+ is a ticket to the (really!) good life. Five years of below-prevailing wage is nothing compared to what they would've earned had they stayed in their country. Also, the promise of the coveted green card (American Dream?) afterwards is more than enough reason for enduring second-class citizen treatment.
I personally don't know where I stand on this H-1B issue (I've never even heard of it until I came to this forum), but I don't think blaming people for wanting a better life helps the situation any.

I also agree with Rufus and Richard. And about the slave thing i mentioned above , that was sarcasm intended.
What i wanted to highlight from my post was that there is no difference between a "coyote" , "pollos" , or "sacadineros" and the companies who exploit H1B.
Paul Villangca
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 04, 2002
Posts: 133
Hi all,
It is the blatant abuse of the H1-B laws by a variety of companies.

I actually read Rufus' link yesterday - quite interesting reading... Anyway, it can't be denied that there are abuses, and the enforcement agencies have their hands tied. Nevertheless, it's not that hard to understand why this is happening in the first place. In fact, one can say that this is just an offshoot of 'capitalism' and 'free-market forces'. Competition is so cut-throat that companies are cutting costs whenever thay can, and H-1B labor is as cheap as it gets.
Also, I don't think it's fair to compare the plight of these H-1Bs to labor camps and illegal immigrants. H-1Bs have it easy compared to people who are fighting for their very survival.
And about the slave thing i mentioned above , that was sarcasm intended.

Sarcasm or not, people will be offended by these kinds of remarks. Stereotyping an entire country/race/people will only invite trouble.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
Competition is so cut-throat that companies are cutting costs whenever thay can

No, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, and thousands more make real good money.
The companies have so much money they won't hire a person direct. They hire an experienced worker through a contracting house. Many of the contracting shops in my market have premium office space and many of the pimps make real money.
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by Paul Villangca:
Anyway, it can't be denied that there are abuses, and the enforcement agencies have their hands tied. Nevertheless, it's not that hard to understand why this is happening in the first place. In fact, one can say that this is just an offshoot of 'capitalism' and 'free-market forces'. Competition is so cut-throat that companies are cutting costs whenever thay can, and H-1B labor is as cheap as it gets.

Paul,
I could not disagree with you more. This is a legal issue. These companies and believe it or not, school districts are committing criminal acts. Saying "the enforcement agencies have their hands tied" is not an acceptable attitude. So, I guess you would say we should stop prosecuting other criminals. Which criminals do we prosecute? Only murderers? Only murderers and rapists? What about the "capitalists" illegally selling guns or other items? Should criminals only be prosecuted if they committed an act against you or your family? In the end, they all need to be prosecuted.
Your comment of this being "offshoot of 'capitalism' and 'free-market forces'" is a sad but true commentary. Many people and corporations are willing to do just about anything for money. Breaking the law is not uncommon. According to your statement, that is acceptable to you.
In summary, the actions of these school districts and corporations are harming both the American worker and the H1-B. First, these organizations are harming the American workers by illegally replacing them with H1-Bs. Second, they are harming the H1-B workers by not paying them the
going market rate; they are paying them the "prevailing wage."

Rich
[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]
JiaPei Jen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 19, 2000
Posts: 1309
I found this at another web site, I think it is well said:

I totally relate to that sentiment in that many people feel oppressed or isolated in their situation and that no one would want to support them or ask them to be part of a large movement. I feel that this is a growing movement and that if we could somehow expand social awareness then more people would want to become part of it. The working class is in some elite corporate views an expendable or renewable resource that is always there and can be imported at will like any other commodity. This is however, a fallacious premise as the working class is a human one and there are certain things they will not tolerate.

I am not an attorney, I do not know much about the law. I am curious to know:
accounting fraud: illegal!
overseas tax shelter: legal?
bribing lawmakers: legal?
fraudulent claim that none of the domestic workers meets the exact skills mix required: legal?
circumventing rules to make every extra dollar: legal?
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by JiaPei Jen:
I found this at another web site, I think it is well said:

I am not an attorney, I do not know much about the law. I am curious to know:
accounting fraud: illegal!
overseas tax shelter: legal?
bribing lawmakers: legal?
fraudulent claim that none of the domestic workers meets the exact skills mix required: legal?
circumventing rules to make every extra dollar: legal?

JiaPei,
I'm not an attorney but I play one on TV.
overseas tax shelter: illegal in most cases
bribing lawmakers: illegal - but "influencing" lawmakers with "contributions" is legal
fraudulent claim that none of the domestic workers meets the exact skills mix required: illegal - against the letter of the H1-B laws but done by many companies
circumventing rules to make every extra dollar: it is illegal if they are breaking laws
Rich
flying jordan
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 02, 2002
Posts: 22
First, currently very very few companies are still hiring H1B because of the bad economy. Secondly, few years ago congressed passed a bill to increase the H1B quota from 100,000 to 190,000
per year. However the number for last year was less than 65,000 and the number is even smaller this year. So the economy automatically adjusts the situation. I know many H1B visa holders have left for home countries.
At this moment it is meaningless to write that letter. I think it is more meaningful to demand some more effective policy to help economy recover. The congress and president should do something.
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by flying jordan:
First, currently very very few companies are still hiring H1B because of the bad economy. Secondly, few years ago congressed passed a bill to increase the H1B quota from 100,000 to 190,000
per year. However the number for last year was less than 65,000 and the number is even smaller this year. So the economy automatically adjusts the situation. I know many H1B visa holders have left for home countries.
At this moment it is meaningless to write that letter. I think it is more meaningful to demand some more effective policy to help economy recover. The congress and president should do something.

flying jordan,
I totally disagree. If there is one H1-B here who could be replaced by an American worker, that individual should be sent home. So, using your own figures, there should be 65,000 H1-Bs packing their bags right now. They are not. They are still working. You want to paint the picture that ALL the H1-Bs are gone. There are still tens of thousands of H1-Bs here. They are still employed here illegally because there are unemployed American citizens to fill those positions. So, the issue still exists.
Whatever you think we should "demand" be done, it must include sending home ALL of the H1-Bs. That, in itself, will not cure all of the economic issues. However, it will give employment to tens of thousands of unemployed American workers. For the economy, it is a step in the right direction.
Rich
Jim Baker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 10, 2002
Posts: 177
The reason that H1Bs are staying and will stay
here is the cost. A recruiter said that he can
find a Java developer for $7/hour.
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by Jim Baker:
The reason that H1Bs are staying and will stay
here is the cost. A recruiter said that he can
find a Java developer for $7/hour.

Jim,
So, are you proposing we just look the other way when the law is being so blatantly broken? First, there are Americans who have the skills. Second, they are not even paying the "low" "prevailing wage. What are your thoughts?
Rich
Paul Villangca
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 04, 2002
Posts: 133
Hi Richard,
Saying "the enforcement agencies have their hands tied" is not an acceptable attitude.
...
In the end, they all need to be prosecuted.

And how do you propose to do that? Under the existing rules, you don't have a case if no one will complain, and few H-1Bs are gonna risk their greencard application for something that may very well come back at them in the end (restarting the whole application process, or even deportation.)
Your comment of this being "offshoot of 'capitalism' and 'free-market forces'" is a sad but true commentary.
...
According to your statement, that is acceptable to you.

I never said that. Just as the US and other developed countries force Third World countries to lower their trade barriers in the name of 'free trade', the industry is using its clout to hire cheap labor under the pretense of this 'labor shortage'. The ones who lose out are those who can't afford to be more competitive, be it price or salary.
Sorry if this seems a bit blunt, but why do you care if the H-1Bs are paid below the 'prevailing wage'? It's not like they're getting paid in pennies, it's still way more than what they would've gotten in their home country (for 3rd World, anyway.) Also, H-1Bs getting their just wages won't help your cause any.
Paul
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by Paul Villangca:
And how do you propose to do that? Under the existing rules, you don't have a case if no one will complain, and few H-1Bs are gonna risk their greencard application for something that may very well come back at them in the end (restarting the whole application process, or even deportation.)
Sorry if this seems a bit blunt, but why do you care if the H-1Bs are paid below the 'prevailing wage'? It's not like they're getting paid in pennies, it's still way more than what they would've gotten in their home country (for 3rd World, anyway.) Also, H-1Bs getting their just wages won't help your cause any.

Paul,
You are seeing things from the H1-B's perspective. Taking the slant you are taking, the H1-B should take what he or she can get. However, it is still illegal.
I'm looking at it from the US citizen's point of view. So, by employing and paying H1-Bs less than they should they are "getting away" with two things. First, they are committing a crime by stating they could not "find" a US citizen with the "skills" required. Second, they are underpaying the H1-Bs. This makes abuse of the H1-B laws even more attractive. Replacing American workers with even cheaper H1-Bs is only going to increase the number of H1-Bs since this helps the most important bottom line. This proves that crime DOES pay.
You stated, "Also, H-1Bs getting their just wages won't help your cause any." In the end, it definitely will help. As I stated earlier, if nothing else, it will make the H1-Bs a little less attractive. In the end, if these companies actually follow the letter of the existing law, things would be much better.
Rich
[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]
flying jordan
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 02, 2002
Posts: 22
Rich,
So, your point is to stop issuing new H1B visas at this moment, right ? Then, how do you want to handle those H1B visa holders who got their visa one or two years ago and are currently working in this country ? Do you think we should take back their visas and send them home ? If this still doesn't help, do you think we should start sending those non-citizen permanent residents home ? then if there are still unemployed citizens, what should we do ? Maybe we should start sending new immigrants (citizens) home by the order of their immigration dates ?? Then I guess Collin Powell won't be happy with your proposal.
There are many ways to solve problems. The most critical issue here is the economy. Your idea somehow goes to an extreme direction. Although it may eases the employment situation a little bit temporarily, but I do not think it is a smart strategy to solve problems. Your proposal will cause negative side effects in the long run. You can't kill the chicken to eat the egg.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
Sorry if this seems a bit blunt, but why do you care if the H-1Bs are paid below the 'prevailing wage'? It's not like they're getting paid in pennies, it's still way more than what they would've gotten in their home country (for 3rd World, anyway.) Also, H-1Bs getting their just wages won't help your cause any.

Is it in humanities' best interest to drive down the wages paid to people working in science and technology?
Maybe in a pure economic analysis re-allocating the work to the cheapest workers makes sense. But a number of Americans have made a great deal of commitment to their profession and can't go back in time. You're indicating that it is sad but necessary fact of life that they ought to get an application for work at a nearby fast food place.
If the scientific and technical community can be replaced by cheaply paid immigrants, why don't you level the playing field? Let as many immigrants as want move from India to the US. I want to pay Indian wages for bank clerks, taxi drivers, air line pilots, postal, government and public utility workers to name a few.
We like blunt, it's easy to deal with.
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by flying jordan:
Rich,
So, your point is to stop issuing new H1B visas at this moment, right ? Then, how do you want to handle those H1B visa holders who got their visa one or two years ago and are currently working in this country ? Do you think we should take back their visas and send them home ? If this still doesn't help, do you think we should start sending those non-citizen permanent residents home ? then if there are still unemployed citizens, what should we do ? Maybe we should start sending new immigrants (citizens) home by the order of their immigration dates ?? Then I guess Collin Powell won't be happy with your proposal.
There are many ways to solve problems. The most critical issue here is the economy. Your idea somehow goes to an extreme direction. Although it may eases the employment situation a little bit temporarily, but I do not think it is a smart strategy to solve problems. Your proposal will cause negative side effects in the long run. You can't kill the chicken to eat the egg.

flying jordan,
Yes, all of the individuals who are not citizens should be sent home. It is that simple. They were here on a "temporary" basis. Since they are clearly no longer needed, they can go home. You miss the issue the individuals were brought here to meet a "need." The intent was never to make these individuals US citizens.
As for the "parasite" politicians, they do not care about the population in general. They only care about money and power.
I do not see my idea as "extreme" at all. It simply applies some very basic economic principles. I fail to see any downside to sending home these unneeded workers. What could possibly be the long term "negative side effects?" Some day, we may have ten thousand unemployed developers instead of tens of thousands? Please clearly enumerate the "negative side effects" you expect. Until you can give these and logically defend them, I will state your position has no merit at all.
Rich
Jim Baker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 10, 2002
Posts: 177
Rich:
I think you should vote, so should I in the
Nov election.
JiaPei Jen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 19, 2000
Posts: 1309
What if none of the candidates running for the Nov. election in my district cares about the H1-B policy? I do not know for whom I should cast my vote.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
It wouldn't make a difference anyway. You can't out vote senior citizens. You're just pissing in the wind.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
"flying jordan",
Welcome to JavaRanch.
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Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by Jim Baker:
Rich:
I think you should vote, so should I in the
Nov election.

Jim,
I always do my best to get out to vote. I hope the US citizens, in this community, get out to vote for the candidate who will help eliminate the H1-B program and promote jobs for US citizens.
Rich
flying jordan
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 02, 2002
Posts: 22
Our country is an immigration country. We are pround of that. I think people who propse sending all non-citizens home is just day dreaming. Being a citizen, I absolutely can't accept Rich's idea of "sending all those non citizens home". I think it is a typical loser's attitude.
The long term negative effect is you are damaging our immigrantion policy which is the fundamental of this country.
Think about this: after 9/11, some people want those Arabs go home, do you think congress will do that ? It is just so simple that immigrantion policy is not something you can change like changing your food menu order. That's it.
Some colleagues in my company came as H1B, now they have gotten permanent resident status. By law they can permanently reside in this country forever. By law they will become citizens 5 years later. Rich, no matter how angry you are, you just can't kick them out.
I certainly believe it is a short vision to ruin the fundamentals of our immigration policy just because of the H1B.
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
They picked up on this in the UK:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2222212.stm
Let's hope someone comes to their senses here soon.


www.websiteandsound.com
"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten."
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by flying jordan:
Our country is an immigration country. We are pround of that. I think people who propse sending all non-citizens home is just day dreaming. Being a citizen, I absolutely can't accept Rich's idea of "sending all those non citizens home". I think it is a typical loser's attitude.
The long term negative effect is you are damaging our immigrantion policy which is the fundamental of this country.
Think about this: after 9/11, some people want those Arabs go home, do you think congress will do that ? It is just so simple that immigrantion policy is not something you can change like changing your food menu order. That's it.
Some colleagues in my company came as H1B, now they have gotten permanent resident status. By law they can permanently reside in this country forever. By law they will become citizens 5 years later. Rich, no matter how angry you are, you just can't kick them out.
I certainly believe it is a short vision to ruin the fundamentals of our immigration policy just because of the H1B.

flying jordan,
I found you "loser" statement very offensive. However, coming from an obvious liberal, I would not expect you to argue the point. You just resort to name calling; it is a typical liberal tool. I should state it more clearly. The H1-B workers were never meant to be "immigrants." They were supposed to be temporary workers to meet a perceived need. Hence, since they are no longer needed, they should be sent home. You simply fail to understand this basic concept. Come on, it is not that difficult to grasp! Was that clear enough? What concept do you not grasp?
You stated, "The long term negative effect is you are damaging our immigrantion policy which is the fundamental of this country." In the end, we do not NEED any more immigrants. Back in the "good old days," the country could support the immigrants because we had an agricultural society. Now, that we are in the modern era, we simply cannot do it. I guess you fail to see the difference between the economy of the early 1800's and today. We have way too many "foreigners" syphoning resources from our country. We have to pay to educate the children of the illegal immigrants. Some people come here, become citizens and go on welfare. Given the state of the econmy, this makes things even worse.
In the end, the vast majority of the Americans would like to see the individuals who are not citizens simply go home. I'm sure if you mentioned the H1-B issue to any red blooded American, they would want to send them home. Of course, there are some liberals, like you, who believe we should just let these people become citizens. Myself, I'm too logical. If the country cannot support the current population, how can it support more?

Rich
[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
There is a fundamental point that keeps getting missed here:
The H1-B program has rules. If recruiters/employers followed these rules, it would not be such an issue.
The fact is, the program is being abused, and the rules that exist to protect American workers are being broken. When you break the rules of a game, you get kicked off the team. When most of the players routinely break the rules, the game is no fun anymore.
When there are so many jobs to go around that everybody can make a buck and have a good life, fine. But right now, there is an enormous pool of talented Americans who face becoming destitute. Abolishing/Reforming this program is a way for workers to address their crisis. You know, just like when businesses lobbied for the program when there really was a skills shortage.
Remember, Americans have been feeding these businesses and economy with their incomes and taxes their whole lives. The American workers have fed and nurtured the economy. But when times are tough for businesses, it's a punch in the face that these same companies we feed profits to are not returning the favor.
I consider myself liberal...but to think that supporting H1-B's is liberal is a joke. The only winners are the big corporations.
Paul Villangca
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 04, 2002
Posts: 133
...The only winners are the big corporations.

That's precisely why the program's still around. And they have the money/power to keep it that way, too. Your friendly neighborhood politicos can sacrifice a few votes just to get more cash in their campaign coffers. The way things are right now, there will always be a 'skill shortage' and there will always be a need for H-1Bs.
About the proposed solution (found in the very first post), will writing letters make a difference in this situation? Has there been any success?
mike zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2002
Posts: 59
I happened to see this thread and I feel I want to say a few words:
1. I cam eto this country several years ago as a graduate student, then I graudated with MS degree in CS major. Four years ago I started working in IT company and at that time I started using H1B visa. What I want to tell you is: Some of you don't understand this point --- H1B visa holder can change his/her status to permanent resident. It is 100% legally supported by law. There are several ways to obtain permanent residence: The most common way is employment based petition. This law has been practiced for many many many years. And there is another law saying once you are permanent resident, you can apply for citizen in 5 years. I guess that's why "flying jordan" saw his colleagues became citizens. They are all laws.
2. I don't understand why people claim H1B people get underpaid ? I am making fairly good salary, I don't want to give the number, but I know my salary is at top 25% of my team, 80% of team members are citizen developers. somebody said some H1B is paid at $7/hour ? I think that's the tip I paid to waiter in dinner.
3. The law requires a company to recruit for 10 days for a position and "among applicants" if that foreigner is the best candidate then he/she can be selected. So, it doesn't mean there is no better or equivalent citizens for that position country-wide. It all depends on the applicants for that position. For my position, I knew they interview four or five people totally, but I am sure I was the best. I am confident. That's why even I don't get involved in those American office politics, gossips, I get steady promotion based on my performance.
3. Don't think we H1B visa holders are stupid to take those underpaid wages. We don't.
4. We H1B visa holder have made much contribution to this country's economy. It is radiculous to let a H1B person go home even he/she is working on that position , just because some "patriots" want to make some rooms for citizen. Come on, you REALLY think this will work ?? I think the company will immediately be sued for discrimination. Oh, you want congress to force a nation-wide firing H1B people ? Well, if you are really as naive as that, I even don't want to comment on it... The fact will teach you...
5. I understand there is always a group of such citizens who blame on other non-citizens, fortunately most Americans are not like that. From my observation, usually this small group of people are narrow-minded, be jealous of other immigrant's success, they don't know they should work hard to contribute. I know some of such citizens. they don't study hard, they don't work hard, they just want to claim benefit using their citizen tag. When they find they can't find a job, they blaim others.
Richard Brokways
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 48
Originally posted by Paul Villangca:

That's precisely why the program's still around. And they have the money/power to keep it that way, too. Your friendly neighborhood politicos can sacrifice a few votes just to get more cash in their campaign coffers. The way things are right now, there will always be a 'skill shortage' and there will always be a need for H-1Bs.
About the proposed solution (found in the very first post), will writing letters make a difference in this situation? Has there been any success?

Paul,
Writing your Congressmen is just an outward statement of how you feel. It may or may not make any impact at all. These "parasites" have their own agenda to gain money and power. They rely on the indifference of the vast majority of the citizens. It is a really good plan.
The real "mission" is to raise awareness. The vast majority of Americans has absolutely no clue as to what is going on here. The most helpful thing one can do is talk to your friends, relatives and coworkers about this.
I have an acquaintance that went to a "town meeting" held by his Congressman. When he spoke on this issue, he said he heard gasps when he stated his case. He said the Congressman came back with the usual "fluff." Of course, since he had researched this extensively, he came back with the facts and figures. In the end, the Congressman looked like an idiot. This was a "success." This is what we need many more people to do.
Rich
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: H1-B activism or hope things get better?