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disturbing ( to me )

Tony Alicea
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    5
So that's why they call capitalism "legalized crime"?
I feel very strongly that the need for profit should not surpass the protection of the nationals' income.
Of all the countries of the world we can do both.
I resent the outsourcing of programming jobs outside of the USA because I am a programmer.
And I want my government to stop it. Or others may have to do it for them.


Tony Alicea
Senior Java Web Application Developer, SCPJ2, SCWCD
Mapraputa Is
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Speaking only for myself, I am referring to "nations that are able to provide labor at a price that for various social and economic reasons cannot be competed with by Western Europe, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, Israel, Canada, and the United States" (my apologies to any nations I have omitted who are also unable to compete with the wages from these countries. :roll: )


From what I understand, Russia's education system rivals anything in the West.
Um... Not really. Perhaps there was stronger accent on "rivalry" during Communistic era for propagandistic reasons, (besides normal nation-centricity) but not beyond limits. When I was in college I do not remember anybody particularly cared where this or that theorema came from. And now there are even less reasons for "rivalry" and more for "integration", where do you think our best graduates end up, ah?
You must be confused by Shura's shamelsess self-promotion
Should we rename this thread "disturbing (to all)"?
Jim Yingst
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Ummm, "rival" doesn't necessarily imply a strong competetive feeling. As used here, it's more like "is close to or possibly equal to". I could have two piles of rocks and say that the size of the first pile rivals that of the second. It doesn't imply any competetive feelings on the part of the rocks - they are rather ambivalent about the matter.
[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Mark Fletcher
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Joined: Dec 08, 2001
Posts: 897
Originally posted by Jason Menard:

I'm sure. Your current form of government has been around since 1911, if I'm not mistaken. And technically, the United Kingdom has only been around since 1707.

True, true. The UK has been around for less than 300 years. And it wasnt until the 20th Century that we recognised the rights of female voters.
At the same time the US government was formed in what, 1776? And the government did not recognise the rights of citizens of a significant ethnicity to vote until 1870 with Amendment XV to the constitution?
Originally posted by Jason Menard:

And teaching the same curriculum the entire time no doubt.

I suggest sir you never set foot in St Andrews and utter those words.
*Sigh* In the end I was only trying to point out that if we're going to get into a "my country is better than yours" type argument its ultimately futile. No disrepect to the US, I find it to be quite a nice place and its inhabitants often more friendly than my own.
In the end the root cause of the original problem posed by the creator of this thread is that simply by market forces cheaper labour can be found abroad where work can be done of similar quality.
As Michael Ernest pointed out, my interpretation is that its important to constantly learn new skills to keep on top of the job market.
Thanks and apologies if Ive offended anyone.
Mark
[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Fletcher ]

Mark Fletcher - http://www.markfletcher.org/blog
I had some Java certs, but they're too old now...
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Ummm, "rival" doesn't necessarily imply a strong competetive feeling. As used here, it's more like "is at close or possibly equal to".
I need to throw out my dictionary! "compete" and "opponent" was the only meaning it gives! That's how "Soviet-American" official relationships were spoiled, I am sure!
Jim Yingst
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Understandable. I fixed a typo in my original, BTW, but of course I'll leave your quote of it intact.
Jim Yingst
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its important to constantly learn new skills to keep on top of the job market.

Agreed. Of course it's helpful if you can figure out beforehand which skills will be most useful to you as the market changes. And it's nice if it's something at least somewhat related to your current skill set and interests, but sometimes you've just got to bite the bullet and make a major transition.
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Why, me and Shura can simply go home. You all are doomed, true.
Shura Balaganov
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Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
You must be confused by Shura's shamelsess self-promotion


Well, forgive me, darling... Since you've been mostly promoting Michael and Mark, and my name doesn't start with M...
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:Why, me and Shura can simply go home. You all are doomed, true.

Yeah, home. Right. Where is it? Do immigrants even have home? Isn't it ironic that we came here looking for jobs, and jobs are moving back to where we came from?

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:Should we rename this thread "disturbing (to all)"?

And justice for all....

Interesting point, some people really lost faith in programming. Mark especially went far. I'd be a little causious to preature end of the world as we know it. Because were would Deloitte, PriceWaterhouseCoopers, Cap Gemini Ernst&Young, KPMG, Accenture, EDS and CSC would go - disappear? I wonder, if that happens within next 3-4 years, whether this stock market ever recovers?
Jason, please don't make it a personal vendetta
Shura
[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]

Any posted remarks that may or may not seem offensive, intrusive or politically incorrect are not truly so.
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Jason Menard
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Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Mark Fletcher:
*Sigh* In the end I was only trying to point out that if we're going to get into a "my country is better than yours" type argument its ultimately futile. No disrepect to the US, I find it to be quite a nice place and its inhabitants often more friendly than my own.

True true. I was actually (unsuccessfully) trying to avoid the same thing. I just couldn't help the smart ass comment.
In the end the root cause of the original problem posed by the creator of this thread is that simply by market forces cheaper labour can be found abroad where work can be done of similar quality.

I don't disagree with you at all. Maybe a better question would be if a global labor market is in anyone's interest. Labor isn't exactly like any other form of commodity. Before anyone cries about us employing cheap Asian labor to make our clothes for us, I am against that too. I am willing to pay a higher price for our products and believe a nation's businesses need to employ its own people, regardless of the nation.
As Michael Ernest pointed out, my interpretation is that its important to constantly learn new skills to keep on top of the job market.

Absolutely. While we don't have to like the current situation and can do our best to change it, we still must play with the hand we've been dealt. And that means doing what you need to in order to remain marketable and employed.
apologies if Ive offended anyone.

Not me certainly.
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
Jason, please don't make it a personal vendetta

No personal vendetta at all. Actually I enjoy your posts. I appreciate your points of view, particularly because they are rarely my own. It would be a very boring if it weren't for different view points. I just happen to enjoy spirited debate, and you just happen to often post debate worthy comments.
Mapraputa Is
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wassup folks? why are you all getting mushy??
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
Well, forgive me, darling... Since you've been mostly promoting Michael and Mark, and my name doesn't start with M...

Me? Promoting Michael and Mark?
I misquote and misinterpret them, mock, malignity, mercilessly manipulate, make them mad, in short, mistreat, you can call it "promote" if you like, but...
Yeah, home. Right. Where is it? Do immigrants even have home? Isn't it ironic that we came here looking for jobs, and jobs are moving back to where we came from?
It was black humor. Sad sarcasm, as you would say.
Randall Twede
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Joined: Oct 21, 2000
Posts: 4340
    
    2

sorry, couldnt read all the posts...just wanted to say that intel is laying off 7000 not 4000 (according to the Oregonian) which is really great news for me since i live here in the greater portland area and am looking for a job for the summer


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Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
I misquote and misinterpret them, mock, malignity, mercilessly manipulate, make them mad, in short, mistreat

Marvelously mischievious, Map.
Anthony Villanueva
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Joined: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1055
What a difference a day makes...

Well, since I plainly stated that "there's no way to compete with the third world", I thought I was being clear that the issue is that there is no way Americans can possibly compete with those kinds of prices.

No argument there. The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.

As for the thinly veiled misguided attempt to infer that my motives may be racial...

Sheesh... so much for text. I never used the R word, and I'm not going to argue on your interpretation of my interpretation of what you said. This being MD, everything is meant to be said in half-ironic jest.
Thanks for the link. I finally figured out what you meant by "scab", right after 4. "Slang. A person regarded as contemptible.". Of course the fact that the word had negative connatations was incidental and irrelevant to your use of the term, as well as *third world*. Of course you couldn't have meant otherwise.
Shura Balaganov
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Posts: 664
Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Marvelously mischievious, Map.

Or, how some would say, озорная
(translation: mischievous, with some sarcastically-joyful and a grain of "adult" context)
Shura
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Before anyone cries about us employing cheap Asian labor to make our clothes for us, I am against that too. I am willing to pay a higher price for our products and believe a nation's businesses need to employ its own people, regardless of the nation.
A pair of Nikes made in Vietnam will cost you $100. My Converse All-Stars made right here in the USA cost me $30.


Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
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Pradip Bhat
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Originally posted by Randall Twede:
sorry, couldnt read all the posts...just wanted to say that intel is laying off 7000 not 4000 (according to the Oregonian)

Intel seems to hire in India that means they have not suffered any loss .
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=12775
There are many pronlems related to outsourcing such as communication gap/time difference etc.
But mainly success of project depends on project type,quality of people and methodology.


Yeshwantpur
Karl Laird
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Posts: 67
Of all the (many) comments in this (potentially )highly charged forum to pick from I'll still have to pick the 'clear case for a union' as the main culprit
You would prefer that any country that is set worse on the economic scale to the US be denied the opportunity to participate in the global economy? The fact that another country has workers willing to do a job for less than what you are does not make them a candidate for blacklisting - in fact it typically highlights the requirement for them to get more work!
(And I hate to disappoint another earlier poster NZ is perfectly able to compete with these prices - even though we prefer to fleece you mercilessly when your willing to pay us US rates )


The Eagle sneers at the Peacock<p>Systems Administrator<br />OrderWare Solutions Ltd<br /><a href="http://www.orderware.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.orderware.net</a>
Mark Herschberg
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Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Michael Ernest:

The idea is right, but NAFTA hardly seems the culprit where IT is concerned.

I never claimed NAFTA had anything to do with this. I'm not seeing many software jobs being outsourced to Canada and Mexico. Merely that we are not the first group to face an issue like this.

--Mark
[Map was right. My ISP was bouncing more then a check from Congress. After the 3rd time trying to post in a couple forums, I started getting confused with all the windows. Thanks for pointing that out.]
[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Herschberg ]
Mark Herschberg
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Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
So that's why they call capitalism "legalized crime"?
I feel very strongly that the need for profit should not surpass the protection of the nationals' income.
Of all the countries of the world we can do both.
I resent the outsourcing of programming jobs outside of the USA because I am a programmer.
And I want my government to stop it. Or others may have to do it for them.


Warning: economic debate forthcoming
Why do you feel this way? The preimise of capitalism is to let "the best man win." Now there should be some protections for the following reasons...
1) National security--we can't rely only on overseas programs, what if we go to war and dont have access? A more generalized form of this arguement would apply to any situation where stability, such as economic stability, is needed, even if not a direct and immediate threat to the safty of the nation.
2) We cannot compete with outright "slave labor," i.e. when other comapnies don't have to play by the same rules about working conditions (sweat shops) or environmental impact, they have an advantage, and we should be protected by that.
Aside from that, it's open season, in my book.
Tony, I'm curious, do you only buy "Made in America" clothes? cars? food? household appliances? If not, there are some union reps who would like to have a word with you. :-)

--Mark
Tony Alicea
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That's OK. I erroneously thought you were in favor of sourcing out our national defense systems and other critical systems. Thanks for clarifying that.
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Mark, isn't your last-1 post a response to this thread?
Pradip Bhat
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No country from Developed/second/third world will compromise on Defence Systems to be outsourced bcos of obivious reasons.
'Every programmer who works outside western world works in sweatshop and works 14 hrs a day and is a slave' is a myth.
http://www.maharashtraitparks.com/itparks.htm
Anonymous
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Posts: 18944
Hi,
After reading this thread FULLY, all I can see from the developed country people replys is "U R GREEDY and SELFISH"
Now i understand why world war I & II occurred
Warm Rgds
XYZ from developing country
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Karl Laird:
You would prefer that any country that is set worse on the economic scale to the US be denied the opportunity to participate in the global economy? The fact that another country has workers willing to do a job for less than what you are does not make them a candidate for blacklisting - in fact it typically highlights the requirement for them to get more work!

I am not talking about blacklisting "countries". It is long standing union tradition that they exert pressure on companies who choose not to play ball with them. That is part of the leverage that having a strong union gives you.
Let me give a hypothetical example... In much of the northeast US, grocery stores are union shops. Everyone from the bag boy, to the cashier, to the butcher, is a member of the union. Let's say that you as the owner of a brand new grocery store decided that you wanted to keep the union out of your new store because you didn't want to pay the higher wages they mandate. So you go ahead and hire scabs instead of union members. Not long after that, you find that you cannot arrange deliveries of goods to your store? Why? Because the people who drive the trucks are members of a sympathetic union and your store has been blacklisted.
That example is simplistic and not completely realistic, but I'm just trying ot get the concept across. It is this same kind of pressure that could potentially be brought to bare, if we had a strong IT union, against employers who choose to not deal with that union.
As far as prefering countries on a worse economic scale than the US being "denied the opportunity to participate in the global economy"... No, I do not believe in giving away our jobs to other countries.
Labor is not the type of commodity that can be traded on a global market. Living conditions, economies, and labor laws in the different countries make this impossible. Global markets only work where there is relatively equal competition. Labor does not fall into that category.
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by <XYZ>:
Hi,
After reading this thread FULLY, all I can see from the developed country people replys is "U R GREEDY and SELFISH"
Now i understand why world war I & II occurred
Warm Rgds
XYZ from developing country

Mr Anonymous,
You are absolutley correct. We are selfish and greedy for not wanting to give you our jobs. How terribly self-centered of us to want to earn a living and to keep those jobs in their country of origin. How dare we not just give everything to you so that you can enjoy a better life at our expense. Hell we're just one great big world welfare program anyway, we should always be putting your needs ahead of our own. We certainly wouldn't want to make you let go of the nipple and gain some self-sufficiency. :roll:
Alex Ayzin
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Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

So why don't I care? Writing code will be moving overseas. I don't write code; I design and implament software. --Mark

That's enough, at this point I couldn't care less about political correctness. [Maybe not, but personal attacks are unacceptable here, and have been deleted. - Jim] So what that you're doing design and implementation; don't you think that next wave of cheap labot will be educated and experienced enough to replace you or DBAs or project managers or Business analysts. It's a desease, it's spreading fast and it gotta be stopped. Outsoursing is a hoax, the only reason for that is for management to temporary cut costs (IT dept is always the best target), replace domestic labor with cheap overseas one and show profit. Stock prices will go up, shareholders are happy and management get fat bonuses. It'll stop in a couple of years, I'm sure when the economy is better, but for now we can all agree that's unfortunatelly the case. Now, if you're OK with that system it's bad. From reading your posts you sound like a sophisticated fella and got to understand all of the consequences. What if tomorrow yo'd get a pink slip, start making phone calls about your next position and hiring managers with certain accent will tell you that you're not exactly type that they hire here. And who is that type? You perfectly well know how, at least that's a situation here in New York. What would you do in those cases. Don't give me: 'I'll go home, re-evaluate what went wrong, hit the book and be better prepared for the next interview". Because next Interview gonna be exactly the same. Some guy named Habib will take a look at your resume, pick an area you least familiar with and there you go. You could re-evaluate what went wrong again, but it would be better if you as hiring manager would stop hiring those guys all together and rethink your current position on this issue for your own sake and for the rest of us, for all of us who's got loans, morgages and car leases.
[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Alex Ayzin ]
[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
2) We cannot compete with outright "slave labor," i.e. when other comapnies don't have to play by the same rules about working conditions (sweat shops) or environmental impact, they have an advantage, and we should be protected by that.
Which is just about every third world country. Does India have strict laws to protect the environment? Does China allow workers the freedom to unionize? We should only be competing against free democracies where workers have the right to fight for a piece of the pie. American workers should not be forced to give up their hard fought rights simply because the Chinese government arrests anyone who dares to question why the factory is dumping poisonous chemicals into a river or why workers should be forced to work for long hours with little pay. If the US is going to force American businesses to protect the environment and pay minimum wages then the US needs to protect the American worker from foreign nations that don't provide these protections to their citizens.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by rahul rege:
But mainly success of project depends on project type,quality of people and methodology.
The point is no one cares about quality anymore. All they care about is reducing expenses. Intel made more money this year than last but it still wasn't enough. They laid off workers, not because the workers weren't doing a good, qulaity jobs or because the company was losing money but because they wanted more short term gains.
Michael Ernest
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It's not that corporations don't think of quality merely as a marketing buzzword or could care less whether they have it. It's that "quality" seems to mean something different to them. The sense I have of "corporate quality" is far closer to "consistency" than "excellence."
If the way a corporation goes about its business is consistent, they can document it. If they can document it, they can reproduce it. If they can reproduce it, they can rely on it. If they can rely on it, they can move on to other challenges.
Or that's how I hear them using the term.
Shura Balaganov
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Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Mark, they finally got you out of your comfortable Jobs forum into wild MD, for good!
Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Labor is not the type of commodity that can be traded on a global market. Living conditions, economies, and labor laws in the different countries make this impossible. Global markets only work where there is relatively equal competition. Labor does not fall into that category.

Somehow I feel I might agree on this, adding people in power to the list. Obviously, when we talk about Global Economy™, our understanding of it sounds more like "US corporations doing business worldwide with local businessman and political groups really happy that we came and rescued them from oblivion", which is mostly not the case. Most of the times Global Economy™ meets serious resistance by those in local power (unless, of course, they get paid off, which I assume is often the case). In which case I see a real reason for World Bank, IMF and US floodding "third world" countries with "unimportant papers" called US dollars
As most big and medium consulting firms already have shops in ICR (Map's equivalent for India, China, Russia), they long ago realised what can and can't be outsorced. Otherwise, we would only see small offices of these companies left here. Fortunately (for us) there's a sworm of middle managers, that can only do one thing: manage people. And these guys have some "political" power and need jobs. Ironically, I think they will be our most furious advocate against moving IT (and other "thinking") jobs overseas...
Michael, another opinion on corporate "quality" can be found in The Cluetrain Manifesto
Shura
[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
Mark Herschberg
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Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Which is just about every third world country. Does India have strict laws to protect the environment? Does China allow workers the freedom to unionize? We should only be competing against free democracies where workers have the right to fight for a piece of the pie. American workers should not be forced to give up their hard fought rights simply because the Chinese government arrests anyone who dares to question why the factory is dumping poisonous chemicals into a river or why workers should be forced to work for long hours with little pay.

Well, here is where the details get tricky. Perhaps I feel the Chinese system is just. I think they have a right to surpress people who question them, because I don't think the freedom of speech derives from natural rights. So I don't think that is sufficent justification for a trade barrier. Of course, if they dump millions of tons of CO2 intot he air, maybe I think that is a good reason. All I'm saying is that I think we agree in principle, we just seem to disagree on where to draw the lines.

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The point is no one cares about quality anymore. All they care about is reducing expenses.

I disagree with the first statement, and very much agree with the latter. There was a well received book, "Quality is Free" published in the 80's about how higher quality reduces costs. Certainly the airlines learned this long ago--while safty costs may more then double the cost of producing aircraft, the value of safe travel more then pays for itself.

Originally posted by Alex Ayzin:

That's enough, at this point I couldn't care less about political correctness. [Maybe not, but personal attacks are unacceptable here, and have been deleted. - Jim] So what that you're doing design and implementation; don't you think that next wave of cheap labot will be educated and experienced enough to replace you or DBAs or project managers or Business analysts. It's a desease, it's spreading fast and it gotta be stopped.


Thank you Jim :-)
I think the next wave of cheap labor will be experienced enough to replace me. I say kudos to them. I support people and societies who work to better themselves.
By then, I will have moved on. You can claim that's not possible, I claim otherwise. I graduated with degrees in CS. I started as a programmer. Subsquently I have also done project management and process design--neither of that was covered in any class I ever took in school. Now I'm writing a book. Who knows what I'll be doing 5 years from now, let alone 10.
As a programmer, I'm sure you know technology is constantly changing. You need to constantly keep abreast of new technologies and adopt to them. The same is true in the business world. 1000 years aog, all business was done locally. 500 years ago, trade routes began. 100 years ago, trade between countries was commonplace. Today goods can be shipped within days. Modern CRM systems are only beginning to allow a level of personalization impossible just 50 years ago. Who knows how tiny the world will be tomorrow? Who knows what business tomorrow will look like? Just as technology changes, so will business. You need to be prepared to change with it.
The luddites opposed technological change over 100 years ago, fearing the looms would put them out of work. Today we still have plenty of people in the textile indsutry. Improved technology and business spractices will replace rote tasks (yes, putting up a simple e-commerce site will eventually be wrote, with some tools today, it's pretty close to it already). Money isn't made by doing rote tasks, it's made by solving complex problems which are in demand. As things change, complex tasks become simplified and new challenges arise.
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
Mark, they finally got you out of your comfortable Jobs forum into wild MD, for good! :p

Don't worry, I'm running back there shortly. I popped in just because this seems interesting (it's pretty much a Job Discussion topic to begin with), but frankly, the personal attacks, and hostility in this forum are a big turnoff. I'm sorry this topic wasn't posted in Job Discussion, where we have more decorum. (With all do respect to Jim, who does a great job at a difficult task. :-)

--Mark
[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Herschberg ]
Michael Ernest
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Originally posted by Alex Ayzin:

Outsoursing is a hoax, the only reason for that is for management to temporary cut costs (IT dept is always the best target), replace domestic labor with cheap overseas one and show profit. Stock prices will go up, shareholders are happy and management get fat bonuses. It'll stop in a couple of years, I'm sure when the economy is better, but for now we can all agree that's unfortunatelly the case. Now, if you're OK with that system it's bad. ...it would be better if you as hiring manager would stop hiring those guys all together and rethink your current position on this issue for your own sake and for the rest of us, for all of us who's got loans, morgages and car leases.

A couple of points for those long on opinions and short on facts:
1) People who contract their skills have loans, mortages, and car leases, too.
2) Which happy shareholders and fat management bonuses are we talking about these days? *Hiring* a contractor is cheaper and easier. No benefits, you can pay them when you feel like it, and dealing with issues such as federal withholding, workman's compensation, etc., etc., become someone else's problem. It's that simple.
3) Outsourcing is hardly a hoax. It's an effective method with a long history. The current practice of outsourcing overseas is a trend, and it will find its limits -- eventually.
4) Market trends typically don't respond to moral outrage; real or affected. They respond to ways to make money. I have disagreed elsewhere with the idea that "greed is good" is acceptable capitalistic thinking. It is, nonetheless, prevalent. I would also argue that it springs as much from tunnel-vision and ignorance as it does from gleeful malevolence.
5) If you want to shake your head at some IT manager who chooses to pay $600 instead of $3000 to get a job done, ask yourself as well if you would gladly pay 5x times more for an American car over a foreign-made vehicle, all other things being equal. Would you ask the US government to prevent other countries from "undermining" the local economy by offering cheaper goods of equal quality to us? If so, what set of balls are you going to use to accuse China and other countries of protectionism?
Anthony Villanueva
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Posts: 1055

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Friday, July 19, 2002
JDJ Industry News

Java Skills Shortage Set for 50% by 2003
by JDJ-IN News Desk
(July 19, 2002) - Less than 50% of the job market demand for efficient Java developers will be satisfied by 2003, according to the Gartner Group, indicating that the demand for Java developers is much higher than the actual availability.
One of the main reasons for this is that developers experience an initial decreased level of productivity when migrating from other languages such as COBOL and RAD/4GL to Java. The leap, in many cases, is just too demanding. "Due to the steep learning curve, less than 50% of the job market demand for efficient Java developers will be satisfied by 2003," says Gartner. (Continued...)

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Anthony Villanueva ]
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
I agree with Michael on this one.
Most people who say that outsourcing is a failure, are short on facts. Or maybe, they think that if they say it many times, people will start to believe them.
IBM and other companies have been outsoucing work for more than 20 years now.They would have stopped it if it had not worked for them.
Another thing they keep saying is that only coding jobs go to India.
Here is a clip
"Vinod Dham, a microchip expert who once headed Intel's Pentium processor project, on Thursday launched a venture fund firm to nurse startups aimed at making India a key center for the wholesale design of chips. The fund would invest $50 million in three to five five companies, which would be incorporated in the U.S., but have 90 percent of their staff in India.
But Dham said the ventures his fund would nurse would go further, and take charge of the conceptualisation, complete design, development and testing in India, outsource fabrication to firms in China and Taiwan, and sell the end products to a wide variety of customers.
"
Read the whole article here
http://www.siliconindia.com/shownewsdata.asp?newscat=Technology&newsno=15940
Alex Ayzin
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Joined: Apr 10, 2001
Posts: 107
Originally posted by Michael Ernest:

A couple of points for those long on opinions and short on facts:
1) People who contract their skills have loans, mortages, and car leases, too.

What the heck are you talking about? I didn't raise the question of contractor vs. employee, being the contractor for the last 9 years I kind of know what's it like. i was talking about oversees labor, so-called H1B people taking our jobs, not employee positions, not contractors position, but position of those, who was born and educated in the US, with all the loans that we still have to pay, etc... People from India, China can afford to be paid $600/month, I can't. Even though I made a jump down from $90/hour last year to $40/hour this years, but it's hard watching decent jobs with multiple requirements go away for a fraction of the cost. Senior Architect - $27,000, developer on VC++ with MFC and J2EE - $11/hour. Is it normal? These are real cases that I saw here in NYC.
Shura Balaganov
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Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
I've met people from Germany who've been working for IBM for more than a quarter of a century! And if you drive around Bavaria, i.e. Munich and Stuttgard, you'd be surprised at the amount of Mersedeses and IBM offices. IBM now has big group in Czech Republic, as well as all over former Soviet Union states. And recently I've spotted all 5 of Big 5 consulting firms in Moscow... Speaking of witch, Ford has car factory around there, as well as it used to around Minsk, Belarus. Just some more facts...
So what if jobs move overseas. Some of us will tighten our belts and move on to other jobs. That's capitalism, babe. Services and finance seem to never go away...
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
American workers should not be forced to give up their hard fought rights simply because the Chinese government arrests anyone who dares to question why the factory is dumping poisonous chemicals into a river or why workers should be forced to work for long hours with little pay.


Um, American worker's rights? Is that in constitution or something? The more rights workers have, the more it looks like socialism...well, actually, simbiose (is there such word? =combination). I don't think our talk about it will change things much, maybe make some people notice the train and change course...
I'm off to NYC, where Alex is still pissed about missing out on his $90/hr contract job...Dude, still driving Maxima, or moved up to Mersedes/BMW/Lexus, huh?
Shura
[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
Jim Yingst
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Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Anthony, that JDJ article is extremely suspect. If you read the full thing, it looks like it's really a press release for OptimalJ from Compuware, that JDJ mistook for news (or was paid to represent as such). And the alleged Gartner study seems to predate 2001 - see this article for a similar Gartner quote from Jan 2001. And try to find a recent article at www.gartner.com which might say anything like this. (Tough I suppose without paying for the full text.) :roll: I think the original report has been taken far out of its proper context, intentionally or otherwise.
[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
Anthony Villanueva
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Joined: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1055
Thanks Jim.
<Deflating sound: pffffffffttttt..........>
Anyway, emotional rhetoric aside it seems clear that outside competion exists and is something to seriously consider

Mark Fletcher:
You cant gripe at market forces for exploiting the cheaper labour, and these people are highly skilled, or at the very least have the thirst to better themselves.
It seems to me that we (Im a UK citizen by birth) in the first world have no qualms about capitalism and market forces when it benefits us, but as soon as the tables are turned its "Hey no fair!".
Michael Ernest:
Market trends typically don't respond to moral outrage; real or affected. They respond to ways to make money. I have disagreed elsewhere with the idea that "greed is good" is acceptable capitalistic thinking. It is, nonetheless, prevalent. I would also argue that it springs as much from tunnel-vision and ignorance as it does from gleeful malevolence.

The real issue is, IMHO, is whether the government should do something about it or not:

Jason Menard:
The bottom line is that it may soon be time for the government to step in and put a stop to this sickening trend. These businesses are flourishing and able to reap in huge profits very much because of the fact that they are operating in this country. As such they have a responsibility to this country outside of simply paying taxes, and that includes using domestic resources whenever possible. Since most politicians are in the pocket of these corporations, it will be up to the workers to organize themselves and force the government to listen, and force the corporations into compliance.
Michael Ernest:
Would you ask the US government to prevent other countries from "undermining" the local economy by offering cheaper goods of equal quality to us? If so, what set of balls are you going to use to accuse China and other countries of protectionism?
 
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subject: disturbing ( to me )
 
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