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SUN favoring Indians!!

Bhushan Jawle
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Joined: Nov 22, 2001
Posts: 249
No that is not true :-) I didn't go to IIT, nor did I go to Cornell, in real world its not all 1's and 0's :-) but it is true, I have even heard of cases where people couldn't get into IIT for a bachelor's degree and have got masters from MIT.
There are so many people who never have attempted to enter into IIT for some personal reason, doesn't necessarily mean they are not smart.
BTW, I am from those 99,000 or so mentioned in the mail before.
Now pls. don't conclude from this that I am smart or dumb :-)
J. Yan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 14, 2002
Posts: 34
Originally posted by San Tiruvan:

In the very same show where they interviewed Vinod Khosla, there was another interview with an IIT professor. He was mentioning about IIT standards and told that his son took the entrance exam but could not make it into the IITs...so where is he studying right now .....CORNELL UNIVERSITY....which I think is one of America's Flagship universities....
Hope it answers your question.

I believe this situation happens to almost every country. As far as I know, a lot of Chinese students who didn't get admitted to the best Chinese universities Beijing (like Harvard in US) and Tshinghua (like MIT in US) got their PhD from top US universities, and many of them became faculties at those top US universities either.
Why do I always only see Indians (no any people from any other countries) brag about it
Derek Grey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 204
So you are trying to say that all people that don't make it into IIT go to Cornell?

....no sir, I never meant that. But I can definetely say that many of them who don't make it into the IITs are very much capable of getting into terrific universities like Cornell, UIUC (which is now nicknamed as "University of India University of China ...due to the large number of students from those countries), etc
Also, there definetely are a good amount of brilliant and hardworking engineers being produced in India.
I believe in judging every professional individually rather than generalizing them based on their region etc.
Why do I always only see Indians (no any people from any other countries) brag about it

Firstly, do you have any substantial evidence to support this remark?
Secondly, do you realize you are targeting a particular group of people?
Anyways, my defense is: Because 99.99% of Indians who study abroad are damn good at
1. speaking in English (I am speaking of the Language not the Accent)
2. socializing.
John Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Posts: 2545
Originally posted by J. Yan:
Why do I always only see Indians (no any people from any other countries) brag about it

I think one of the reasons why India is more frequently mentioned here is because many software development outsource to India right now.
Chris Mathews
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2001
Posts: 2712
Originally posted by San Tiruvan:
I believe in judging every professional individually rather than generalizing them based on their region etc.

Yet, by your previous statement, you insinuate exactly this type of generalization...
San Su
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 06, 2001
Posts: 313
Originally posted by Chris Mathews:
Originally posted by San Tiruvan:
I believe in judging every professional individually rather than generalizing them based on their region etc.

Yet, by your previous statement, you insinuate exactly this type of generalization...

1. AFAIK, he didn't generalize anyone based on the region
2. He said IITians are best among the best in India, it is not a generalization, but it is a simple fact.
Chris Mathews
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2001
Posts: 2712
Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
He said IITians are best among the best in India, it is not a generalization, but it is a simple fact.

He was commenting that "most" people that are not accepted into IIT can get into top US Universities, such as Cornell in his example. It is this generalization that I am sure does not hold true. In particular, the use of the word "most".
Newsflash:
I've met poor developers from all over the world...
[ March 20, 2003: Message edited by: Chris Mathews ]
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

I feel this is better suited to Jobs Discussion, so I'm going to move it.


Make visible what, without you, might perhaps never have been seen.
- Robert Bresson
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Hello,
First things first - People who complain against SUN's indiscriminate hiring of H-1B software proffessionals (chiefly of Indian citizenship) have a valid point but do they overlook the fact that SUN was co-founded by an Indian, Vinod Khosla? This is NOT to state that all Indians will turn into mega Venture capitalists one day but a few do and eliminating a program that encourages entrepreneurship will only harm the chances of that happening.
Secondly, I am an Indian who is working in the United States on a similar visa program and every time I read such dissent amongst Americans I wonder if I should really stay in this country when people over here dont have jobs. I even went as far as throwing in the towel in, and informing my employer of my wishes to return back to India. He (an American white male) advised me against it and I agreed with him then but now after reading this discussion.. I wonder!
I hold no animosity against Americans, Chinese, Indians, black , white.. basically anyone. But I cant understand why Mr.Thomas Paul and Mr.Rufus harbor such extreme hatred towards foreign IT workers. I wonder if they will change their opinions if every H-1B left US but still they had to compete for their jobs with the basically anyone else who is a US citizen. I'm pretty sure they will then start a ruckus about something else then!
For people who are a little unaware of how a global economy works, let me give you a simple but excellent example.
When China opened up its economy to Foreign trade in the 90s, Japan was the first to seize the oppurtunity. Japan ordered millions of toothpicks made with precious Chinese bamboo at the rate of $1 for every 1000 toothpicks. Sure it generated a lot of money for the Chinese and they were nonethless delighted with the trade. But little did they realize that as soon as these toothpicks reached Japan, they were being turned into pencils and shipped back to China at $1 a pencil. So what is the story here.. Japan didnt have raw materials, so they imported mass from China. Turned them into finished goods and sent them back.
What relation does this bear on H-1Bs?
US needs cheap software for its businesses and yes! Indian labor is cheaper when compared to American labor costs but the end result is that Windows XP is more affordable, less piracy occurs. More people buy software from an American company, more money moves into America which in turn translates into new jobs for Americans.
Look! if an American really needs a job today he or she can get no matter how many Non-americans they have to compete against. I have personally helped 4 americans get jobs through my contacts (I also volunteer to teach English at the local literacy center). But there have been 10 other Americans who refused the job because it didnt pay exactly what they expected or because relocation expenses werent covered etc.. If you really need a job you have to do something / sacrifice something for it. If not the first person who does will get it!
How many of you people really care how much of the automobiles you drive is all American? The name may be Buick but everything from the Hood to the wheel is made in Mexico. I dont like it! but the net result is Buick is cheaper than Mercedes which is made with all American labor in Alabama. And more people buy a Buick.
I guess someone will be able to point out flaws in my argument, I do not support mass immigration to the United States but some amount of it is needed because..
Would you prefer more IT jobs in the US but at a cheaper rate than the booming 90s or would you prefer no IT jobs in the US and everything outsourced to another nation because labor costs here are just too expensive. I Love USA, but there is no room for hate (even for Rufus and Thomas) in my heart!


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Derek Grey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 204
He was commenting that "most" people that are not accepted into IIT can get into top US Universities, such as Cornell in his example. It is this generalization that I am sure does not hold true. In particular, the use of the word "most".
Newsflash:
I've met poor developers from all over the world...


I know that use of the word "most" seems surprising to you....but trust me I have been in that country for 23 years....it is true. In case you wonder why we are still a IIIrd world country if we have such briliant people, we are getting there people...we are...it's been only 55 years since we kicked our British Arses out of our country and in that period we definetely have grown in leaps and bounds.
BTW ... sorry to know that you've met so many poor developers...cheer up...there are plenty good ones too.
Derek Grey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 204
hey Sriraj,
Well said....I liked the examples (buick vs benz & the Chinese toothpicks)...it explains it all....it all sums up to the "Survival of the fittest".
Derek Grey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 204
He was commenting that "most" people that are not accepted into IIT can get into top US Universities, such as Cornell in his example. It is this generalization that I am sure does not hold true. In particular, the use of the word "most".
Newsflash:
I've met poor developers from all over the world...

Sorry for the typo's ... here's the same in a better way.

I know that use of the word "most" seems surprising to you....but trust me I have been in that country for 23 years....it is true. In case you wonder why we are still a IIIrd world country if we have such briliant people, we are getting there people...we are...it's been only 55 years since we kicked British Arses out of our country and in this 55 year period we definetely have grown in leaps and bounds.
BTW ... sorry to know that you've met so many poor developers...cheer up...there are plenty good ones too.
John Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Posts: 2545
Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:
When China opened up its economy to Foreign trade in the 90s, Japan was the first to seize the oppurtunity. Japan ordered millions of toothpicks made with precious Chinese bamboo at the rate of $1 for every 1000 toothpicks. Sure it generated a lot of money for the Chinese and they were nonethless delighted with the trade. But little did they realize that as soon as these toothpicks reached Japan, they were being turned into pencils and shipped back to China at $1 a pencil. So what is the story here.. Japan didnt have raw materials, so they imported mass from China. Turned them into finished goods and sent them back.

May I ask where you get this wonderful story?
Thanks.
SJ Adnams
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 925
move this back to MD please.
J. Yan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 14, 2002
Posts: 34
Originally posted by Don Liu:

May I ask where you get this wonderful story?
Thanks.

From their world famous mouths, I guess. LOL.
J. Yan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 14, 2002
Posts: 34
Originally posted by San Tiruvan:

Anyways, my defense is: Because 99.99% of Indians who study abroad are damn good at
1. speaking in English (I am speaking of the Language not the Accent)


it's been only 55 years since we kicked British Arses out of our country

Very confusing. I first thought you owed Britain a lot for their teaching you to speak English, which you seem to be very proud of.
[ March 21, 2003: Message edited by: J. Yan ]
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
I do not hate any H1-Bs.
It is only a matter of time before today's H1-Bs start to face age discrimination. You will sing a new song then.
The IEEE says unemployment of high tech workers in the US is at all-time high and climbing. Every American that wants a job is not getting one.
Sacrafice. I read the CEO at SBC had compensation cut 70% the other day. He is only going to make $19,000,000 this year. I guess SBC needs to import more cheap H1-Bs so he can get back up where he belongs.
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2002
Posts: 177
I find it really stupid to argue over whether IITian are smart or not and comparnig them with other countries.
Every country has smart people. How do you define smartness? Number crunching? Common Sense? Civic Sense? Aggregation of all these?
I believe, it's the collective intelligence of the nationals that is important. Individual integiligence, in itself, doesn't really matter. By this parameter, I feel Americans are the smartest. Had we been that smart, we wouldn't have been screwed royally by the British. Forget about the British, our politicians, our own people are screwing our country. Talk about smartness :roll:
BTW, I think a bug fuss is being made out of Vinod Khosla's comment. Come on, it was an IIT alumni meet, he was just complementing them.
And who wouldn't prefer an MIT grad to some local community college grad? If I have to select one of two resumes, I would pick the MIT one. It is the same situation with IIT. That's all he was talking about.


I'm just saying...it's right there!
Jane Somerfield
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 20, 2002
Posts: 193
Originally posted by Bhushan Jawle:
No that is not true :-) I didn't go to IIT, nor did I go to Cornell, in real world its not all 1's and 0's :-) but it is true, I have even heard of cases where people couldn't get into IIT for a bachelor's degree and have got masters from MIT.
There are so many people who never have attempted to enter into IIT for some personal reason, doesn't necessarily mean they are not smart.
BTW, I am from those 99,000 or so mentioned in the mail before.
Now pls. don't conclude from this that I am smart or dumb :-)

I knew personally a gradudte form IIT in the physics department of one of
the top US public universities
during 80's. She
failed the qulifier exam for three times so she
had to go to a less famous university. She
got her Ph.D. there and went back to IIT to
become a professor.
I see the issue in IT is not the quality but
the cost. They are cheaper (yes, even from IIT), and never sue the emplyers because of the
contract they signed.
Chris Mathews
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 18, 2001
Posts: 2712
Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
By this parameter, I feel Americans are the smartest.

Have you ever watched Jerry Springer?
bryce johnson
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 21, 2003
Posts: 13
How do you make a pencil out of a toothpick? Who is stupid enough to buy a toothpick pencil for 1$?
Derek Grey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 204
Very confusing. I first thought you owed Britain a lot for their teaching you to speak English, which you seem to be very proud of.
____________________________________

ok...firstly they (The Brits) didn't teach us English...we had to learn it....by whatever means for whatever reason...that's too big and complicated to discuss here.
Secondly, if you still feel we owe them...consider 200+ years of tyranny and loss of freedom in exchange for spreading English into the vast country of India. Do your math, logic...whatever...
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by bryce johnson:
How do you make a pencil out of a toothpick? Who is stupid enough to buy a toothpick pencil for 1$?


Bryce, ofcourse no one bought a toothpick pencil! The Japanese didnt have enough wood to make pencils, so they imported Chinese bamboo as toothpicks which gave them the raw material in a well processed form.
Don, this story was given to me by a Chinese colleague at work. She and I were having a discussion about the Chinese economy in recent years.
Finally! San, please stop replying to every post.
Jian Yan
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 22, 2003
Posts: 1
Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:


Bryce, ofcourse no one bought a toothpick pencil! The Japanese didnt have enough wood to make pencils, so they imported Chinese bamboo as toothpicks which gave them the raw material in a well processed form.
Don, this story was given to me by a Chinese colleague at work. She and I were having a discussion about the Chinese economy in recent years.
Finally! San, please stop replying to every post.

You know why Don and I immediately questioned the reliabilities of your made-up story (sorry if the word �made-up� hurts you), because we know China and Chinese much better than you, and we can easily find the flaws.
1.)China started economic reform in as early as 1978, and opened its foreign trade in 1982, NOT the 90s in your story.
2.) Bamboo is NOT equal to wood. Pencil made from bamboo? Never heard! Maybe that�s the Indian way.
3.)Pencil is NOT high tech (maybe considered as high tech in India). It�s already widely used in China at my father�s generation. When I went to element school in the late 70s, the pencil products I could choose might be more than what you have now in India. Actually those stationary products were the key products that China exported during the early 80s. Go find your so-called �Chinese co-worker�, and asked her whether she used pencils before those Japanese stuff came.
4.)To make your story sound more �reasonable�, in case that you want to post this story later at some other places, you should change the �toothpick� to �chopstick�. See, you get a free tip from me
5.)Did your �Chinese co-worker� really discuss Chinese economic or any other serious topics with you? Haha. As an average Chinese myself, I do know how much chance it could be
You must not be the bright guy from IIT, just seeing how you did in such a short story and hope that�s not the way you code. To sell a story, try to make it as perfect as possible at the first place, and no excuses and bugs afterwards. The same rule applies to code.
Here is a �story� one of my �India colleagues� just �told� me:
10 years later, i.e 2003, Japanese found India�s economic development level was very close to China�s in the early 90s (there are various resources available for this). They went to India and paid $1 for every 1000 elephant tusks, and then made elephant chopsticks and tried to sell them back at $1.00/pair. But they found Indians didn�t use chopsticks (actually they didn�t use any tools) to eat and $1.00/pair chopstick was still too expensive to most Indian consumers. So, they sold those elephant chopsticks to China instead. Chinese are very happy since $1.00/pair elephant chopstick is really a good deal, so are Japanese and Indians because they made money anyway.
prakash alluri
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 6
Hi You,
1.) China started economic reform in as early as 1978, and opened its foreign trade in 1982, NOT the 90s in your story.
Can you tell me Date and Time of that please ?
2.) Bamboo is NOT equal to wood. Pencil made from bamboo? Never heard! Maybe that’s the Indian way.
Do you really know from what wood is pencil made-up of ?
---
---
--

I mean to say you, what he said is the general idea....to make others to understand easily and clearly. But not with the intention to make chinene feel bad.
He was just giving an example of trade. But you understand his(that Indian) words are exactly the opposite.
------------------------------------
because we know China and Chinese much better than you, and we can easily find the flaws.
------------------------------------
Okay now I accept that. Really I dont say Chinese, particularly you are really better than Chinese. Because, in order to make your opinion correct, you are representing entire China.
Does it really make you feel good.
India is the country where I born. I love India. America is the country where I work and gave me better life. I love America.
I love China, because they have a great culture and society.
I request you (and all here), in the name of any personal opinion dont blame entire country.
I think I am not hurting any one...Indian, American, Chinese.......
If I hurt you......consider me as cheap labour....I apologize for that...
John Lee
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Posts: 2545
Originally posted by prakash alluri:
[QB][/QB]


Look, nobody would like to waste time to argue with you.
"When did China start economic reform?" none of your business.
....
"I think I am not hurting any one" well, you can try.
All you want to say is "SUN favoring Indians", so what? everybody lost java job to indian? Is that all you want to say?
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
Originally posted by Don Liu:

Look, nobody would like to waste time to argue with you.

How did you draw this wonderful conclusion?
You must not be the 'bright'guy from Tshinghua/Beijing.


"When did China start economic reform?" none of your business.

This shows you don't like out of box thinking.

All you want to say is "SUN favoring Indians", so what? everybody lost java job to indian? Is that all you want to say?

Things are still not understood by your gray cells Don.


MH
Pakka Desi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 11, 2002
Posts: 177
I don't want to add fuel to fire but ...I can't resist it now
Given a choice between India or China, I would prefer India for all my lives.
I called ourselves (Indians) dumb because we couldn't get rid of the british for 200+ years.
However, I call Chinese dumber because even with thier own rule, people do not have freedom to talk. No matter how much military power China has, it is a place where terror rules...speak againt the ruling party and your are done for life. There is no free media!!! What's more, even internet is blocked/patroled.
Don, I don't want to critisize china or its people because I belive everywhere there are good and bad points. I am posting this because you are so adament on proving that India is inferior to China. So I just want to let you know that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones on others.
Peace.
Mark Herschberg
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Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
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stephen Kang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 26, 2002
Posts: 53
Chris mattew,
Is it you from UIUC ECE?
let me know whether it's the one who i know or someone else.


Stephen Kang
Steven Marco
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 23, 2002
Posts: 21
IIT is way over-rated.
During the last 6 year IIT students failed to make into top ten in the ACM international programming competition.
"Average" India programmer may be better than most countries but when it comes to "elite", Russia, China and USA still tops.
Results from 2003:
The 26th Annual ACM-ICPC World Finals sponsored by IBM
Sixty-four teams of students advancing from 3,082 teams representing over 1,300 universities in 67 countries on six continents competed for bragging rights and prizes at the World Finals of The 26th Annual ACM International Collegiate Programming Contest sponsored by IBM which was held on March 23, 2002, in Honolulu, Hawaii.

Top 10

1 Warsaw University, POLAND
2 Moscow State University, RUSSIA
3 St Petersburg Institute of Fine Mechanics and Optics, RUSSIA
4 Comenius University, SLOVAKIA
5 Tsinghua University, CHINA
6 Shanghai JiaoTong University, CHINA
7 Saratov State University, RUSSIA
8 Zhongshan University, CHINA
9 Taras Schevchenko Kiev National University, UKRAINE
43 Indian Institute of Technology Bombay


Results from 2002:
Top 10
1 Shanghai JiaoTong University, CHINA
2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology, USA
3 University of Waterloo, CANADA
4 Tsinghua University, CHINA
5 Stanford University, USA
6 Saratov State University, RUSSIA
7 Fudan University, CHINA
8 Duke University, USA
9 Moscow State University, RUSSIA
10 Universidad de Buenos Aires, ARGENTINA

[ May 26, 2003: Message edited by: Bluga ]
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
I doubt how these competitions represent the overall programmer's community from a particular country/region.China is today at the top,if for the next 3/4 years they fail to compete upto this level,Does it mean Chinese programmers were elite,now they are not?Problems posed in these type of competitions are highly theoretical/mathematical nature and results reflect student's problem solving ability.Cracking problems in IMO or ACM type competition requires that type of environment,well planned preparation in advance and good guidance and ofcourse intelligence.
Michael Yuan
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 07, 2002
Posts: 1427
In fact, most american university's admission standard is painfully low. I was a TA in a big state university for sometime and some students in my class (a science class) could not figure out 1% = 0.01 without using a calculator ...
Anyway, the point is: many high school graduates from China or India can easily make it in to top American universities if they are allowed to compete in SAT.
However, what sets american students apart is the high quality education they receive in universities. I do not know about India. But in China, once you are in college (after surviving 12 years of brutal selection since you were 6), you are safe. There is no incentive to study anymore. On the other hand, in the US, college students have to study to graduate. It is my observation that at the graduate school level, the differences between American students and foreign students have been reduced to zero.
I also want to piont out that the success of the American higher education system is largely due to the hard work of many foreign professors and graduate students. Immigration is what makes this country strong.
I do not like companies "outsourcing" to cheap foreign labors which produce low quality products. But I am all for companies to import top talent into this counrty.
Contrary to what Bush wants you to believe, it is the talented people not the tax cut (which will be invested in China anyway) that will create new jobs for all of us.

Originally posted by Chris Mathews:
Originally posted by San Tiruvan:
So you want to know what kind of level are the other 99,000 engineers....hmm...I can't talk about all of them but I sure can talk about MOST of them.....here's something for you...
In the very same show where they interviewed Vinod Khosla, there was another interview with an IIT professor. He was mentioning about IIT standards and told that his son took the entrance exam but could not make it into the IITs...so where is he studying right now .....CORNELL UNIVERSITY....which I think is one of America's Flagship universities....

So you are trying to say that all people that don't make it into IIT go to Cornell?
[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: Chris Mathews ]


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Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
{
I do not like companies "outsourcing" to cheap foreign labors which produce low quality products. But I am all for companies to import top talent into this counrty.
}
Cheap labor need not necessary produce low quality products.CEO takes the highest salary in a company that does not mean (s)he is working at highest level of efficiency.
Now about your importing the 'top' talent,given a selection choice,out of 100 people , how will find out who are the top talent?By their degrees/cetificcates? or their experience? or number of medals won until graduation?
SJ Adnams
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 925
i hate to repeat myself, but this thread is MD fodder.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
"Bluga",
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Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Simon,
This is a discussion on hiring practices, universities, and the global hiring market. It seems very much a Job Discussion topic, to me.
--Mark
SJ Adnams
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 925
ok, your the boss
Sam Walker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 06, 2002
Posts: 65
Going back to Sun being sued ...
I am glad Sun is being sued, I do hope they loose where they hurt the most, like Microsoft did.
Sara Jahan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 20, 2003
Posts: 120
Originally posted by Sam Walker:
Going back to Sun being sued ...
I am glad Sun is being sued, I do hope they loose where they hurt the most, like Microsoft did.

Can you send me the link of the Microsoft story. I didn't know Microsoft had lost any such suits!My search did not result in any fruitful result.
/Sara
 
It is sorta covered in the JavaRanch Style Guide.
 
subject: SUN favoring Indians!!
 
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