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Read this?

Randall Twede
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Joined: Oct 21, 2000
Posts: 4347
    
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I can live without software but I must have clothes. I would not like to run around naked.

obviously you have never tried it


SCJP
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Kevin Arnold
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Joined: Apr 30, 2003
Posts: 30
Some kind of exploitation is inevitable. When the supply of labor exceeds demand the capitalist will exploit the worker. When demand exceeds supply the worker will exploit the capitalist. If the government removes the surplus from the labor market we will be in a position to exploit the capitalist. People! have a thought for the starving tycoon.
Mark Ju
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Joined: May 20, 2003
Posts: 117
Converse was just bought by Nike right?
I'm not sure you can judge whether one is a patriot or racist by their brand of clothing. Toyota has factories in the US and Chrysler/Daimler has plants in Germany.
Buying Nike doesn't mean you support sweat shops and buying diamonds doesn't mean you condone trading blood (slavery) diamonds.
Richard Hawkes
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Joined: Jan 28, 2003
Posts: 1340
Please help me find a job in America. I require only 4 hours sleep daily and I'll stay in a shoe box under the desk. You can pay me in peanuts and computer games. If you scratch me behind the ears I purr, and I hibernate during recessions.
Thanks
Richard Hawkes
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Joined: Jan 28, 2003
Posts: 1340
I went through about fifteen pairs of Converse during my "yoof", before moving on to Vans. Now I'm a Diesel fan. Italian I think. Ho hum.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
Please help me find a job in America. I require only 4 hours sleep daily and I'll stay in a shoe box under the desk. You can pay me in peanuts and computer games. If you scratch me behind the ears I purr, and I hibernate during recessions.
Thanks

are you serious? you can do much beter than that! Working in McDonald's give you ~$7 per hour plus benefit (including free meal and drink i suppose).
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
And how do you compete with someone willing to accept a standard of living one fourth of yours? Do you just tell your wife to forget about the house, and tell your kids that college is out of the question? Do you tell them that the American Dream is dead because corporations want to replace Dad with cheap labor from a developing country?
How do you compete with that? Be willing to work for $15/hour? Or exit the IT field completely and look for something that can actually pay the mortgage?
[/QB]

If your goals include owning your own home and financing higher education for your children, then you do whatever it takes, Joe. If your goal is to stay in your current profession regardless, then you do that.
The American Dream may buy houses in Shaker Heights, but it also sends half its money back to family in Bangalore. Those people opening the floodgates for visas are just as American as you and me.


Make visible what, without you, might perhaps never have been seen.
- Robert Bresson
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
And how do you compete with someone willing to accept a standard of living one fourth of yours? Do you just tell your wife to forget about the house, and tell your kids that college is out of the question? Do you tell them that the American Dream is dead because corporations want to replace Dad with cheap labor from a developing country?
How do you compete with that? Be willing to work for $15/hour? Or exit the IT field completely and look for something that can actually pay the mortgage?

I believe the definition of "american dream" is changing, but even today, in some part of america, a 50-acre lot may only cost ~200k. if you have a job in that area, you are well afford it. so sometimes one step back, you will find many things otherwise escaping you. regarding children's education, sending them to college is only part of the picture. spending quality time on them may prove even better.
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
They get paid much less, and so contribute much less.
Then one must "demand" that everyone should be paid equal amount. Then we will above nationality and in true sense global.
Then an local will never think that he is being replaced by someone cheaper.

The issue is that more and more Americans are saying that they don't want foreign workers on American soil doing American jobs.....
Oh... if this is the case then push your Govt to come with such policy.

The issue is that more and more Americans are saying that they don't want foreign workers on American soil doing American jobs while qualified Americans are out of work.
I think it comes down again to the basic money matter.
But I wonder why no one is intrested in paying a foreigner worker the same pay what a local gets. ??
If employer has to pay same amount as a local gets for the same job, then heck it will be the only well qualified persons who will get the job. It wont be outsider, it will be the person who is qualified & deserve the job.
AW there are always more than one way to do any task. It depends one what chooses.


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
They get paid much less, and so contribute much less. Also, there has been a significant push by the biggest Indian visa abusers to rescind the social security tax, thereby reducing our social security pool as well.
I think while posting any message, like, one should 'avoid' using word YOU, keeping the same sprit we should 'not' take nation name, atleast when one's opinion is derogatory.
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
1) Remove the IT sector from the list of jobs that the H1-B visa applies to.
Why not doctors, nurses, scientists, teachers, etc. also ??
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
I am willing to give back to America what it has given me. My total asset worth is about $10 000. Divide this by the number of american citizens. If the result is $0.000000001 sense, then have the local mint made coins with such denominations and distribute these to the people.
Better still, wait for the second coming of the messiah and carry out this phenomenon when the messiah is performing a miracle of multiplying money......Oops! what!? what did I say this time?!
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by R K Singh:

A decade ago there was a similar debate. A company I worked at brought in an Indian sys admin team at less than half the cost as their existing team. I'm afraid my perception was that the Indians were also less than half as competent. Senior SE's (like myself) were obliged to solve problems which the previous SA team had handled before, with resulting impact to development schedules. Heavy impact.
I beg to differ, I think, it was the problem of that company's "Human Resource Recruiting" department which could not recruit the correct person. [The SA, you are talking about could have been a US citizen also and could have given shocks too.]

I was there, you were not R K. The company made a deal with Tata Consulting to supply 7 system administrators for less than half the price that they had been paying the contractors who were doing it at the time.
Prior to the changeover, I had merely to send an email to the SA group to get something done and done correctly. Afterwards it became much more difficult. I would have to do the research on what needed to be done then go to the SA lab and make sure it was done correctly. Or figure out a way to do it myself.
This has nothing to do with Indian versus non-Indian. Tata supplied inexperienced people, I think....
Originally posted by R K Singh:
With the massive recent expansion of the major Indian outsourcing companies, I expect many less qualified staff have been hired recently. This is going to have a negative impact on the quality of their product.
I think recruiting process is tough enough here to get the best of all applications.
And if you read the whole blog and the links given there. I think, that left Sue and the people who agree with her speechless.
Why only blame to outsourcing ?? Outsorcing is like, you are in open market and you are looking for best value for your money. Anyone who will provide best value for your money, you will buy that product only.
Can we blame outsourcing for unemployement in manufacturing units also ??
In my simple thought, outsourcing is nothing but a getting best at cheapest cost.
And now there is competetion also very high with entry of Russia, China and other south asian countries too.
The job done in US @ $4000/-
same job in India is $700/-
and in China it is $500/-
And regarding quality of work, in this competetive age, no company will repeat order/project if the end product lacks quality.

And I'm pointing out that the jobs done aren't necessarily the same thing. Another point I'm making is that the Indian labor market is not an inexhaustable pool of Java talent, and that the Indian outsourcing companies are reputed to be expanding their staff very quickly. As with the dot.com boom, this means that many underqualified people will have been hired. Again, this has nothing to do with Indian versus non-indian, but only with the nature of labor markets and hiring booms.


SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by Tintin Herge:

Well, I have seen many Americans and Britsh people who are half as competent than me and maybe double my price. I dont see what your point is ? There are competent and non-competent people all around. If the companies who hire them , dont take a thorough interview before taking them in, they deserve what they get. I have seen both instances in my previous projects. I have worked for a Bank which had a very tough Interview process and all the people working in the project (including a few Indians on a work permit ) were VERY GOOD and everyone knew what they were doing. On the other hand, I have worked in a Telco which took an interview from contractors as just a formality and they trusted the Suppliers totally who screwed them by sending people who sometimes had no clue abt the software in question.
Point is , If you have seen a few H1Bs who were not very competent , I have seen many locals who are the same. You cant blame them or the H1 process. The blame has to lie with the companies who recruit them without making sure that they fit the role.
My 2 Pence.
This is a pretty touchy topic and I am sure this has been discussed on this board sometime ago.
Tintin

Tintin, I'm not sure I get your point. My comments were mostly about what I expect to happen to the offshoring industry, with a decade-old anecdote about some replacements I'd seen thrown in. As a rule the Indians who are hired on H1B after attending graduate school in the US are pretty high-quality. Those who get their green cards are usually above the average.
I wrote that the H1B and green card programs are an asset to the US and should not be eliminated. I think allowing the yearly limit to fall back to 65,000 will allow more US-based programmers (whether citizen or green card) to be employed, so that is a good thing. But I don't advocate repealing the program.
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
Tata supplied inexperienced people, I think....

Dont you think, your company, where you were and I was not, should have taken interview before choosing SA from XYZ company.
I have clearly said that "it was the problem of that company's "Human Resource Recruiting" department which could not recruit the correct person. "
Another point I'm making is that the Indian labor market is not an inexhaustable pool of Java talent,
Very true. Talent is independent of anything.
and that the Indian outsourcing companies are reputed to be expanding their staff very quickly.
Sorry, I beg to differ, recruitment atleast now a big process of clearing written to test to atleast 3-4 rounds of interview.
Yes, 3 yrs back I can agree, any Tom, Dick or harry will do some computer course and would start dreaming of good job.
But now, even in my home 2 friends are job-less from last 1 and half year[they were working and now their company is either closed or on cost cutting] and I know they are good enough to get a job but when you have a label of 'laid-off', its difficult, atleast in India.
Anonymous
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Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944

Originally posted by R K Singh:

The job done in US @ $4000/-
same job in India is $700/-
and in China it is $500/-


Can I ask where do you get this information?
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by R K Singh:
Then one must "demand" that everyone should be paid equal amount. Then we will above nationality and in true sense global. Then an local will never think that he is being replaced by someone cheaper.

That is what the law says but that isn't what is happening. H1-B's are supposed to be paid the "prevailing" rate but they aren't. They are paid what they will take which is a lot less than the prevailing rate.


Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
That is what the law says but that isn't what is happening. H1-B's are supposed to be paid the "prevailing" rate but they aren't. They are paid what they will take which is a lot less than the prevailing rate.

If this is the case then, IMHO, people should demand for law enforcement units to come in to action [I am sure, US must be having something like Public Interest Litigation] rather than demanding to abolish H-/L- visa or restricting it to some specific areas.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by <chinese programmer>:
Can I ask where do you get this information?

I dont remember exactly, I think it must be one of these sources Times of India/Finance Time/Deccan Herald OR on net.
But I read it very recently, I mean with in last 2-3 weeks.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Originally posted by R K Singh:

I dont remember exactly, I think it must be one of these sources Times of India/Finance Time/Deccan Herald OR on net.
But I read it very recently, I mean with in last 2-3 weeks.

it is hard for me to believe this data is unbiased.
but if you read it within last 2~3 weeks, then i am sure you can still find it now.
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1874
Originally posted by <chinese programmer>:

it is hard for me to believe this data is unbiased.
but if you read it within last 2~3 weeks, then i am sure you can still find it now.

ItsHERE


MH
SJ Adnams
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 925
it is hard for me to believe this data is unbiased.
but if you read it within last 2~3 weeks, then i am sure you can still find it now.

{childish rhetoric deleted}
google : $4000 india china job $500 : im feeling lucky
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_31/b3844132_mz033.htm
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]
SJ Adnams
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 925
>Capablanca Kepler haha beat you
Al Newman
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Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by R K Singh:

Dont you think, your company, where you were and I was not, should have taken interview before choosing SA from XYZ company.
I have clearly said that "it was the problem of that company's "Human Resource Recruiting" department which could not recruit the correct person. "
Another point I'm making is that the Indian labor market is not an inexhaustable pool of Java talent,
Very true. Talent is independent of anything.
and that the Indian outsourcing companies are reputed to be expanding their staff very quickly.
Sorry, I beg to differ, recruitment atleast now a big process of clearing written to test to atleast 3-4 rounds of interview.
Yes, 3 yrs back I can agree, any Tom, Dick or harry will do some computer course and would start dreaming of good job.
But now, even in my home 2 friends are job-less from last 1 and half year[they were working and now their company is either closed or on cost cutting] and I know they are good enough to get a job but when you have a label of 'laid-off', its difficult, atleast in India.

Not my company, I was a contractor myself. But I doubt HR (or anyone else) interviewed the Tata SA's. I have no idea what the contract language was, but essentially they could have replaced the SA team with graduates and something very similar would have happened.
What I suspect happened is that either the contract specified a number of bodies without specifying experience levels, or Tata hired on the cheap rather than paying the price for the best people.
Amit Agrawal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 23, 2001
Posts: 282


Off shoring is just as inevitable, so it makes more sense to work with what is coming than to shake your fist at the tidal wave.


That's the truth. Whenever a cost effective solution appears, somebody gets affected and most obviously the ones who were earlier doing the same job at a higher cost.
Tell me who would like to buy a PC at $2000 so that makers of that PC will live happily? that too just because it is made at onshore?
Patriot, may be. But when it comes to buying something most of people look for the best but cost effective solution. Especially an organization that has to compete globally. Lowering the cost of production is the demand of current time and irrespective whatever might be popular sentiments off-shoring is now a proven solution.
As long as H1-B/L1 is concerned, yes I support the fact that when the purpose of starting them is over, there is no point in carrying on but I am sure that off shoring is here to stay.


You can all piss and moan about "your" jobs being taken from you, or you can figure out how to compete. Simple as that.


Correct.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Originally posted by Simon Lee:

google : $4000 india china job $500 : im feeling lucky
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_31/b3844132_mz033.htm

this is what i find out:
BearingPoint pays $500 a month for engineers in Shanghai. In India, he says, the pay would be $700, and $4,000 in the U.S.

obviously, BearingPoint's policy only represents BearingPoint.
SJ Adnams
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 925
it's not BearingPoint (aka KPMG) 'policy'. It is what it has found to be the 'market rate'.
The relationship between a developer salary in KPMG office london to <name of company here>will be highly correlated to the developer salary in KPMG shanghai and <name of company here>>
KPMG developer salary would be ~35K UKP in london I would imagine ($50k)
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Simon Lee ]
Anju Sharma
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 04, 2003
Posts: 2
There are pros & cons of everything. Same is true for outsourcing. Everybody wants to earn fast bucks. Nobody should be having any problem in it. If other company is paying more than what one can earn in one's country, then why not switching? It's not that person's fault. One is capable and that's why one was selected. So, instead of going towards the darker side, let's all take it positively.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Originally posted by Simon Lee:
It is what it has found to be the 'market rate'.

there are a couple questions here:
1) market rate is not the same within the US, i am pretty sure market rate are not the same for all indian cities.
2) to fairly compare two market rates, the responsibility have to be the same or close, it is pointless to compare market rates between senior and junior engineers, but here it did not mention it;
3) more to come...
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by Simon Lee:
it's not BearingPoint (aka KPMG) 'policy'. It is what it has found to be the 'market rate'.
The relationship between a developer salary in KPMG office london to <name of company here>will be highly correlated to the developer salary in KPMG shanghai and <name of company here>>
KPMG developer salary would be ~35K UKP in london I would imagine ($50k)

Above that, Simon. I worked for them in London until last year. Their range was between �45K and �70K. Before they dumped most of their development staff, that was.
I doubt whether ATOS KPMG Consulting actually directly employs engineers in India or China. They probably use an offshoring company. That was the case when I helped them bid a job last year, at least....
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by <chinese programmer>:
it is hard for me to believe this data is unbiased.

Do your home-work yourself and say thanks to Lee and Kepler.
AW thanks Lee and Kepler
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Originally posted by R K Singh:

Do your home-work yourself and say thanks to Lee and Kepler.
AW thanks Lee and Kepler

homework on what subject? rumor?
SJ Adnams
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 28, 2001
Posts: 925
Above that, Simon. I worked for them in London until last year. Their range was between �45K and �70K. Before they dumped most of their development staff, that was.

Tell me about it. I'm in a top 10 investment bank, 70K yea I wish
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
But I doubt HR (or anyone else) interviewed the Tata SA's....

Then, whose fault is this.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by <chinese programmer>:

homework on what subject? rumor?

The rumour, you like most please feel free to select.
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by R K Singh:

The rumour, you like most please feel free to select.

Good one, Ravish!


[ flickr ]
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
better make sure it is right, before quote anything.
btw, it was repeated incorrectly no less than 10 times this morning..
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
regarding children's education, sending them to college is only part of the picture. spending quality time on them may prove even better.
That's not my point. I spend as much time as I can with my family. This is not about whether or not I can make changes; we all did it during the dot-com crash. It's a matter of perception.
That's the point you all seem to be missing. Those who wish to continue the H- and L- visa policies are perceived as stealing the livelihood of American workers. If you continue to do so (especially with smug platitudes about "global economies" and "inevitability" and "changing your standard of living" and "competing"), do not be surprised if these people HATE you. Passionately and completely. Do not be surprised as America becomes more and more isolationist, and more jingoistic, and more xenophobic.
In short, do not be surprised at what you create by your own sense of entitlement. You will not be welcome here. You think it's bad now? We're just beginning to see the backlash. Wait another year. If things don't get better here, don't be surprised to see more vehement forms of civil (and uncivil) protest.
You want an example, take me. I work my tail off every day. You can see my post times. Whenever I'm at the computer, I'm working. I'm either writing a column or preparing a presentation or writing a book or working on my software. And even then, I can barely afford housing for my family, and my wife has to work while she's pregnant. I don't know if I will be able to afford to buy my daughter a car, much less put her through college.
All of that was achievable by a man in my field 10 years ago who worked a reasonable 50-60 hour week. Now it is not.
And yet, I survive. I work 12-16 hours a day now, seven days a week. And yet you want to reduce my standard of living even more. You think that's fair. And you wonder why there's animosity.
Well, anyway, I'm done here. This grand movement to raise the rest of the world by dragging down America is going to be interesting. My sense is that it is doomed to failure, but that it's going to be a bloody mess in the meantime.
Joe
Steve Wink
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 13, 2002
Posts: 223
Maybe we should look at other industries and how they've coped with globalisation. Here in the UK we don't have any home grown mass car producers. We do do a lot of sports cars and racing cars. If you look at the clothing industry, we no longer have large mills or clothes factories, but we certainly have a fashion industry, people still have jobs. I think in IT, if you want to be a programmer on large scale, commoditised products, you had better brush up on your Hindi or Cantonese. Otherwise, you can work on smaller scale, custom software, software more closely linked to the end users where 5000 miles and 6 time zones would be a problem, work more closely with your customers, such as systems support or business analysis, or move up the value chain, such as design, architecture or strategy. The world is changing - we can't stop that, only decide how to react to it. Incidentally, I bank with a bank that won't outsource jobs abroad because I would rather keep jobs in the UK - thats my choice as a consumer. Maybe there will a growing trend of this sort of consumer behaviour, such as the guy buying Converse trainers.
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by R K Singh:

Then, whose fault is this.

The fault was the managers with the dollar signs floating through their heads. Unfortunately they weren't the ones who paid.
I also don't excuse Tata Consulting who provided an inadequate service by any measure. I suspect they paid for it when the management finally caught up to what had been done.
I bailed out myself at the end of my contract period, about 3 months later. Couldn't take the mismanagement. I ended up in a worse situation but that's a story for another day.
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]
 
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