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Visas and Outsourcing

Arjun Shastry
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Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1871
Good discussion.I have worked some time in CMM level 5 company comparable with Wipro/TCS.Hiring strategy of these companies differs from the rest.With lots of revenue,for one offshore project ,they can hire 2-3 guys extra.These people are freshers.Names of these guys don't appear in project document.During development phase,these guys learn the things.Many freshers in one company do sit on terminals from 9 PM to 4AM to learn and work say IBM main frame.As TT above explained,project manager really screws them in open if they don't perform.Work done varies from company to company .I am yet to find any major CMM company failed to perform.Day by day they are increasing their workforce and growth is in double digits.


MH
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
IMHO, as many others pointed out here, Joe's logic is flawed and the way the article compares a firm�s expertise to what they advertise in totally inaccurate. By mentioning certain facts and leaving the rest to readers� imagination, Joe is misguiding the reader. Also, Joe�s version of "its just what I think, you do your own math" doesn't cover up the fact that the article is just like many other that�s on the net/media, simply taking advantage of the existing 'Americans are in trouble due to foreigners' soft-spot.
I agree its irresponsible to bring in a IT firm into this thread, but let me remind you the IT firms like Wipro or TCS are, unlike many other firms that you and I have worked for, employs many tens of thousands (no exaggerations there) of engineers, distributed into hundreds of teams. The post in question could have been posted by a clueless so called �expert� from Wipro, OR it could be new recruit or by a person with many years of architectural experience in some other area of the technology spectrum, and now trying to learn something new, to help his colleagues with his vast knowledge and experience! Joe seems to be either ignorant of these facts, or have conveniently ignored them as they do not support his point of view. Another interesting fact is, by not mentioning clearly, Joe is also trying to say that every single job Wipro/others bags is by making another 'Expert American worker� jobless, which clearly is not true!
Altogether, an �informative� write up by someone who sees only what he wants to see. Between, yes, you managed to make it controversial this time around, Joe!
[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Ashok Mash ]

[ flickr ]
Ashwini Mehta
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 14
I have not read a more biased and misinformed article in my life. Why take 2 email extracts allegedly written by Wipro employees. If americans are losing jobs to cheaper labour, why dont you jump on the government to change policies, instead of degrading expertise from other countries.
And what makes you think that just because its cheaper its not as good or better? The only reason its cheaper is because of the currency conversion advantage and lower cost of living in India - this in NO WAY indicates lower quality.
I wish I was the CEO of Wipro, I would have definitely sued you silly for this misrepresentation and defamation. In fact I am going to drop them an email as I have loads of extremely talented friends who do work for Wipro.
If you must impose your article onto others, make it informative and not just cheap malicious banter.
[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Ashwini Mehta ]
San Su
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 06, 2001
Posts: 313
Ashwini,
I request you to reconsider the emailing part in your post. It might create problems to the poor fellows who posted the message in the newsgroup. Please consider that. Wipro management can easily find out the persons posted the message. Don't take this article too seriously. You are giving toomuch credit to an article, which it doesn't deserve.
[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
I love this!
Folks, I am going to take a ONE POST break from my holiday schedule to reply to the folks here. I'll reply in more detail when I get back. But let me make this point:
The article is over 3000 words. Of that, only 350 words are on those two emails. I was making a point, and I seem to be hearing nothing to contradict it, that lots of the programmers in these consulting firms are "freshers".

Teri: There are experienced people who have the responsibility to deliver the project. Under them, there are some less experienced people and tons (ok, not 100 but about 3 to 10, depending on project) of freshers.
So, according to this, some 60% or more of the developers on any given project are freshers. This is good information for CEO's to know, and I doubt that the consulting companies advertise this fact.

RK: But you dont know under whom he is working and what is the final code.
No I don't, nor do you, so that's not the point. The point is this: are companies getting what they pay for?
IF this fresher is working on something non-critical AND somebody is checking his code AND he is not being billed for AND he is not on a visa, then I have no problem with the approach.
Can those of you who are complaining say with certainty that this is the case?

Finally, to a couple of the comments:
Ashok: Joe is also trying to say that every single job Wipro/others bags is by making another 'Expert American worker� jobless
Oh bullcrap. I said nothing like this, Ashok. Get over your bad self and re-read the article . I in fact specifically said that it's hard to estimate what number of jobs are being lost to this sort of shop. But I guarantee the number is not zero, either, and in fact is pretty large. The companies that outsource are putting Americans out of work.

Ashwini: If americans are losing jobs to cheaper labour, why dont you jump on the government to change policies, instead of degrading expertise from other countries.
Did you even bother to read the article, Ashwini? The whole article was ABOUT changing government policy. Some 2500+ words was directed at changing government policy. About 350 mentioned a couple of emails. You focus on the 350 and IGNORE the other 2500? And you call ME biased? Look in the mirror, kiddo!

Anyway, I've done what I meant to do. I brought the issue up for review. Many people think I was too harsh on the mailing list questions. Perhaps I was. Time will tell. But I don't apologize - those were real posts from real consultants, and you can draw your own conclusions. And it's good to know how these firms are structured. I'll definitely try to follow up with some of your comments in another column.

Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Oh, by the way, if you want to complain, try going to the discussion group for the article. Simply click here. You may have to register.
Really, I'm not afraid of some criticism, especially of the type I'm hearing here. Much of it is good constructive information.
Joe
[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]
Ashwini Mehta
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 14
Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
Ashwini,
I request you to reconsider the emailing part in your mail. It might create problems to the poor fellows who posted the message in the newsgroup. Please consider that. Wipro management can easily find out the persons posted the message. Don't take this article too seriously. You are giving toomuch credit to an article, which it doesn't deserve.

True Sankar, this article does not deserve a second mention, much less a precious 2 pages on MD
But to put out that stuff about particular companies was such a calculated attempt to make the lesser informed go like "Hey! ALL Indian / foreign comapnies must be shabby - I mean 2 alleged emails from a discussion forum must be a true representation of the overall quality of over a million engineers"
I wont send an email to Wipro (aw shucks! ) but I would really be happy if maybe a Wipro employee (I am sure many visit this forum) would pick it up with their internal management in the US - It is not very good if they allow Pluta types to run around blatantly defaming them, is it?
Besides, whats wrong if someone posts a newbie question on a discussion forum - thats wht they are here for. But how you came to the conclusion Joe that becuase ONE person from a comapny of thousands posts a newbie question, it means that "that lots of the programmers in these consulting firms are 'freshers'" - how did you ever come up with such an *informed* conclusion Joe??? (please note that I am dripping with sarcasm here)
Joe : Did you even bother to read the article, Ashwini? The whole article was ABOUT changing government policy
I asked WHY DEGRADE expertise of other countries... Hallmark behaviour of the insecure is to pull down competition.. tch tch
[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Ashwini Mehta ] :roll:
[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Ashwini Mehta ]
San Su
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 06, 2001
Posts: 313
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Did you even bother to read the article, Ashwini? The whole article was ABOUT changing government policy. Some 2500+ words was directed at changing government policy. About 350 mentioned a couple of emails. You focus on the 350 and IGNORE the other 2500? And you call ME biased? Look in the mirror, kiddo!

Do we(Indians) have a say in US government policies? Hell no... You push US government, blame them for the current mess. No one (non-US persons) can say anything about it (other than whining). That is why most of the people here IGNORED the REMAINING 2500 of your words.
But the 350 words you mentioned about the Indians are going to hurt the Indians because you make a sweeping judgement ("American run newsgroup"... ha I don't have a clue why you stressed on that line) about the Indian programmers in General and Indian corporations in particular. Would you change your statement if I point out some nice Indian posts in this very same forum (the so called "American run forum"). Well, If you do a little search on the web, or in this javaranch you can find tons of newbie americans also. Rest.. I will leave it to your imagination.
Happy Holiday..
[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I love this!
Teri: There are experienced people who have the responsibility to deliver the project. Under them, there are some less experienced people and tons (ok, not 100 but about 3 to 10, depending on project) of freshers.
So, according to this, some 60% or more of the developers on any given project are freshers. This is good information for CEO's to know, and I doubt that the consulting companies advertise this fact.
IF this fresher is working on something non-critical AND somebody is checking his code AND he is not being billed for AND he is not on a visa, then I have no problem with the approach.
Joe

Joe, your are taking comments into isolation or out of context and drawing whatever conclusions you want to draw. This is so typical of many avid debaters here.
Anyway, you did not reply to the first and most important point that I made. Let me repeat it for your convenience: Who wipro puts on a project is NONE of client's business. Client must get his job done. That's all. If wipro delivers bad quality or overruns the budget, that's Wipro's problem. They'll loose out in the long run. This is a risk that a US company is taking for getting its job done at a low cost. That's it. There is nothing more to be read into it. The conclusion that you are drawing by quoting those posts is totaly ridiculous.
On a pratical note, even US companies hire freshers and so this risk is there even if a US company get its job done through another US company.
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
IF this fresher is working on something non-critical AND somebody is checking his code AND he is not being billed for AND he is not on a visa, then I have no problem with the approach.

A fresher on a live project is termed as a "Shadow Resource". He or she is not billable and not advertised to the client. The project's success does not depend on their performance. When I worked as a "Shadow Resource" my job assignments varied from formatting the code to preparing unit test scenarios.
This resource is non-existent as far as all project documentation is concerned. This resource will never get the credit for the work they perform. And finally, a fresher will never be sent onsite, leave alone the fact that he or she will not get a visa. Joe, you seriously need to get your facts right. India is not Saudi Arabia where you dont even have to show up at the consulate to get a visa. The consular officers at American embassies in India are very strict and very rigid. There may have been a time in the late 90s when they were a little lax but not after 2001. You have to show proof of significant work experience in order to be eligible for a visa. Your comments make me doubt if you have ever verified the eligibility criteria for a H1B visa.


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Folks! Please!
The overriding complaint seems to be that I overgeneralized based on a couple of emails and that this really wasn't fair to the overall population of offshore programmers (particularly the Indians, since my examples were Indian companies).
If you think this was such an egregious misstatement, then I invite you to make your opinions known. I've already posted a link for the discussion group on that particular article. Or, simply click here. I encourage opposing views.
If it's indeed the case that I just don't understand how the offshore programming industry works, then this is an opportunity for you to clear that up. All I did was report what I saw, and if my reporting cast an unfair light on the situation, then by all means please set the story straight.
Thanks!
Joe
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Joe,
This is from one of your posts at McPress Online..
I posted a link to this article on a Java site heavily trafficked by a global development community. The response from some folks was, as you might guess, somewhat less than cordial.

Can you please specifically point out which post was less than cordial? There are many people who disagree with you here but I think everyone(except Ashwini) has been polite in responding to your posts.
I dont intend to register myself at McPress Online.. but I will write an article similar to yours and post it here for your reading pleasure.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
((Laughing))
Give it a rest, Paul. I'm not going to fingerpoint at which posts were "somewhat less than cordial". The comment was said in a bantering tone - I'll go back and put a smiley in, just for you
I pointed people here to look at opposing views. That's pretty even handed, so chill out!
Joe
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Folks! Please!
The overriding complaint seems to be that I overgeneralized based on a couple of emails and that this really wasn't fair to the overall population of offshore programmers (particularly the Indians, since my examples were Indian companies).
If you think this was such an egregious misstatement, then I invite you to make your opinions known. I've already posted a link for the discussion group on that particular article. Or, simply click here. I encourage opposing views.
If it's indeed the case that I just don't understand how the offshore programming industry works, then this is an opportunity for you to clear that up. All I did was report what I saw, and if my reporting cast an unfair light on the situation, then by all means please set the story straight.
Thanks!
Joe

No, this isn't about fairness. The inference that you've derived is WRONG. Since you've posted the link to your article here, why don't you post your replies to the points that people have made here, here? Or admit that you want to just generate traffic on website by making controvercial statements.
What do you mean by, "...as you might have guessed..."? Why would anybody guess that the response will not be cordial on a global development community? Because it is frequented by Indians? Could it not because your conclusion is plain wrong??
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
My inferences are not wrong - by your own admission there are inexperienced people working on projects at consulting firms. That's really all I said.
The difference is that you and others here are saying that these "Shadow Resources" are simply learning the ropes and not being billed, and these people simply "format code" or "develop unit test plans". But that's not what we saw in the mailing list posts, so feel free to clear that up.
Also, you insist that it's none of the clients' business who works on the code. I'd be interested to see what happens if you go to a hiring manager and tell him it's none of his business who works on his mission critical software.
I stand by my statements.
Joe
Dan Stephens
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 2
Joe, I applaud your fairness in pointing other people here to see other people's views, but it's interesting that the subject here is nothing like what I thought it'd be from the context of where it was posted and what it said at mcpressonline (where I just came from).
Where it was posted, the main discussion was about outsourcing offshore. From Joe's post, I got the impression that the discussion HERE was about someone saying that it's no one's business whether the person hired is in this country or not.
Hmmmm, I don't think I'll comment on Joe's methods logic or arguing style. I think I'll just go back to mcpressonline and concentrate on asking my dumb questions in the programming forums. I've only got 15 years on my computer platform (and another 5 on it's predesessors) so I still ask newbie questions. Don't think I'll mention the company I work for in case someone wants to write an article.
I will say, everything I've read by Joe in the other forum has always sounded reasonable. Here, for some reason it sounds like he is defending himself a little too vigorously.... Darn, I SAID I wasn't going to comment on that!
I'll shut up now....
-dan
"My programs don't have bugs, they just develop random features."

[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Dan Stephens ]
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
That just goes to show that people can read whatever they want into anything, Dan .
Joe
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
My inferences are not wrong - by your own admission there are inexperienced people working on projects at consulting firms. That's really all I said.
The difference is that you and others here are saying that these "Shadow Resources" are simply learning the ropes and not being billed, and these people simply "format code" or "develop unit test plans". But that's not what we saw in the mailing list posts, so feel free to clear that up.
Also, you insist that it's none of the clients' business who works on the code. I'd be interested to see what happens if you go to a hiring manager and tell him it's none of his business who works on his mission critical software.
I stand by my statements.
Joe

Joe,
You seem to take just what you like out of others posts and argue with that. If you read my post carefully you would note that I also stated "the project's success does not depend on them". These Shadow Resources may post a few questions as they try to learn the ropes of the system but this does not mean that if they fail the project fails.
And lets use your logic.. if the project is dependent on the fresher the project will obviously fail. And the client will be dissatisfied. And company XYZ will lose future contracts from this client. But as you pointed out yourself, contracts with company XYZ are growing, aren't they? So that would mean that there are other people on the project who successfully deliver the project, wouldnt it? Or are you suggesting that the client is turning a blind eye to failed projects and still awarding more business to company XYZ?
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Dan Stephens:
Joe, I applaud your fairness in pointing other people here to see other people's views, but it's interesting that the subject here is nothing like what I thought it'd be from the context of where it was posted and what it said at mcpressonline (where I just came from).


Dan, if you still read this message board, you are more than welcome to post here. The reason I dont feel like registering at mcpressonline is because I know that the majority of people who roam around such sites wouldnt even give a dimes worth of their sense to hear my side of the argument. I fought several such people in vain on the threads of ZDNet.com
After a while, I decided never again to involve myself in any such debate. This thread has been the first one in a long time for me.
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
My inferences are not wrong - by your own admission there are inexperienced people working on projects at consulting firms. That's really all I said.

Yes, that's all your said but that's not all you meant. What I understood from your article is this: US company is not getting its dollars worth because inexperienced people work on their project. Correct me if I understood it wrong.
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

The difference is that you and others here are saying that these "Shadow Resources" are simply learning the ropes and not being billed, and these people simply "format code" or "develop unit test plans". But that's not what we saw in the mailing list posts, so feel free to clear that up.

There is nothing to clear there. You are reading too much into those posts. You tell me, have you always worked exclusively with people who had 5+ years experience? I have not seen any company that has no freshers or inexperienced people. There are special cases, of course. Such as a start up, may be.
So what's wrong if a totally inexperienced person is on the client's project. He is not the only person working on it. In fact, I will say even if he is the only person working on the client's project, thats none of the client's business. At the end of the day, if the job is not done, market forces will determine who survives and who does not.
THIS IS A RISK OF OUTSOURCING. Companies that outsource, take into account such risks.
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

Also, you insist that it's none of the clients' business who works on the code. I'd be interested to see what happens if you go to a hiring manager and tell him it's none of his business who works on his mission critical software.

Who said that it was a mission critical software? If a company outsources its mission critical project, what resources will work on the project will be a part of the deal (read more cost). If it isn't then it is none of client's business who works on the project (read low cost).
I think you are totally aware of this. I know this first hand. On many client projects, the client actually interviews a resource before the resource is put on the project.
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

I stand by my statements.
Joe

Watch out. You'r on quick sand.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Last post on the topic.
I do not think it's right to have newbies with no experience working on any non-trivial part of my system. The emails show they are. That's all I said.
Joe
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Last post on the topic.
I do not think it's right to have newbies with no experience working on any non-trivial part of my system. The emails show they are. That's all I said.
Joe

If it is not right for inexperienced people to work on your project, you can say so in your contract. As simple as that.
There are many reasons why it costs so less if you outsources. This is one of the reasons. If you give more priority to it, then outsourcing is not for you.
Apparantly, not all corporations think you are right because outsourcing is only increasing.
BTW, yes, that's all you said but that's NOT all you meant. Did you?
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Okay, one last comment, since you're asking nicely (and indeed, you've been pretty cordial, despite the obvious heat in the subject).
Yes, that's what I meant. By extension I also meant that I don't think American companies realize that they are getting lots of newbies on their projects. I think this discussion will go a long way to raising awareness on that topic. Many consulting companies are displacing EXPERT American workers, simply because they are cheaper, and it's POSSIBLE (possible, mind you!) that they are not fully disclosing this particular fact. It would be much easier to make a counter proposal to management if it was known ahead of time that in fact they will are not getting a team of seasoned veterans, but instead are getting trainees as well. I also think it will help companies to ask ahead of time what percentage of trainees they are getting.
I think we've done a good job here of really analyzing the consulting practice and how it works. Once again, I may be guilty of overgeneralizing based on those two emails, but on the other hand, I think it spawned this conversation which really raised the level of understanding, certainly on my side, of the entire process.
I don't mean to make disparage anyone's individual expertise. I said at the very beginning of this thread that I've worked with great programmers of all backgrounds. I just wanted to get a clear understanding of the types of talent that are displacing American workers, and this thread has gone a long way towards doing that.
Thank you for taking the time to express your views.
Joe
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Okay, one last comment, since you're asking nicely (and indeed, you've been pretty cordial, despite the obvious heat in the subject).
Yes, that's what I meant. By extension I also meant that I don't think American companies realize that they are getting lots of newbies on their projects. I think this discussion will go a long way to raising awareness on that topic. Many consulting companies are displacing EXPERT American workers, simply because they are cheaper, and it's POSSIBLE (possible, mind you!) that they are not fully disclosing this particular fact. It would be much easier to make a counter proposal to management if it was known ahead of time that in fact they will are not getting a team of seasoned veterans, but instead are getting trainees as well. I also think it will help companies to ask ahead of time what percentage of trainees they are getting.
I think we've done a good job here of really analyzing the consulting practice and how it works. Once again, I may be guilty of overgeneralizing based on those two emails, but on the other hand, I think it spawned this conversation which really raised the level of understanding, certainly on my side, of the entire process.
I don't mean to make disparage anyone's individual expertise. I said at the very beginning of this thread that I've worked with great programmers of all backgrounds. I just wanted to get a clear understanding of the types of talent that are displacing American workers, and this thread has gone a long way towards doing that.
Thank you for taking the time to express your views.
Joe

OK, let me entice you to make one more post.
The US company is not 'getting' people. It is getting its job done. Who works on the project is immaterial. I'll give you a very famous an example to back up my statement. Last year, JPMorgan Chase outsourced ALL is IT needs to IBM for XXX million dollars (I don't remember the exact amount) It is a 5(or 7?) year deal. The deal is not about people. The deal is about a job. Who does IBM put on doing the job is IBM's business.
Now, what is less know is the fact that IBM has a big offshore development center in Bangalore, India. I don't know this, but I can imagine that lot of work might even be done there. But again, that's IBM headache. FYI, IBM India does hire freshers. So it is possible that many freshers might even work on JPM projects.
Now, regarding displacing Americans. That's how capitalism works. It screwed India and tons of other colonial countries, it will screw America, and it will screw the whole f***ing planet. You take my word for it. You can stop outsourcing but that will just cure one of the symptoms of the illness. You cannot stop the disease.
[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Teri To ]
Russ Ray
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 11, 2003
Posts: 52
Joe:
I could not agree with you more!!! I took the step on contacting my Congressman nearly three months ago based on my own experience and what I read from this forum. Last night, I got a reply from his staff. It seems the "Honorable" Spencer Bachus from Alabama is on the committee who has a vote in this matter. Here is his website:
Congressman Spencer Bachus
We should require industry to denote how much of their workforce is made up of Americans and how much of their products are built by and assembled by American workers/engineers. I truly believe America would love to know what companies are selling out the American worker!!!
Dan Stephens
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 2
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:


The reason I dont feel like registering at mcpressonline is because I know that the majority of people who roam around such sites wouldnt even give a dimes worth of their sense to hear my side of the argument. I fought several such people in vain on the threads of ZDNet.com
After a while, I decided never again to involve myself in any such debate. This thread has been the first one in a long time for me.

I totally agree. This is the first time I have allowed myself to get sucked into one of these. I stay at mcpress online because for my platform they have some good experts. But I stay away from the political stuff normally.
[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Dan Stephens ]
Patty Bernatz
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 2
Originally posted by Teri To:
Where will you get experienced people from if nobody is letting a fresher have experience???

From the already experienced, displaced AMERICAN WORKFORCE!
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
The reason I dont feel like registering at mcpressonline is because I know that the majority of people who roam around such sites wouldnt even give a dimes worth of their sense to hear my side of the argument. I fought several such people in vain on the threads of ZDNet.com
You know, I passed this up, Paul, but this may be the silliest post I've ever heard. Here you are making a big stink about what I wrote, and yet I'm willing to take a stand against whatever opposition there may be.
You on the other hand are not willing to debate with real people - people who have worked in the industry for 20 or 25 years, and who are losing their jobs because of outsourcing and visas. Instead, you'd rather sit here in the relatively comfortable confines of what is a pretty singleminded group. (At least the ones who are posting.)
Me, I'm willing to put my opinions up against yours and against my own particular niche. You on the other hand won't talk outside your comfort zone. That says an awful lot to me about whose arguments really stand up to scrutiny in the real world.
Joe
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
You know, I passed this up, Paul, but this may be the silliest post I've ever heard. Here you are making a big stink about what I wrote, and yet I'm willing to take a stand against whatever opposition there may be.


Excuse me!!
Joe, you have a serious problem here in reading my posts or I am just not getting through to you. Please read through each and every one of my posts.. I have not once, not once ever said that your points on visas and outsourcing are incorrect. The point I debated consistently with you is regarding your assumption on freshers, newbies on discussion forums and how freshers work on projects.
Please avoid making rash statements, or if you feel I am in error here then please let me know.. If I disagreed with your outlook on visas and outsourcing I would have definetly joined McPress Online and debated you there but I do share some of your views though not in such extreme.

You on the other hand are not willing to debate with real people - people who have worked in the industry for 20 or 25 years, and who are losing their jobs because of outsourcing and visas. Instead, you'd rather sit here in the relatively comfortable confines of what is a pretty singleminded group. (At least the ones who are posting.)
Me, I'm willing to put my opinions up against yours and against my own particular niche. You on the other hand won't talk outside your comfort zone. That says an awful lot to me about whose arguments really stand up to scrutiny in the real world.

Javaranch is a very diverse community. There are people who think like me and people who think differently and people who think like you. I participate here not because I find strength in numbers for my way of thought but because I find more diversity in the opinions that are experssed here. Why dont you answer this question: I'm sure there are several Americans on this very forum, who have been laid off due to outsourcing.. where are they? Why are they keeping silent? Am I preventing them from posting?
And what led you to make the assumption that I am single-minded as well.. please track back onto page 1 of this discussion thread and see me fending off "Teri To" on one of his posts which I thought was absolutely ridiculous.
For you to fling such false accusations at me is totally uncalled for. I do not wish to debate this topic with you anymore!
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Paul, this whole thread is about nothing BUT my views on newbies and the mailing lists. Of course there's no discussion of the other 90% of my article, because you can't argue about it. The only possible thing to argue is the status of newbies, and all of you are jumping in on the bandwagon, you included, Paul. So when I say you're making a stink, you are. You're standing right alongside all the other apologists who say throwing newbies on commercial projects is okay.
As to accusations, you're the one who started flinging 'em, buddy:
The reason I dont feel like registering at mcpressonline is because I know that the majority of people who roam around such sites wouldnt even give a dimes worth of their sense to hear my side of the argument. I fought several such people in vain on the threads of ZDNet.com.
Majority of people? Such sites? Wouldn't hear your side? How would you know? The people who frequent MCPressOnline are good, hardworking people, from various parts of the globe. How dare you generalize like this, sir! That's what REALLY pissed me off. This whole stupid thread is because you people say I generalized too much, and then you go and throw that blatant generalization out.
You don't want to debate with me anymore? Fine. But you owe an apology to all the good readers of MCPressOnline who you unfairly tarred with your prejudiced brush.
You do, however, make one good point:
I'm sure there are several Americans on this very forum, who have been laid off due to outsourcing.. where are they? Why are they keeping silent? Am I preventing them from posting?
I can't answer that. I know that there are plenty of people in my industry that are being laid off. It may be that there aren't that many Java programmers being laid off yet, or maybe they don't want to rock the boat because they realize they may have to work for an Indian firm in order to get a job. I don't know, Paul, and it really disappoints me. All it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to say nothing.
Joe
lenin laker
Greenhorn

Joined: Apr 02, 2003
Posts: 10
Hi joe,
The article was very nice reading it express all the things happenning.
But a small suggestion.

A project can be worked by many level/expertise people. No need to be all experts are working on the project. By combining 3(experts):1(non-expert) can also project may be done or what ever ratio. In some cases 3 (experts )may be busy or 1 (non-expert) may be new to team in that case they may ask questions. you don't have any right to point their questions in your article. Do some article one your own thinking..don't show up other opinions.

So, What I want to say finally is you made good article but its not good to show ur personal feeling on wipro/XYZ. Just talk globally and be an open mind to understand the problems.
A company may have many people in that all may not be experts..all people share their views...that becomes all are experts.
Okay any way have GOOD THANKS GIVING HOLIDAYS.
bye.
Varun Khanna
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 30, 2002
Posts: 1400
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Okay, one last comment, since you're asking nicely (and indeed, you've been pretty cordial, despite the obvious heat in the subject).
.....

Joe I like you
and do like reading your comments, though I may not agree with it , but you are a nice folk No Doubt !!!
[ November 26, 2003: Message edited by: V�r�n Kha�n� ]

- Varun
george franciscus
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 28
Hi joe,

thats very nice and your article gives life for us.
But anyway our is good wills AMERICANS. So, lets wish all the world same..
have good time.
Ashwini Mehta
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 14
Joe - IMHO your article was just another (yaaawwwnnn) run off the mill wailing articles that we've seena downpour of in the past several months. Nothing new except that you went one step further to isolate companies and defame them as providing low quality services on the basis on one post you SAY you on some site. In any argument, you pick up a few statements that are totally out-of-context and make another silly argument.... at times i wonder if you enjoy being annoying (ooohhh i feel a moderator edit coming on).
Anyways, I too feel (as has been expressed by another) that all you want to do is generate some excitement for a humdrum yaawwn article by making explosive comments in the middle. I truly hope that you get your sued off for defamation.
Ok this is my last post - I',m off - no more, absolutely the last post then I'm outta here!!! (ooooooooh could not resist
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1871
Anyway,Wipro is conducting walkins on coming Saturday/Sunday in Mumbai/Pune/Blr.Careers.Those who have applied in last 6 months need not apply again. Here is the outsourcing white paper by Wipro.
Ashwini Mehta
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 14
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
But you owe an apology to all the good readers of MCPressOnline who you unfairly tarred with your prejudiced brush.
Joe

And YOU owe an even bigger apology for trashing one of the biggest and best Indian software companies.... somehow can't imagine you doing that.
[ November 26, 2003: Message edited by: Ashwini Mehta ]
Ashwini Mehta
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Posts: 14
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win - Mahatma Gandhi
I'd say we are at stage 3 now
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Last post on the topic.
I do not think it's right to have newbies with no experience working on any non-trivial part of my system. The emails show they are. That's all I said.
Joe


Well, to any rational, clear headed human being, those emails will not prove anything like that, and that�s NOT ALL what you said when you put it in the context of your article. I think you still have a chance to come clean and admit your errors, but I wouldn't be too surprised if you didn't! And yes, you are entitled to your opinion, well, as Jim Yingst posted once, there are people out there who still think planet Earth is flat!!
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Paul, this whole thread is about nothing BUT my views on newbies and the mailing lists. Of course there's no discussion of the other 90% of my article, because you can't argue about it. The only possible thing to argue is the status of newbies, and all of you are jumping in on the bandwagon, you included, Paul. So when I say you're making a stink, you are. You're standing right alongside all the other apologists who say throwing newbies on commercial projects is okay.

Joe, thats my point. This whole discussion thread was about newbies, and thats why I got involved. If I felt you were right about newbies why in the world would I get involved?A discussion is supposed to have two sides.. (not neccessarily, but they generally do). I am on the opposing side because I feel you are wrong about newbies. And like you said, the this argument entails only 10% of your article. So what sense would it make for me to come to McPress Online and debate 10% of the article.. somehow Joe, I think you realize the flaw in your argument as well.
I dont get you here Joe, first you begin by saying "the only thing that can be argued about is the status of newbies". Then you proclaim that people who argue for the status of newbies on projects are apologists. Seems to me like you dont want anyone to disagree with you.. or they will be branded as apologists.

As to accusations, you're the one who started flinging 'em, buddy:
The reason I dont feel like registering at mcpressonline is because I know that the majority of people who roam around such sites wouldnt even give a dimes worth of their sense to hear my side of the argument. I fought several such people in vain on the threads of ZDNet.com.
Majority of people? Such sites? Wouldn't hear your side? How would you know? The people who frequent MCPressOnline are good, hardworking people, from various parts of the globe. How dare you generalize like this, sir! That's what REALLY pissed me off. This whole stupid thread is because you people say I generalized too much, and then you go and throw that blatant generalization out.
You don't want to debate with me anymore? Fine. But you owe an apology to all the good readers of MCPressOnline who you unfairly tarred with your prejudiced brush.

OK! Maybe I am guilty of generalizing the people of McPress Online based upon my experience at ZDNET.com. For that I apologize to the users of McPress Online. BUT!! I am just as guilty as you are Joe! Just as guilty as you are of generalizing the newbie workforce based on 2 emails. Where is your apology for that? Or like you said yourself.. "you just wont apologize".
Joe, do you ever wonder why everyone (atleast on this forum) who disagrees with you sooner or later just gets fed up and walks away? I apologize in advance if this question offends you but I think its a valid question to ask yourself.

You do, however, make one good point:
I'm sure there are several Americans on this very forum, who have been laid off due to outsourcing.. where are they? Why are they keeping silent? Am I preventing them from posting?
I can't answer that. I know that there are plenty of people in my industry that are being laid off. It may be that there aren't that many Java programmers being laid off yet, or maybe they don't want to rock the boat because they realize they may have to work for an Indian firm in order to get a job. I don't know, Paul, and it really disappoints me. All it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to say nothing.
Joe

See Joe, this is the reason I wont want to debate with you anymore. You equate Indian firm with evil. You are either extreme in your arguments or you simply dont take the pain to read them over and make sure your point is delivered without overtones.
And before I finish off, let me give you a brief insight into why I said what I said about McPress.. A year ago I started reading websites like Zazona, noMoreH1b etc.. and I'd read articles related to this on ZDNet.com where there is a large American developer readership. Threads over there would spawn in the range of 500-600 posts. And often, not always but often, I'd be the sole person from India there. If I took an alternative viewpoint, I'd appear as a "turkey" in that forum. An assault would be mounted by almost everyone else. Now I am not saying that these people didnt make valid points but many of them would make senseless comments just because I was an easy target for them to vent their frustration on. After "trying" to debate on 2-3 article I gave up. Infact you'll even find such senseless comments on some older threads in this forum. I remember the famous "Nuke India" by Rufus.. I'll never forget that.
I'm sure you probably dont have any such experience.. so thats why you dont know what I am talking about.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
I'm sure there are several Americans on this very forum, who have been laid off due to outsourcing.. where are they? Why are they keeping silent? Am I preventing them from posting?

We have discussed this and related issues several times. It's always been hard to carry on much of a discussion between the snipes and the personal attacks by the Indians. The truth usually silences the hecklers.
I notice a lot of people posting in US time zone with foreign national names and newby questions. Are those Americans disguising themselves with foreign national names? Or are they H1-B's with out the specialy skills and experience they claim to have.
I can dig up the link to the claim that most H1-B CV's contain lies about skills.
I don't think any of the old timers on this board have changed their position that the H1-B's need to go home today.
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Visas and Outsourcing
 
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