aspose file tools*
The moose likes Jobs Discussion and the fly likes US tech majors defend outsourcing Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Careers » Jobs Discussion
Bookmark "US tech majors defend outsourcing " Watch "US tech majors defend outsourcing " New topic
Author

US tech majors defend outsourcing

Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
If outsourcing is used to get better quality and/or reduce costs, can anyone tell me about a CEO or director who has taken a pay cut?
Surely it's not just us high tech drones who have to suck up the pain and tighten our belts?

Um, why not? Think about it from the CEO's perspective.
They have a certain amount of revenue and expenses, the difference of the two being profits. The CEO is responsibile to the board of directors who represent the shareholders. The CEO has no direct responsibility to the employees* (see below). If the CEO discovered that he can make more money for the shareholders by outsources he should do so. In fact, it can be argued he is obligated to do so.
*Obviously a company that treat's its employees badly will do poorly. Good companies do take the employee's needs into account (e.g. IBM's no layoff policy for decades). Of course, comapnies which do this generally believe that the monetary benefits justify the cost of such services.
Why should a CEO take a paycut? The CEO says, "You pay me D dollars and I will produce V value for the company," with everyone believing V-D = P > 0. If they reduce D to D' the CEO leaves and a new one takes over producing value V', where V'-D'=P'. If P' < P then the company should keep the CEO at the current pay rate, if not, they should get someone new for D'. The similar calculation for done for engineers they felt it was cheaper to outsource. The CEO's compensation and enigneer's compensation, in this limited model, are orthogonal.
Now I happen to think most companies which calculate a savings from outsourcing are wrong. They don't understand the hidden costs. Nevertheless, their logic is correct, even if their math isn't.

--Mark
Bhau Mhatre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 199
From Paul McKenna ---------
I know the question is meant for Joe, but here is my take on this. ...
...That is reality.. as sad as it may sound.
---------------------------
I kind of agree with you. But I don't think it is sad.
From Joe Pluta---------
You realize of course that this sort of hypothetical question is much larger than the simpler one each American citizen can act on themselves, and that the limitations of this sort of forum won't allow me to do the question justice, correct?
---------------------------
Ofcourse I do. But since you said that you were reminded of Germany and you are kind of 'speaking up NOW before it is too late', I wanted to ask you --- What is it that you are speaking up? Who is your audience? And what exaclty do you wish to acheive by speaking up? You, Joe Pluta, as a great visionary, how do you visualize the course of American economy and the outcome of your 'speaking up' project, if people were to listen to you and things were to happen your way. --- Instead of using so many questions, I took the shortcut and asked directly what would you do if you were elected? Sorry for talking the liberty of the shortcut.
But thanks to you, you answered it well. Really. Agreed with most of your points.
Now if you consider IT and accounting as type 2 slipping to type 3, you can have tariffs. But that does not mean offshoring is completely inherently evil that you have to 'speak up' using olden German analogy. You can protect local providers. I have nothing more to debate in that direction.
My first reply was more related to your idea of trying to retain a few dollars within the US (by not purchasing anything from Walmart) when developing countries are slowly learning the lesson from US to open up their markets. IMHO, dollars going out of US is not bad. They are bound to come back one way or another. They have always been.
but the idea is there - buy American, build America.
I thought America was already built long time back! In fact, it is now capable of building other nations. It has built many before and is even doing so now. Why the paranoia?
[ January 12, 2004: Message edited by: Bhau Mhatre ]

-Mumbai cha Bhau
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
As I have said over and over - offshoring is nowhere near as big a deal as the visa abuses. As you point out, offshore outsourcing has been happening for a long time, and it will continue to do so. In my industry, I have never seen a successful large-scale outsourcing project, so I'm not terribly worried about it.
I am far more concerned about the visa problem. This is basically taking advantage of American management and American equipment and American infrastructure, simply replacing American workers with cheap foreign labor. That's wrong, and in fact IT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN BY LAW. Because visa holders are required by the law to make the prevailing wage of comparable domestic employees. So, if a company is using visas to reduce costs, they're BY DEFINITION breaking the law somewhere.
Anyway, I've presented my views in detail. I've made it clear where I stand, and I've seen no valid argument. Now it's up to me, and peopl elike me, to make our voices heard. I will do everything I can to end visa abuses. I will also work hard to try and find ways to build the education in America. I will try to find like-minded political representatives and see what I can do to get them elected.
I've learned a lot over the last several months here, but nothing shakes my conviction that the rest of the world could care less if the entire American middle class goes bankrupt. In fact, there are some who feel entitled to the standard of living that Americans enjoy, and will do anything they can do get it, even if it means throwing every American out of work. The fact that such a view is terribly shortsighted and that a large part of the world economy depends upon the buying power of Americans is lost on those people, but that's neither here nor there. It simply means we have to take care of this from within.
Visas have to go, and the only way we're going to get rid of them is by directly pushing our Congress.
Joe
Bela Bardak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 02, 2004
Posts: 179
I've learned a lot over the last several months here, but nothing shakes my conviction that the rest of the world could care less if the entire American middle class goes bankrupt. In fact, there are some who feel entitled to the standard of living that Americans enjoy, and will do anything they can do get it, even if it means throwing every American out of work. The fact that such a view is terribly shortsighted and that a large part of the world economy depends upon the buying power of Americans is lost on those people, but that's neither here nor there. It simply means we have to take care of this from within.

Joe, how many 'middle class Americans' give a darn about the standard of living of the average Chinese or Indian? Not many, not excluding myself. We may care about whether they get fed or AIDS, or medical treatment, or good water 'tis true. But we usually don't care whether they can afford a washer or to own a car. That is the way it is.
My concern is not for any particular visa program. Seems to me that the H1B/L1 programs may have been abused (particularly the latter from what I hear). But it's important that the US leave the door open to talented foreigners, or even humble foreigners willing to work hard and raise their kids right. That is a huge part of what makes the US the US and not (say) Germany. Or (shudder) France......
Bhau Mhatre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 199
From Joe Pluta ---------
As I have said over and over - offshoring is nowhere near as big a deal as the visa abuses. As you point out, offshore outsourcing has been happening for a long time, and it will continue to do so. In my industry, I have never seen a successful large-scale outsourcing project, so I'm not terribly worried about it.
---------------------------
I am glad you said that. I'll frame it and treasure it forever
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Joe, how many 'middle class Americans' give a darn about the standard of living of the average Chinese or Indian? Not many, not excluding myself. We may care about whether they get fed or AIDS, or medical treatment, or good water 'tis true. But we usually don't care whether they can afford a washer or to own a car. That is the way it is.
There's a difference between not giving something to someone, and taking something from someone. You don't seem to grasp the difference. We already have a standard of living built upon two centuries of hard work. Why exactly does our wealth now need to be spread out amongst the rest of the world? I find this especially egregious since parts of the world can't even control their own population growth. Is it the job of America to support the standard of living of the world, regardless of how many people they choose to put on the planet?

My concern is not for any particular visa program. Seems to me that the H1B/L1 programs may have been abused (particularly the latter from what I hear).
Then you haven't done much research there, because visa programs are draining the American economy, wiping out hundreds of thousands of jobs every year, wiping out billions of dollars of income with pretty much no return to the American taxpayer. Once again, I invite you to actually do smoe research before typing.

But it's important that the US leave the door open to talented foreigners, or even humble foreigners willing to work hard and raise their kids right. That is a huge part of what makes the US the US and not (say) Germany. Or (shudder) France......
Abolishing the H- and L- visa will do nothing to stop this. Have you taken the time to read about the different visas and how immigration works in this country? At the risk of repeating myself, I definitely encourage you to perhaps read about the subject - you might be surprised what you will learn!
Joe
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Joe: There's a difference between not giving something to someone, and taking something from someone.
Do not want to start a fight, just a remark. Joe, you seems forgot how this country started!


Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Do not want to start a fight, just a remark. Joe, you seems forgot how this country started!
Oh Map, you disappoint me. I suppose you're insisting we "stole" America from the Native Americans.
This country didn't "start" by Americans killing the natives. That process began with the colonialization of the western hemisphere by the European nations. And while the early Americans did indeed inflict great damage on the Native Americans, it wasn't nearly so bad as say, the Spanish. And yet the kind of person who dredges up this tired old argument never brings that up, do they? The fact that they're typically too uneducated to do so is probably part of the problem, but that's certainly not your excuse. You've just got the old America bashing stick out tonight.
I'm surprised and a little disenchanted, Map. Typically you're much more creative in your America bashing; to stoop to the traditional "blame America for its past sins" argument - the same old argument used by every America-basher since time immemorial - well that really makes me sad for you.
Anyway, why not finish the argument? Continuing down this well-trodden road, the next thing you need to do is wring your hands about slavery, which ended some 150 years ago in this country.
And then I suggest you quit dredging up ancient history, because there isn't a country on the planet that fares very well in that particular game. Reasonable people usually figure the statute of limitations to run out after a century, Map. But not you! I guess you're still blaming modern Germans for the Holocaust. :roll:
This argument is specious, out of date, irrelevant, and completely lacking in intellectual integrity. I expect better from you, Map.
Joe
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Oh my God. Why did I say that I do not want to start a fight? What for?
Joe: I suppose you're insisting we "stole" America from the Native Americans.
I didn't say that, neither was I intended to bring up any of supposed "atrocities" (not to mention "slavery"). Not "stole", just "took". And yes, I am aware of other countries dark colonial past, thank you. And we are not in Spain.
Joe, you read into my words *much* more than I intended, and then launch "Defend America" operation, which is, to tell the truth, unnecessary. Save your time for *real* America-bashers please.
And then I suggest you quit dredging up ancient history, because there isn't a country on the planet that fares very well in that particular game. Reasonable people usually figure the statute of limitations to run out after a century, Map. But not you!
I took your "We already have a standard of living built upon two centuries of hard work" as an invitation to some excursus into history. Sorry for that.
What I wanted to say, that economics has its own rules. People move from economically "poor" places to "advanced" or at least to where they hope they can prosper. They did it in past, and they do it now. If they can do it staying home - even better. Do they "steal" our jobs? No more than we steal jobs from those who weren't hired because we were. You think it's unfair competition, and from *our* side it is. From their side, they only turn their disadvantage to their advantage. From their side it's awfully fair.
Why exactly does our wealth now need to be spread out amongst the rest of the world?
It's like to say "why does our city need to be destroyed by an earthquake". If you can prevent it -- do it by all means! Just don't blame earthquake.
[ January 12, 2004: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Oh my God. Why did I say that I do not want to start a fight? What for?
Yes, indeed, Map, what for?

Joe: I suppose you're insisting we "stole" America from the Native Americans.
Map: I didn't say that, neither was I intended to bring up any of supposed "atrocities" (not to mention "slavery"). Not "stole", just "took".
And the difference between "stole" and "took" is the issue of permission. Are you suggesting we had permission? I don't think so. Thus you did in fact mean "stole".
Please Map, let's not argue semantics. For one thing, I'm much better at it than you are, at least in English .

Joe, you read into my words *much* more than I intended, and then launch "Defend America" operation, which is, to tell the truth, unnecessary. Save your time for *real* America-bashers please.
Then next time Map, do me the favor of not writing cryptic little messages, and have the respect to type what you mean. I can only respond to what you type, not to what you intended. Many of our problems in communication come from your lack of doing so.

I took your "We already have a standard of living built upon two centuries of hard work" as an invitation to some excursus into history. Sorry for that.
You're forgiven.

What I wanted to say, that economics has its own rules. People move from economically "poor" places to "advanced" or at least to where they hope they can prosper. They did it in past, and they do it now.
See, this is the problem. You equate immigration with H- and L- visas. It's simply not the same. There is no movement involved, these people don't plan to stay in this country, they are purely and simply draining wealth.

If they can do it staying home - even better.
No, not better. It is theft.

Do they "steal" our jobs?
Yes.

No more than we steal jobs from those who weren't hired because we were.
False. I am competing with someone with the same cost of living, not someone charging one tenth because they are artificially subsidized by specialty work visas.

You think it's unfair competition, and from *our* side it is. From their side, they only turn their disadvantage to their advantage. From their side it's awfully fair.
There's no issue of fairness here. This is people stealing American jobs who have no plan on living in America. It is done so outsourcers can profit and shareholders get a few more pennies per share. American workers lose their jobs - their livelihoods are stolen from them. And it is theft, because we are the ones who built this economy that can afford to pay such rates, not the visa workers or the outsourcers who are sucking the lifeblood out of the Aemrican economy. Once that economy is gone, and everybody is "equal", then what, Map?

Joe: Why exactly does our wealth now need to be spread out amongst the rest of the world?
Map: It's like to say "why does our city need to be destroyed by an earthquake". If you can prevent it -- do it by all means! Just don't blame earthquake.
How blasphemous of you to compare Congressionaly subsidized theft with an act of God! I suppose an atheist might be able to make such a claim, or a Cnogressman - only those two would equate Congressional Power with Divine Omnipotence.
Joe
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Me: Oh my God. Why did I say that I do not want to start a fight? What for?
Joe: Yes, indeed, Map, what for?

For not to have it, Joe!
Please Map, let's not argue semantics. For one thing, I'm much better at it than you are, at least in English
Sorry, Joe, you are not.
And the difference between "stole" and "took" is the issue of permission. Are you suggesting we had permission? I don't think so. Thus you did in fact mean "stole".
If we are into semantics, the correct word is "robbed".
Then next time Map, do me the favor of not writing cryptic little messages, and have the respect to type what you mean. I can only respond to what you type, not to what you intended. Many of our problems in communication come from your lack of doing so.
Joe, when I find somebody's message too short, I ask the author to elaborate on it! I cannot predict how my little message can be misunderstood, I thought it' clear enough.
See, this is the problem. You equate immigration with H- and L- visas. It's simply not the same. There is no movement involved, these people don't plan to stay in this country, they are purely and simply draining wealth.
Actually, many of them do plan to stay. I do not have statistics, though, and if somebody has it, post it please... Ok, clarification of my intentions, as requested: I am not trying to justify H1/L1 visa existence, they are a nonsense now and I do not think they had any real ground to exist from the very beginning.
What I am trying to say, these visas are almost the only possible way of immigration for a young male who cannot ask for political asylum. (unless you consider the green card lottery a real chance).
No, not better. It is theft.
Joe, you just said "the difference between "stole" and "took" is the issue of permission". Definitely they do not do it without permission, unless they counterfeited their papers, of course.
False. I am competing with someone with the same cost of living, not someone charging one tenth because they are artificially subsidized by specialty work visas.
You probably mean outsourcing, not visas (if we are talking about 1/10). But Joe, is this their fault that they were born in a less developed country? No, in fact, it's unfair that they were. Now they compensate for it.
"Fairness" argument doesn't make much sense IMHO. Let's take somebody who was born stupider than you, or perhaps his parents were alcoholics, or maybe he couldn't afford college; so now he has a low-paid job, do you think *this* is awfully fair?
Once that economy is gone, and everybody is "equal", then what, Map?
Then everybody is equal. Or do you expect the end of the world?
How blasphemous of you to compare Congressionaly subsidized theft with an act of God! I suppose an atheist might be able to make such a claim, or a Cnogressman - only those two would equate Congressional Power with Divine Omnipotence.

Ok, Ok, my apologies...
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Then everybody is equal. Or do you expect the end of the world?
Yes, actually. The end of a productive world. I've seen what enforced "equality" brings. So have you.
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
But Joe, is this their fault that they were born in a less developed country? No, in fact, it's unfair that they were. Now they compensate for it.
We have worked to make America a developed country, and the world now thinks that means we have to give all that up to the rest of the world. This is not "compensation". This is socialism, on a global scale. It's failed miserably in most countries, why not see if we can wreck the whole global economy!
If India want to make themselves a global powerhouse, do it without displacing American jobs.

Let's take somebody who was born stupider than you, or perhaps his parents were alcoholics, or maybe he couldn't afford college; so now he has a low-paid job, do you think *this* is awfully fair?
It's life, Map. Not everybody gets the same breaks. Some have to work harder than others. Fair is not giving everybody the same circumstances. Fair is giving everyone the opportunity to overcome their circumstances.
For example, let's take a young man in an underprivileged neighborhood, like your example Map. He watches you day in and day out making money and building yourself a nice lifestyle. One day he decides it's not fair that you have everything and he has nothing. So what that you have worked hard all your life for your things - he didn't have the opportunity to do so! You had college! You had good parents, and he didn't! You have two TV sets and he has none!
So, in the interest of fairness, he goes into your house and steals one of your television sets.
This is the "global harmonization of wages". This is socialism. This is disaster.
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
If we are into semantics, the correct word is "robbed".
"Stole" and "robbed" are MUCH closer semantically than "stole" and "took", Map, which means you just made my point for me. Thank you for playing the Semantics Game!
Don Pardo, tell her what she won...
Joe
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Joe: "Stole" and "robbed" are MUCH closer semantically than "stole" and "took", Map,
"took" is a more generic term, Joe, than both "steal" or "rob". Therefore it is not a mistake to use "took" instead of either, this is simply imprecise.
which means you just made my point for me.
Definitely. I helped *you* to formulate *your* "criminal" version more precisely. This doesn't mean *I* share the same interpretation of events.
Thank you for playing the Semantics Game!
I was playing YOUR game, Joe, indeed. "Stole", "robbed"... These words are defined for human beings, when applied for countries, they are used metaphorically. I avoid them because they have a rather strong negative component in their meaning which is 1) tangential to this discussion 2) potentially inflammatory. This is pragmatics, not semantics.
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Joe: We have worked to make America a developed country, and the world now thinks that means we have to give all that up to the rest of the world.
Like if the rest of the world was watching "Rembo" all this time instead... :roll: But why do you think the world thinks that "we have to give all that up"??? The world (part of it, actually) sees the opportunities American companies offer, and they embark on these opportunities.
This is not "compensation". This is socialism, on a global scale.
Actually *socialism* was about "closed" or "regulated" market, if I remember correctly!
Yes, actually. The end of a productive world. I've seen what enforced "equality" brings. So have you.
Now we are onto something. Too bad, I have very poor knowledge of economics... So Joe, what you are saying is that for progress to happen, there must be "rich" and "poor" countries?
[ January 13, 2004: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
The world (part of it, actually) sees the opportunities American companies offer, and they embark on these opportunities.
Not if they are taking American jobs. The fact that these people insist on making their money at the expense of Americans is the problem.

Now we are onto something. Too bad, I have very poor knowledge of economics... So Joe, what you are saying is that for progress to happen, there must be "rich" and "poor" countries?
In a way, yes. If you distribute the wealth to everyone regardless of the effort they put in, then there is no incentive to excel. But we're delving into an area that is more philosophical than anything.
I oppose the forcible redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor. This sort of "Robin Hood" mentality is unhealthy for all, but mostly for me, since I'm one of the rich.
Basically, by saying you want wealth to be redistributed, you're saying the rich should suffer just because they're rich.
Joe
Tony Collins
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 435
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
See, this is the problem. You equate immigration with H- and L- visas. It's simply not the same. There is no movement involved, these people don't plan to stay in this country, they are purely and simply draining wealth.

If they can do it staying home - even better.
No, not better. It is theft.

Do they "steal" our jobs?
Yes.
False. I am competing with someone with the same cost of living, not someone charging one tenth because they are artificially subsidized by specialty work visas.

You think it's unfair competition, and from *our* side it is. From their side, they only turn their disadvantage to their advantage. From their side it's awfully fair.
There's no issue of fairness here. This is people stealing American jobs who have no plan on living in America. It is done so outsourcers can profit and shareholders get a few more pennies per share. American workers lose their jobs - their livelihoods are stolen from them. And it is theft, because we are the ones who built this economy that can afford to pay such rates, not the visa workers or the outsourcers who are sucking the lifeblood out of the Aemrican economy. Once that economy is gone, and everybody is "equal", then what, Map?

Joe[/QB]

Joe this has happened many times before and the hate has been maintained for years. It's a real mistake to fall into that hate.
In the 30's Southern Irish where brought into the docks in Liverpool and Glasgow, as they would work for lower wages. Instantly we had a race problem, which still exists today. The unions fueled this hate( as you are), what they should have done is unionise internationally. The workers across international borders should have united, just as the employers had.
So really the problem is one of capitilists uniting and the wokers not uniting. We face the same problem today. A lack of socialism.
Tony
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
This is people stealing American jobs who have no plan on living in America. It is done so outsourcers can profit and shareholders get a few more pennies per share. American workers lose their jobs - their livelihoods are stolen from them.

'The curse of MD', I suppose, is spreading to other areas as well. Once rationally thinking, unbiased and very articulate people like Joe Pluta and Paul McKenna later turns out to be absolutely biased and arrogant. I wonder why!? I hope its not because they have a rather easily gullible audience here in Javaranch, or is it because busy professionals in this forum gets easily tired of talking same old stuff over and over again! I know I am.
Well, Joe, I am not going to bother to try arguing with you, but from my pov, you have gone down from a rationally thinking, biased poster to someone who will do/say anything to help the side you are on. It could be the influence of the highly biased groups that you are participating recently (related to visa abuse etc), but I guess you have no grounds to fight on if you take on us with statements like “They stole our jobs”.
Do you see brown skinned people flying down to America wearing facemasks and shotguns to break-in and “STEAL” American jobs? Or are you seeing fat American CEO’s partying out their newly earned profit share, after hiring H1B’s, or outsourcing or what ever? Get real!! Please do keep in mind that jobs of some of the less-qualified, less-efficient American workers are being replaced by cheaper, best of the talent foreign workers, who travel great deal and work their a*se off, and spend their truly-hard-earned money IN America. Indians are not in America because its their right, but its America’s need – or so thinks your CEOs. If you don’t think its so, may be you should try talking to your money-munching politicians of your ‘perfect modern world’.
Thanks for reading.


[ flickr ]
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Once rationally thinking, unbiased and very articulate people like Joe Pluta and Paul McKenna later turns out to be absolutely biased and arrogant. I wonder why!?

Thanks for the "half-compliment".. but I'll disagree with you on the latter half of your remark. :roll:
Joe is falling into the classic 'anti-immigrant' pattern. What started out as a strife against H / L visas has now transformed into the anti-immigrant argument.
If every H and L visa holder agreed to stay in the US for the rest of their lives and become citizens would you then still argue the same way?? I think so.. because at the root of your argument is not the visa program but antipathy towards immigrant labour. You couldnt care less if the software programmers came using green cards or visas, your main problem is that foreigners are taking your job and that has always been the argument of anti-immigrant groups since the 1920s. Think about it.. and you'll realize the truth.


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Tony, Ashok, do you actually read the posts?
I like immigrants! My grandparents were immigrants!
I don't like H- and L- visas. And I don't think it's required that Americans distribute their wealth to the rest of the world. I believe H- and L- visas are stealing American jobs, and I don't think the people who abuse them care. I haven't heard either of you say you care about the Americans losing their jobs when foreigners work here on visas.
So how does this make me anti-immigrant?
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
If every H and L visa holder agreed to stay in the US for the rest of their lives and become citizens would you then still argue the same way?? I think so.. because at the root of your argument is not the visa program but antipathy towards immigrant labour.
Actually, I would prefer that someone become a citizen before they compete for American jobs.
I have no antipathy towards immigrants. ZERO. This statement is pure, malicious garbage, and I insist on an immediate retraction and public apology.
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
jobs of some of the less-qualified, less-efficient American workers are being replaced
This, by the way, is crap. You have no idea whose job you are stealing when you work on a visa. I've tried to take the high road and say that it's not the actual visa holder at fault, it's the visa abusers like the outsourcers and the CEOs. At the same time, though, there are people like you, Ashok, who make the situation worse by insisting that you're better than the Americans you're replacing. People like you, Ashok, are the ones who really make Americans angry.
Do you think we'd be having this argument if outsourcers and visa holders weren't working for a fraction of the wages of the Americans?
Joe
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
[b]
False. I am competing with someone with the same cost of living, not someone charging one tenth because they are artificially subsidized by specialty work visas.
Joe

I think you are confusing outsourcing with visas. H1B people compete with you at the same cost of living. And could you please explain how H1Bs are they artificially subsidized?
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
[b]
Abolishing the H- and L- visa will do nothing to stop this. Have you taken the time to read about the different visas and how immigration works in this country?
Joe

Could you please tell us one (yes, only one) way to get US citizenship that one can take without resorting to unlawful means like fake marriage or impractical means such a seeking assylum, or VISA lottery (which BTW is not open to India, China etc.)?
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Anyway, I'm getting out of this conversation while the getting is good.
I hate work visas in fields where there is no shortage of American workers. Work visas are NOT about getting cheaper labor, they were specifically made to only import foreign labor if there are NO Americans. It is clear there are Americans being laid off because of H- and L- visas. If you don't believe this, then there's little to talk about.
I am personally not concerned about losing my job to outsourcing.
I think America was built on immigration, and I think naturalized citizens should have every right of a natural-born citizen. I'm not even sure I agree with the restriction that the President be natural-born. But in any event, anyone painting me as anti-immigrant is, as my gramma would say "so full of crap their eyes are brown."
That's it. I'm done.
Stupid of me to argue with Map on philosophical issues, knowing that there are people here who will twist my words and attack me. I'm sorry, Map, but it is no longer possible to carry on civilized philosophical discussions anywhere on this board.
Joe
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
[QB]jobs of some of the less-qualified, less-efficient American workers are being replaced
This, by the way, is crap. You have no idea whose job you are stealing when you work on a visa. I've tried to take the high road and say that it's not the actual visa holder at fault, it's the visa abusers like the outsourcers and the CEOs.

May be to you, Joe, and thanks again for helping to state my point of arrogant posts from certain people.
Between, its defenitly the less-effiecient workers who lose their jobs before the talented workers, and you don't need to be ""American"" to know that. Its simple reasoning, of kinter-garten scope.

At the same time, though, there are people like you, Ashok, who make the situation worse by insisting that you're better than the Americans you're replacing.

Thanks again, you are really helping me prove my point. For being such a intellegent person that you are, I didn't expect you to mis-understand my post that far. Either you are being senselessly blind by the point you are trying to prove, or you are absolutely clueless. I said "..jobs of some of the less-qualified, less-efficient American workers are being replaced by cheaper, best of the talent(ed) foreign workers.
I pray to thee to help me understand where did I say 'foreign workers are better than Americans'? Or are you trying to tell me that every single American worker is absolutely better than 'the numero uno' Indian programmer filtered from a talent pool of a few hundred million programmers? Do you live in Springfield, Joe?
People like you, Ashok, are the ones who really make Americans angry.

I didn't know you had the power to speak for all Americans. I would have been a lot more careful I had known that. Between, I can't care less!
And as always you have cleaverly ignored the actual point - 'Indians are STEALING our jobs'. I say, Indians are not - if you are losing out your jobs, thats to your own CEO's and capitalism, not to poor technology workers, who just like you have bills to pay and ends to be met.
Thanks!
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
TT, you asked an actual question, so I'll answer it. Then I'm out of here.
I think you are confusing outsourcing with visas. H1B people compete with you at the same cost of living. And could you please explain how H1Bs are they artificially subsidized?
Not true. In most cases, visa holders have no mortgage, no children, no tuition reimbursement, no family to support. If they do, it's all back in their country of origin, which has a cost of living of one tenth of the United States. I agree I shouldn't have said "charging one tenth", it's more like "charging 2/3, one half or even less in some cases". But in any event, those people can only get away with this because they do not have the same cost of living citizens do.

Could you please tell us one (yes, only one) way to get US citizenship that one can take without resorting to unlawful means like fake marriage or impractical means such a seeking assylum, or VISA lottery (which BTW is not open to India, China etc.)?
Immediate relative visa. This is traditionally how people come to America. One person gets here, does well, brings their family.
The reason countries such as China and India (and the UK, for that matter!) are ineligible for the lottery is because they've sent over 50,000 immigrants here in the last five years.
Anyway, feel free to counter my points. I'm done here. This conversation can only get worse, and I really don't feel like getting into it any more. A person can be wholly against H- and L- visas and not be anti-immigrant, but evidently that's not understood.
Joe
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Not true. In most cases, visa holders have no mortgage, no children, no tuition reimbursement, no family to support. If they do, it's all back in their country of origin, which has a cost of living of one tenth of the United States.

This is BS! If an American wanted to compete at that he could too. He just has to live in a rented place like the visa holder. That way he doesnt have mortgage too (Now you may say that it lowers the standard of living etc.. but that is not what you said originally). Just like you questioned Ashok, how he could know whom the visa holder is replacing.. how can you know about the visa holders so specifically that they do not have children? Infact most of the visa holders I have worked with have families with children and they do pretty well at adjusting along. Tuition reimbursement is the only valid point above. No family to support??? This alone is enough to invalidate your entire argument. Do you know that most people come here on visas not just to earn money for themselves but to send back money and help their families...
Stephen Pride
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 14, 2000
Posts: 121
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
This is BS! If an American wanted to compete at that he could too. He just has to live in a rented place like the visa holder. That way he doesnt have mortgage too (Now you may say that it lowers the standard of living etc.. but that is not what you said originally).

So, the bottom line is that in order to compete, we must lower our standard of living. And not just IT workers, but just about every other worker whose job could be offshored (which is a probably a large majority of the middle class). Over time, our economy would deflate due to numerous factors (less consumer spending, less tax base, and so on) and the labor costs would finally reach a point of equilibrium between the USA and competing countries. I just wonder what our country's infrastructure would look like then ... perhaps India?


SCJP
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Joe, I agree with you that one can be anti-H1B and still not be anti-immigration. In fact, I do not even say that you are wrong in your support to ban H1B. If I were in your position, probably I would do the same.
HOWEVER, the problem is not with H1B people. The problem (if there is any)is with the setup in your country...with your managers. There is a conflict of interest between you and your manager. As it turns out, managers (read, caplitalists), are more powerful. It is not a surpise to me because US is a capilitalistic country, which is one extreme (the other being communism). You, obviously, have decided a point somewhere in between which you think suits *you* best. You managers think something else. It is a struggle between you and your managers not between you and H1Bs.

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
TT, you asked an actual question, so I'll answer it. Then I'm out of here.
I think you are confusing outsourcing with visas. H1B people compete with you at the same cost of living. And could you please explain how H1Bs are they artificially subsidized?
Not true. In most cases, visa holders have no mortgage, no children, no tuition reimbursement, no family to support. If they do, it's all back in their country of origin, which has a cost of living of one tenth of the United States. I agree I shouldn't have said "charging one tenth", it's more like "charging 2/3, one half or even less in some cases". But in any event, those people can only get away with this because they do not have the same cost of living citizens do.
Joe

Well, you don't know the complete picture. H1B is for 6 years. If a married person comes on H1B, he/she comes with spouse and childern. All on dependent VISA. The curse of dependent visa means the spouse cannot work. Yes, most don't have mortgage payments but then they have rent payments. Worse is that they CANNOT have mortage payments since because of the uncertainity of their stay in US, they cannot buy a house.
If a unmarried person comes then usually he/she gets married with a next couple of years and then same story applies as above.
The only extra expense that an amrican worker has that an H1B does not have is education, which I believe is more than compensated for by the fact that an H1B's spouce cannot work and an H1B cannot do any side business. All he can do is 40hr/week.
If you want me to work out my expenses and my salary, I can do that. And then you provide yours and we'll see who has more expenses and earnings and how much.
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

Could you please tell us one (yes, only one) way to get US citizenship that one can take without resorting to unlawful means like fake marriage or impractical means such a seeking assylum, or VISA lottery (which BTW is not open to India, China etc.)?
Immediate relative visa. This is traditionally how people come to America. One person gets here, does well, brings their family.
Joe

Not only this is very immparactical for most people (for obvious reasons) this is also a lot less beneficial to the US. The reason is that you will get less qualified immigrants than if you were to have a way that allows qualified people with no relatives in US. Even Canada has a better thought out process for immigration than just the "relatives" based that you are touting.
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

The reason countries such as China and India (and the UK, for that matter!) are ineligible for the lottery is because they've sent over 50,000 immigrants here in the last five years.
Joe

That's fair enough. It is a decision that you have to make and you can decide not to allow any Indians or Chinese immigrate to US. No objections there from my side.
Tony Collins
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 435
Well Joe and Stephen, it's called capitialism and i'm not that keen on it myself.
Tony
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Stephen Pride:

So, the bottom line is that in order to compete, we must lower our standard of living. And not just IT workers, but just about every other worker whose job could be offshored (which is a probably a large majority of the middle class). Over time, our economy would deflate due to numerous factors (less consumer spending, less tax base, and so on) and the labor costs would finally reach a point of equilibrium between the USA and competing countries. I just wonder what our country's infrastructure would look like then ... perhaps India?

Stephen,
I am not talking about offshoring. Joe was talking about "visa holders" not having mortgage payments.. that is true but they have rent payments. So if an American is paying $1500 per month towards his mortgage, a visa holder still has to pay $700 - $800 towards his rent. The American has the option of moving to a rented place and lowering his expense.. Yes! that does lower the standard of living but that is not what the original argument was about.
Yes deflation would occur and infrastructure etc. would suffer but that is the effect of capitalism without checks and balances.
Stephen Pride
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 14, 2000
Posts: 121
Originally posted by Tony Collins:
Well Joe and Stephen, it's called capitialism and i'm not that keen on it myself.
Tony

I agree. I was shedding light on the reality of the situation and what it will mean long-term in one instance. One of two things will happen with the mass expulsion of jobs: (1) the American economy will buckle some/alot and deflation will occur, or (2) innovation will continue to spawn new industries leading to a growth, or at least a sustainability, of jobs.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
HOWEVER, the problem is not with H1B people.
Good enough, TT. And if you read all of my posts over the last several months, you'll see that this is my standard position: my problem is with visa abusers, not visa holders.
The only time I get a little upset with visa holders is when people like Ashok insist they are replacing "inefficient, unqualified" Americans. This may have been the case at some time in the distant past, but is simply not true today. The visa holders are not smarter, not more qualified, not harder working than the Americans they are displacing. They are just cheaper.
I think that at this point you and I are probably about as close to agreement as we can get, so I'd prefer to leave the discussion here and thus avoid any more rancorous argument. Peace!
Joe
Stephen Pride
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 14, 2000
Posts: 121
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
The visa holders are not smarter, not more qualified, not harder working than the Americans they are displacing. They are just cheaper.

Joe -
Here is an interesting story that could back your argument. Interesting how when offered the chance, American workers will work for lower wages, contrary to a lot of thinking out there today.
U.S. Programmers at Overseas Salaries
[ January 13, 2004: Message edited by: Stephen Pride ]
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
I forgot to add one thing. H1Bs contribute to social security equally but DO NOT draw any money from it. So now tell, me how are they competing on a lower cost of living?
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006

Then you haven't done much research there, because visa programs are draining the American economy, wiping out hundreds of thousands of jobs every year, wiping out billions of dollars of income with pretty much no return to the American taxpayer

Boy! Where do I start.. visa programs are wiping out hundreds of thousands of jobs every year?? I thought visa programs existed to create jobs. Now the jobs created may not be going to American citizens but the visas are not "wiping out jobs". "Wiping out billions of dollars of income"??? Do you think visa holders work for free? They are required to be paid atleast $44,000 or something like that. "No return to American taxpayer"??? Do you know that visa holders pay Federal, State and County taxes. They also pay Social Security / Medicare which they never see if they return back home.

Why exactly does our wealth now need to be spread out amongst the rest of the world? I find this especially egregious since parts of the world can't even control their own population growth. Is it the job of America to support the standard of living of the world, regardless of how many people they choose to put on the planet?

Classic anti-immigrant rhetoric, just worded a little differently. The actual anti-immigrant statement would be something like "Why exactly does out wealth now need to be shared with other people? Our population has stabilized, we dont need to be supporting people from other parts of the world who want to come here because their part of the world is over-crowded"
I dont need to go beyond this to illustrate my earlier point.

You equate immigration with H- and L- visas. It's simply not the same. There is no movement involved, these people don't plan to stay in this country, they are purely and simply draining wealth

More of the same..

And it is theft, because we are the ones who built this economy that can afford to pay such rates, not the visa workers or the outsourcers who are sucking the lifeblood out of the Aemrican economy[b]. Once that economy is gone, and [b]everybody is "equal", then what,

I have highlighted some of the statements that give more evidence. Who is "we"?? Is not people who came here seeking oppurtunities? Be it through visas or green cards? What less contribution do they make? They pay the same amount of taxes, the same amount of social security etc. In return they do not take welfare, they do not take medicare benefits and they are still "sucking" the lifeline out of the economy??

For example, let's take a young man in an underprivileged neighborhood, like your example Map. He watches you day in and day out making money and building yourself a nice lifestyle. One day he decides it's not fair that you have everything and he has nothing. So what that you have worked hard all your life for your things - he didn't have the opportunity to do so! You had college! You had good parents, and he didn't! You have two TV sets and he has none!

This is a bad example of how visas work. Lets modify this example to reflect the truth a little better.
A young man lives in an underprivileged neighborhood. He likes your cosy lifestyle a lot and is willing to give more of his work in return for an oppurtunity to enjoy the same lifestyle. So your aunt who's house it is decides that she can get a nice person to stay with her and also get some work around the house done in return for the accomodation. So she lets the person in and now you have to share your room and therefore you are pissed!
Terimaki Tojay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 165
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
HOWEVER, the problem is not with H1B people.
The visa holders are not smarter, not more qualified, not harder working than the Americans they are displacing. They are just cheaper.
Joe

That's the bit I don't get. How in the world are they cheaper??? I'm a s/w profession and my salary is probably higher than any other person in my group. If I switch a job today, I could get even more because of the industry I am in. How am I cheaper??
Can you show me your math and prove that they are cheaper for a company? I can prove that they are not. Here is my math: My billing rate is $80 an hour. This is what my client company pays to my employer. And I can assure you that this is the highest billing rate that it pays to any consultant.
Agreed, it does not have any HR costs. But how much does that cost? More than 80K per annum?? Even if you account for 80K of HR costs(which is ridiculously high), the salaray of a regular employee would have to be 80K to match $80 per hr rate.
Now you tell me how am I cheaper to the company??
Ashok Mash
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
HOWEVER, the problem is not with H1B people.
The only time I get a little upset with visa holders is when people like Ashok insist they are replacing "inefficient, unqualified" Americans. This may have been the case at some time in the distant past, but is simply not true today.
Joe

I didn't say that, and your bring it up over and again as if I did, which is quite misleading. I sincerely hope you will not do so in future. Thanks in advance!
Thanks.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
This is a friendly reminder form your moderator that we're dangerously close to crossing the line between heated debate and bitter ranting. Please consider the wording of your posts carefully.
--Mark
 
It is sorta covered in the JavaRanch Style Guide.
 
subject: US tech majors defend outsourcing
 
Similar Threads
Naidu effect on Indian markets (financial)
India Money
disturbing ( to me )
Reg H1B
Chinese too "expensive"? Wal-Mart eyes Indians