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Discrimination or overreaction?

Jon McDonald
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Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 167
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
I am aware that reverse discrimination exists. Remember, I worked for FedEx, during school. In the month that I was hired, FedEx hired me, and about 99 African Americans. I am not lying. My friend who was White was turned away because he was told that he was too overqualified. Yet they hired people, well I won�t even dwell. Even I who worked at FedEx, had a hard time, getting hired. However, a friend of mine, pulled some strings to get me hired. He actually had to jump several obstacles just to get me an interview. Yet they were hiring complete strangers, just because the hiring staff was African-Americans and the applicants were also the same race. It�s as if FedEx was on a rampage to hire as many African-Americans as possible.

This may not be discrimination at all. When things right after the dotcom bust got really bad for me, I applied for a job at UPS. I just needed money, the one thing they kept harping on was that why would someone with my skills want to work in the loading area. They were really reluctant to higher me, and for good reason. We both new that as soon as something better came along, I would quit. Most of the other people who were applying were either black or Hispanic. These people got hired, not because of their race, but because they didn't have a lot of education and UPS knew they would be much less likely to leave than I would.
This is the same thing that happens to my friends who have applied for temp work as admnistrative assistants. Two that come to mind have Bachelors degrees from Stanford and Purdue. The problem is that when they put all of this stuff in their resume, it is like saying to the employeer "This work is actually beneath me, but I will do it because I need the money. However, as soon as I find something better, I'm gone.". They couldn't figure out why they weren't getting calls back until I brought it up with them and suggested that they change their resume.
Jon


SCJP<br/>
"I study politics and war that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting poetry and music."<br />--John Adams
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Jon McDonald:


This is the same thing that happens to my friends who have applied for temp work as admnistrative assistants. Two that come to mind have Bachelors degrees from Stanford and Purdue. The problem is that when they put all of this stuff in their resume, it is like saying to the employeer "This work is actually beneath me, but I will do it because I need the money. However, as soon as I find something better, I'm gone.". They couldn't figure out why they weren't getting calls back until I brought it up with them and suggested that they change their resume.
Jon

That actually makes sense. I never looked at things from that perspective.
[ April 26, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]

-- <br />4 8 15 16 23 42
Jon McDonald
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Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 167
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
Hello Jon McDonald,
What should I do, what am I doing wrong? I know that it is a tough job market, but what am I missing?

I was in your situation recently. What I found that I had to do was to open my job search beyond jobs that were strictly web/java developer jobs. I started searching for jobs that were not solely web/java developer jobs. Perhaps web developer/sys admin or java developer/dba. I found it to be much easier to find jobs based on this criteria than just looking for java programmer positions.
As far as hiring Hispanics in Chicago, I have seen two sides to this. On one hand, at my previous employer, there seemed to be a big push for hiring Hispanics, so much so that if a non managerial, white collar job opened up, there would be a good chance that the person to fill it would be Hispanic. Some of the old timers there said that they were just the new "flavor of the mont". On the other hand, I have seen VERY few Hispanics in any area of IT short of basic PC repair.
You may be getting discriminated against because of your name (see my previous posting for a reference to this behavior with regards to people with black sounding names) or you may not. Even if you are, that doesn't mean that it will be impossible to find a job, just that it will take more effort. It isn't fair but it is reality. I'm sure, growing up in Chicago, you already know this. Short of suing some of the employers you suspect as discriminating towards you, you really have no other choice but to quit or charge on.
Jon
Don Stadler
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Joined: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 451
My experience is that black guys and Hispanic guys are as rare as hen's teeth in IT. There are a disproportionate number of Chinese and Indians as well as Muslims of various nationalities (Pakistanis, Iranians, etc). I've seen more black women in IT jobs than men.
The proportion of caucasians seems heavily skewed toward males in the geek jobs. This is balanced out somewhat by there being a disproportionate number of women in management roles. Disproportionate compared to the number of women developers that is.
I'm not sure what this says exactly. I think part of it is that development is not a place where you can hide very well. If you're not good it's absolutely obvious and you tend to drop out and go into something else. The problem is that the sort of geek communities which develop at universities tend to be asian, caucasian, and male. So that is where the developers tend to come from. But it may also lead to the kind of stereotype which may have hurt Mr. Torres here. He doesn't fit the stereotype. In bad times that can be very bad. As people like Tim Holloway and I have learned to our cost, developers aged over 40 also don't fit the stereotype well. Then you have to try harder and think creatively about how to get around the problem.
[ April 26, 2004: Message edited by: Don Stadler ]
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Don Stadler:
My experience is that black guys and Hispanic guys are as rare as hen's teeth in IT.
The proportion of caucasians seems heavily skewed toward males in the geek jobs.
The problem is that the sort of geek communities which develop at universities tend to be asian, caucasian, and male. So that is where the developers tend come from. But it may also lead to the kind of stereotype which may have hirt Mr. Torres here. He doesn't fit the stereotype. In bad times that can be very bad.

Don Stadler's post, seems accurate.
The IT department, that I used to work for, was predominantly White, Asian, and Indian. As a result, my co-workers gave me a hard time. They thrived on exposing my inexperience with the material, even though I was in a college-recruit program that lasted 6 months. On the other hand, they were very accommodating with the other college-recruits.
I guess it�s my own fault for having gone into IT, even though I love this field.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
The Hispanic Population and Information Technology
Perhaps you can be a pioneering Hispanic role model in IT if there have been little before you ?


Prior research indicates that although the Hispanic population is increasing in absolute and percentage representation in terms of the overall U.S. population every year, it has been found to be decreasing in terms of its representation within the Information Technology workforce (Garcia, 1999). According to the Information Technology Association of America, �Hispanics are significantly underrepresented . . . at 5.4 percent of the total IT workforce, or 3.4 percent of the IT professionals� (Bennett, 1999, p. 3).

Don Stadler
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 451
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:

The IT department, that I used to work for, was predominantly White, Asian, and Indian. As a result, my co-workers gave me a hard time. They thrived on exposing my inexperience with the material, even though I was in a college-recruit program that lasted 6 months. On the other hand, they were very accommodating with the other college-recruits.

I'm of at least two minds on this, perhaps three. Twenty years ago I would have denied that racial discrimination existed in any real form in the IT profession. Today I've changed my mind, though I don't think it has more practical effect than other forms of discrimination (such as age discrimination or sex discrimination). I also think luck has a much larger role than people acknowledge. Many people with impeccable racial, sexual, and age 'credentials' remain unemployed in this market. It may be an advantage in some situations, but so can being married and hispanic under the right circumstances.
There is a thought that every job seeker needs to hold in their mind -
You only have to get lucky once! You only have to score once.
My feeling from your posts is that you are being way too passive in the way you're going about your search, Jesse. You are visiting websites and dropping off copies of your resume. Or sending copies off to recruiters. Right now all of these places are getting inundated with hundreds of resumes. At most 5% of them get read the rest are binned.
You need to overhaul your job campaign to get yourself noticed. When I was in the job hunt I made it a rule not to send out or post a resume without a follow-up call. I kept calling until I either got someone to dig up my CV or I gave up (usually after the 5th fruitless call).
What this did is forced the recruiter (mostly) to dig up and look at my CV. Often I would have to resend, then follow up with another call. But they read my CV. Having done that much I usually was submitted to the customer if I was qualified. Usually one of no more than 3 from that recruiter and perhaps no more than 15 CV's in total for the listed position. Frequently much less than that. Much better odds than hundreds to one against. Toward the end of the process I was averaging one interview a week and getting into the final two or three every time. I emphasized my age and maturity as an actual advantage where it seemed appropriate.
I deeply recommend that you check out and read a book titled Guerilla Tactics in the Job Market by Tom Jackson. It is out of print but Amazon has used copies available and it should be at your public library also. It is the best book I've ever read about finding a job, especially if you're not a 'perfect' applicant (don't fit the stereotypes). Pay particular attention to the section about 'informational interviewing'. It's the best way to get in the door when you're not perfect, asking for information rather than a job.
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Thanks Don Stadler for your book suggestion. I will order from Amazon, and hope for the best.
Thanks again for your advice.
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
I know there is discrimination out there, and I don't deny it's a problem when you're hit by it.
What I DO say is that discrimination works both ways, yet it's only considered a problem when minorities (who in some places are no longer that except in name) suffer from it.
When caucasian people reject Asians or blacks they're persecuted as racist, yet when a black or Asian person rejects a caucasian person because of the colour of his skin or his accent noone thinks twice about it.
That's also why I say to make use of your Hispanic background if that's what it takes to get a job.
If the recruiter is Hispanic too, he'll be more inclined to have happy thoughts if you don't hide your origins.
If he's not, go with the flow and play the race card if you can. I'm not suggesting you go to court and sue the hell out of anyone turning you down (that only works against you as your name goes around as a troublemaker).


42
Jon McDonald
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Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 167
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
I know there is discrimination out there, and I don't deny it's a problem when you're hit by it.
What I DO say is that discrimination works both ways, yet it's only considered a problem when minorities (who in some places are no longer that except in name) suffer from it.
When caucasian people reject Asians or blacks they're persecuted as racist, yet when a black or Asian person rejects a caucasian person because of the colour of his skin or his accent noone thinks twice about it.

Wouldn't the fact that you are bringing it up mean at least someone thinks twice about it . The way I see it, practically every race thinks that they are getting shafted in the US. To some extent they are all right. However, it becomes much harder to say who is being discriminated against more right now. I can certainly say that I'm being discriminated against a hell of a lot less than my father or grandfather were.
Even in the same city, A black man raised in a upper middle class family, with an Ivy league education probably faces a completely different type of discrimination than a black man raised in poverty. On one hand I know a white woman who experienced a definate case of reverse discrimination. On the other hand, statistics show that white women are disproporationately the largest benificiaries of affirmative action. This whole issue of discrimination in the US is just so complex .
And to Jeroen:
I'm always surprised when europeans talk about race problems in their countries. The way you guys get projected in the U.S. media, I never new there were any black people in Holland to begin with .
Jon
[ April 27, 2004: Message edited by: Jon McDonald ]
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Racism is a very complex issue that often is swept under the rug. In Chicago, racism is evident in the segregated neighborhoods. So much that if a non-White moves into a Yuppie Neighborhood, he/she will be viewed as an outsider. In other neighborhoods, if a Black moves in, crosses will be placed in front of his/her home. So Jeroen, don�t turn this into discrimination against Whites. Studies have consistently proved that Whites, when compared with Blacks, always receive more job offers. Sure it is not o.k. for America to fill the disproportionate gap with mostly Black candidates for Government jobs. I am pretty sure that discrimination exists against Whites, but not at the levels of the reverse. I am not saying that either discrimination is o.k.
In summary, racism / discrimination in America is very complex. I agree with Jon McDonald that racism in America is very complex. It happens to everyone, including Whites. Nevertheless, it is not as vigorous as in the past. Even though my family�s roots started in the U.S during the late 1890s, I am still viewed as an outsider because I am non-White. Yet, if a European White were to arrive today to the U.S, he/she would be more accepted than me, even though I, my parents, and grandparents were all born in the U.S.
[ April 27, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]
Jon McDonald
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Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 167
Jesse,
Keep in mind that Jeroen is talking about his country, the Netherlands, not the United States. As I have never been there (and until recently, didn't know many blacks live there) I will reserve my judgements of his comments.
Jon
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Jon McDonald:
Jesse,
Keep in mind that Jeroen is talking about his country, the Netherlands, not the United States.
Jon

Oops, I had no idea that Jeroen is in the Netherlands. Sorry Jeroen, I thought that you were in the States.
Sadanand Murthy
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Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 382
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
Even though my family�s roots started in the U.S during the late 1890s, I am still viewed as an outsider because I am non-White. Yet, if a European White were to arrive today to the U.S, he/she would be more accepted than me, even though I, my parents, and grandparents were all born in the U.S.
[ April 27, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]

Not to hijack this thread, but just as a tangent:
When the topic of immigrants comes up in US (this is my personal experience) many, if not most, white people in US (perhaps even blacks) think only of Asians (including those from the Indian sub-continent), Mexicans, Arabs, etc. They never equate immigrants with Europeans. When, during such a conversation I mentioned that Germans, Italians, Brits can also be immigrants, there was a slightly delayed & puzzled "oh yeah, that's right".


Ever Existing, Ever Conscious, Ever-new Bliss
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
I am a South Floridian by adoption and with respect to:
"Many positions here in South Florida have been openly advertised indicating that you will not even be considered unless you are very fluently bi-lingual.."
...discrimination is the last of the motives. Business necessity is the prime one.
You see, there is a huge Hispanic population with money here (as opposed to Hispanic populations in other states) and the bottom line is that no matter what your native language is, we only accept American dollars in payment. So it doesn't matter what language you speak, I would like to sell you my services in whatever language you prefer.
Down here, big difference between "J2EE, EJBs, Servlets, JSPs" and the same plus "fully bilingual, Spanish/English".
It's one more important (for here) skill in your resume.


Tony Alicea
Senior Java Web Application Developer, SCPJ2, SCWCD
frank davis
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Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
Tony : I am a South Floridian by adoption and with respect to:
"Many positions here in South Florida have been openly advertised indicating that you will not even be considered unless you are very fluently bi-lingual.."
Tony :
...discrimination is the last of the motives. Business necessity is the prime one.

From the perspective/experience of many in the black and white communities
there is the opinion that business necessity is not always the reason. As one example http://browardschools.com/departments/employment/pdf/aspt_042304.pdf (link will expire soon) it clearly states "Bilingual is preffered" yet I know personally as a fact (former employee who held that position) there is zero need for bilingualism for the internal customers of Broward county schools. Elsewhere on the site you will note the boast, "Our track record in employing and promoting minorities in our school system far exceeds state and national standards." (http://browardschools.com/departments/employment/). This is a true statement, they do hire a disproportionately greater share of minorities and much lesser share of whites. This type of discrimination is something to be openly proud of however(?).
I know you mentioned business necessity as a reason for bilingualism and that I gave a government example, but its also the case that the IT depts of most companies have internal customers who speak english fluently. Those IT depts and government employers account for most of the IT jobs in South Florida. As a native South Floridean of nearly 40 years, my years of experience in a variety of employment situations has caused me to question the belief that the bi-lingualism requirement is truly a business necessity for most of the IT positions.
frank davis
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Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
Racism is a very complex issue that often is swept under the rug. In Chicago, racism is evident in the segregated neighborhoods.

Yes, a complex issue because not all of the segregation can be attributed to the actions of whites. Often people simply like to associate more with those of the same culture, so segregation results from the actions of the minorities. This is especuially the case of more recent immigrants who lack english language skills, although it can and does occur with any group with shared customs and traditions. For example, in South Florida there is a very large Jewish retirement community. The Jewish retirees are not randomly and evenly dispered throughout the US or even in Florida or even in South Florida. They are simply a minority group that has made choices of association.

Studies have consistently proved that Whites, when compared with Blacks, always receive more job offers.

There was a famous study last year reported in all the major news media that "proved" that applicants with "black" names got less interviews than those with "white" names. Somewhere on this site there was a thread devoted to it. Being curious, I checked out the details of the actual study. What I found was that the most "black" name actually got more interviews than the average "white" name. Weird how the same data can mean 2 completely opposite things to different people... Anyhow, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all the studies are wrong, its just that there is a seed of suspecion in me that the problem may not be as large as is claimed. Maybe the problem is simply that I don't associate with bigoted people perhaps...
[ April 27, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ][/QB]
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
This thread, please look carefully, indicates my hatred for any kind of discrimination, may it be Whites being discriminated or non-Whites.
America�s attempt to hire minorities for government work is still far less than American private corporations� discriminatory practices. Yes, Florida Government jobs seek to mainly hire Bilingual speaking workers. However, the fact of the matter is that these numbers are dwarfed in comparison to the disproportionate number of times that minorities are shunned for corporate private jobs. Come anywhere in the U.S into an office. Sure you will see about 1% minorities (non Asian), but most of the workers are White.
Read this thread carefully for my proof. I have applied for the same positions as my friends have. On one hand, I never received a call, not one. On the other hand, my White and Asian friends received at the minimum a phone interview, and most actually received offers.
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Your comment over immigrants choosing to segregate themselves is baseless. Let�s put things into perspective. The times that I have walked into fancy restaurants, I never have received the same service as Whites. The waiter is not too often friendly, courteous, or accommodating as with White customers. It�s not only at restaurants that Whites receive better treatment. For that reason, many minorities tend to remain in neighborhoods with their peers. I actually know of a neighborhood, a nice one actually, where anyone who isn�t White, is pulled over by cops and treated as a criminal. It is a predominantly White neighborhood. I actually used to live there. I once was pulled over and was told by the cop that I should go back to my neighborhood and that if I filed a complain, he would come looking for me. I actually did file a complain with the city. Unfortunately, the complaint went nowhere. At the time, I couldn�t afford a lawyer.
Additionally in many suburbs in Chicago, Hispanics are always pulled-over by cops, just because they are Hispanics. And in other Chicago neighborhoods, Blacks are always pulled over. Sure some will argue that most Hispanics always drive drunk and most Blacks are criminals. But, that would be the same as pulling over all Middle-Easterners, just because they are Middle-Easterners.
frank davis
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Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Jon McDonald:

As far as hiring Hispanics in Chicago, I have seen two sides to this. On one hand, at my previous employer, there seemed to be a big push for hiring Hispanics, so much so that if a non managerial, white collar job opened up, there would be a good chance that the person to fill it would be Hispanic. Some of the old timers there said that they were just the new "flavor of the mont". On the other hand, I have seen VERY few Hispanics in any area of IT short of basic PC repair.

Jon



Even very few Hispanics in the IT field may not mean there is discrimination. It could be that even those few were actually proof that there was no discrimination if there were even a lesser amount that were CS majors (or IT trained in some way). ( Jesse suggested there were few CS majors). I'm not saying Jesse wasn't discriminated against, but urge caution against the temptation to over generalize since I have seen the example as noted above where minorities are favored and it is official and un-official policy at many large organizations.
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by herb slocomb:Yes, a complex issue because not all of the segregation can be attributed to the actions of whites. Often people simply like to associate more with those of the same culture, so segregation results from the actions of the minorities. This is especuially the case of more recent immigrants who lack english language skills, although it can and does occur with any group with shared customs and traditions. For example, in South Florida there is a very large Jewish retirement community. The Jewish retirees are not randomly and evenly dispered throughout the US or even in Florida or even in South Florida. They are simply a minority group that has made choices of association.

Jewish people are technically White. Their desire to remain in close proximity to their peers is no different than White Irish Americans to remain in close proximity to one another.
[ April 27, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]
[ April 27, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]
frank davis
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Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:

America�s attempt to hire minorities for government work is still far less than American private corporations� discriminatory practices.

Jesse, I'm not actually disagreeing with you on many of these issues, just making some points because I think it needs to be made to have a balanced discussion. But here where I live, the school board and county are the largest employing organizations (almost 30,000 and 7,000 respectively). The larger private companies, here and nationwide, all have affirmative action policies and do recruit minorities even if for no other reason than to avoid lawsuits. Hiring a minority, even if not the best candidate, can make good business sense.



Read this thread carefully for my proof. I have applied for the same positions as my friends have. On one hand, I never received a call, not one. On the other hand, my White and Asian friends received at the minimum a phone interview, and most actually received offers.

Do you have exactly the same skill sets as your friends?
Did you apply at the same time for the same positions? (some inside info about HR at one of my prior employers revealed they never sifted through all the resumes, just the first 10 that looked acceptable).
Read my posts carefully, I am not disputing your personal discrimination claim since I cannot even begin to have any info that would dispute it.
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
[qb]
Jewish people are technically White. Their desire to remain in close proximity to their peers is no different than White Irish Americans to remain in close proximity to one another.
[ April 27, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]
[ April 27, 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Torres ]

So only Jewish and White Irish Americans desire to remain with their peers?

Or can we say it is a universal human tendacy ? (But if you admit that you can't claim all segration is the work of white people)
frank davis
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Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
Your comment over immigrants choosing to segregate themselves is baseless. Let�s put things into perspective. The times that I have walked into fancy restaurants, I never have received the same service as Whites. The waiter is not too often friendly, courteous, or accommodating as with White customers. It�s not only at restaurants that Whites receive better treatment. For that reason, many minorities tend to remain in neighborhoods with their peers.

So there are no Russian enclaves in NY? No Chinatowns in California?
I've been at restaurants/stores where blacks and hispanics were treated better I, not that it proves anything, since anectdotal evidence seldom does.
frank davis
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Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:

Not to hijack this thread, but just as a tangent:
When the topic of immigrants comes up in US (this is my personal experience) many, if not most, white people in US (perhaps even blacks) think only of Asians (including those from the Indian sub-continent), Mexicans, Arabs, etc. They never equate immigrants with Europeans. When, during such a conversation I mentioned that Germans, Italians, Brits can also be immigrants, there was a slightly delayed & puzzled "oh yeah, that's right".

But the number of legal and illegal Hispanics alone completely and totally dwarfs the number of European immigrants. Perhaps also Indians (including temp workers, H1-B, etc). So perhaps it is not totally unexapected.
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Once thing is obviously clear here herb, your ardent antagonism towards Hispanics. Your posts clearly state this with your chronic posts over how Hispanics are better treated. Additionally, what the hell do Illegal immigrants have to do with anything. I think that it is uneducated for someone to bring Illegal immigrants into a job discussion. You see it is that close minded discrimination that is the problem, be it from Whites or not. Even though my roots are deeply embedded in the US for more than one hundred years, I am not considered and / or treated as an American. Furthermore, it is a cheap shot.
Again I say, read my messages carefully before you make unwarranted comments. I never said that only Irish Americans and Jewish people live in same neighborhoods. I was just making a point to your comment, in which you said that Jewish people are a minority. I merely rebuffed your comment by saying that presently, Jews are considered White. Also, if a neighborhood is 90 � 95 % White, why don�t you argue that White people choose to remain separated from minorities. Finally, if you have problems with Hispanics, deal with them directly.
Maybe in your Florida are Hispanics better treated, but wake up and realize that Hispanics only account for 13 percent of the population; thus, most of America is White.
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by herb slocomb:

But the number of legal and illegal Hispanics alone completely and totally dwarfs the number of European immigrants. Perhaps also Indians (including temp workers, H1-B, etc). So perhaps it is not totally unexapected.


White Europeans were viewed as immigrants at the turn of the last century. Today they aren�t because they are immediately accepted into mainstream America unlike Blacks and Hispanics.
Again, what the hell do illegals have to do with jobs. Is your fervent irritation towards Hispanics, making you take cheap shots?
frank davis
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 12, 2001
Posts: 1479
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
Once thing is obviously clear here herb, your ardent antagonism towards Hispanics. Your posts clearly state this with your chronic posts over how Hispanics are better treated.

LOL. I have no antagonism against Hispanics at all. I enjoy their culture and enjoy their company (last Friday, Saturday, Sunday spent entirely with Hispanic girlfriend I've known for 13 years and who almost became my wife). Please , you don't know me at all personally. A person can make posts as what he regards as facts and not be antagonistic. I simply respect Reality no matter what form it takes. I simply report the reality I have encountered as you have. However, I do not make claims that you are antagonistic to all whites. That's an important difference.
You are geting touchy on this issue so this will be my last post to avoid further offense to you. Although you titled this post "Discrimination or overreaction ?" it is clear you do not want any evidence that would tend to lessen your viewpoint of discrimination.

Additionally, what the hell do Illegal immigrants have to do with anything. I think that it is uneducated for someone to bring Illegal immigrants into a job discussion. You see it is that close minded discrimination that is the problem, be it from Whites or not. Even though my roots are deeply embedded in the US for more than one hundred years, I am not considered and / or treated as an American. Furthermore, it is a cheap shot.

Uneducated ? Cheap shot ? I was directly responding to another poster regarding the perception of immigrants as not being European. The majority of immigrants are Hispanic and a very, very sizable number are illegal. Looking at both numbers is necessary because of the sheer number of illegals and because public perception (the issue of the post I was reponding to) is influenced by news of such large numbers . Hence, in any discussion of immigration it is legite and even required to discuss the total number of immigrants (see today's frontpage Yahoo news at http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040427/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_rush_to_america).
You are considered an American and treated as an American (by me no less) so your claim is not 100% true.

Again I say, read my messages carefully before you make unwarranted comments. I never said that only Irish Americans and Jewish people live in same neighborhoods. I was just making a point to your comment, in which you said that Jewish people are a minority. I merely rebuffed your comment by saying that presently, Jews are considered White. Also, if a neighborhood is 90 � 95 % White, why don�t you argue that White people choose to remain separated from minorities..

I believe my statements are being misrepresented since I did not say you said such statements, I merely asked questions which you will not answer because they make you uncomfortable. I thought we agreed that discrimination is complex, yet you want to make it a simple black and white issue (figuratively) ? There can be many components contributing to why there is segregation, yet you refuse to admit the reality of some of them. That's another reason I will not re-visit this post (to your relief I am sure).


Finally, if you have problems with Hispanics, deal with them directly.

You are joking right ?

Maybe in your Florida are Hispanics better treated, but wake up and realize that Hispanics only account for 13 percent of the population; thus, most of America is White.

Yeh, I know most of America falls into your categorization of "white" (that categorization issue is another thread), but in California, the most populous state, it is not really legit to consider to consider Hispanics a minority nor where I grow up and live. Simply respect my reality as I respected yours.
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by herb slocomb:

You are geting touchy on this issue so this will be my last post to avoid further offense to you. Although you titled this post "Discrimination or overreaction ?" it is clear you do not want any evidence that would tend to lessen your viewpoint of discrimination.


Again, in my posts I don�t deny that discrimination exists towards Whites also. In fact, I offer examples as to how Caucasian friends of mine were victims of reverse discrimination. In fact, I condemn discrimination of any form.
Yes, you say that Hispanics are the majority in California. However, they all live on the same places. The moment that they move into predominantly White suburbs, they are discriminated against in one way or another. Is this the reason that they remain in the same places? I don�t know. But see how even you are categorizing all Hispanics as being the same when in fact we are different.
Matt Cao
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Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 715
Hi Jesse,
If it helps, learn to communicate more effectively. I do not meant your English is No Good. It's a lot better than myself. Well, the majority of you folks are better than myself.
When I came to US from China, I did not even speak English. I was the subject of teasing and bullies by those native kids, up until high school, I sent a football captain to the hospital for broken ribs. Of course, the school lost the championship game for that season. Everyone then known not to piss me off again. But my handicap in linguistic did not stopping me from obtain the Engineer Assistant job from the local city. I went on from there. I even have advanced degree in Electronics Engineering.
I discovered then it was not how fluency you were in a certain language making you an effective speaker. How did you convey the message to the intended audience all matter. Your persona also played a role in this. Your physique, your appearance, etc.
Last two years, I had a guy with last name Diamond. If I remembered correctly, he claimed that he is Hispanic. He graduated and did not even have paid experience under his belt. He was so panic. He relocated back and forth between Philly and South Carolina. Somehow, he tracked my name and sent me his resume and a brief conversation, I found out the guy was sharp. He did some Web gigs while attending college. They were cash gigs, so he did not mentioned into the resume fear of IRS. Those were kiddy projects. He also was the project lead for the school senior project. Also the most critical of all, he forgot to mention that he assisted the professor, in grading and taught CS101/111 (the lab one). I did an impromptu interview with him, not sure whether he digged it/not. But he said all the things that I like to hear. I did recommending him to relocate anywhere and encouraged him not to worry much about unemployment stigma. After 9/11, a lot of people unemployed for years.
He is now one of the top players of SAIC in Washington DC.

Those are the two stories, I wrap into one. Hope it helps you in some ways.
Regards,
MCao
[ April 27, 2004: Message edited by: Matt Cao ]
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:

Oops, I had no idea that Jeroen is in the Netherlands. Sorry Jeroen, I thought that you were in the States.

It happens. Sometimes I think I'm in France when our political masters are snapping to attention at the latest orders from Brussels (uh, Paris)
And to Jeroen:
I'm always surprised when europeans talk about race problems in their countries. The way you guys get projected in the U.S. media, I never new there were any black people in Holland to begin with .

Unsurprising. The image projected of Europe in the US is one of Dutch girls in wooden shoes distributing cheese at tradeshows and Germans in Lederhosen drinking beer.
For those functions natives are chosen for the obvious reason that in historical context there would be only caucasians in such clothes.
That image was never reality, and even less so now. While wooden shoes were quite common among farmers (and still are, they're better in muddy fields than are rubber boots) and Lederhosen were worn by some Germans always, they were never common.
Today, some 30-35% of the population of most major cities is black or Asian (there's no distinction with Italians or Hispanics here like in the US for obvious reasons that those ARE native Europeans).
Exact racial distribution is in large part due to the historic ties between a country or region and (former) colonies, and in part due to where foreign workers came from in the 1960s (mainly Turkey and Morocco for the Netherlands).
Racial problems are a big taboo for open discussion as well, especially reverse discrimination (euphamistically called "positive discrimination" here).
Anyone daring to say reverse discrimination is wrong and leads to resentment towards minorities (it does, bigtime) is likely to be branded a Nazi and from then on he will not get any time on radio or TV and his writings will be shunned by the printed press.
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
Your comment over immigrants choosing to segregate themselves is baseless. Let�s put things into perspective. The times that I have walked into fancy restaurants, I never have received the same service as Whites. The waiter is not too often friendly, courteous, or accommodating as with White customers.

Noone forces Chinese to go live in Chinatown.
Noone forces blacks into black neighbourhoods.
Maybe they like it better there?
As to restaurant service, it works both ways.
When I enter a Chinese restaurant I will probably get slower service than a Chinese.
I have experienced this myself regularly in a previous job which was in a company owned by some Indonesian people.
When we went to a Chinese or Indonesian restaurant with them the service was better than when going to the same restaurant without them.
Speaking Malay to the waiters and owners might have been a big part of it.
Once in Brussels we (speaking Dutch) were completely ignored by waiters in several restaurants (Brussels is in the French part of Belgium, segregation there is worse than what you have ever seen in the US except on language).
When as an experiment we went into another restaurant speaking English we got prompt and friendly service UNTIL we started speaking Dutch...
Don Stadler
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 451
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
White Europeans were viewed as immigrants at the turn of the last century. Today they aren�t because they are immediately accepted into mainstream America unlike Blacks and Hispanics.

Jesse, it isn't quite a simple as that. I'm half-Irish, and believe me the Irish weren't 'immediately accepted' into 'mainstream America'. It actually took more than 100 years for that to happen and the process wasn't complete until Kennedy was elected President in 1960.
The Irish didn't begin entering the US in major numbers until the 1830's and there was a crest of Irish immigration during the Irish Famine between 1844 and 1850. A major political party was formed in 1848 (the 'Know-Nothings') on the single issue of opposing immigration and excluding immigrants from any political power and influence, decent jobs, etc. Not limited to the Irish but the Irish were the 'poster children' for the movement.
Irish and Italian Americans were popularly regarded as stupid, uneducated, politically corrupt, and criminal, a perception which remained in significant part until the 1960's.
Without seeking to inject myself into the argument that Herb and you are having, may I advise you to attack your problem as a personal one for the time being? At least until you have solved your immediate problem of unemployment?
As I'm sure you are aware you cannot solve the problem of anti-hispanic discrimination any more than I can solve ageism (discrimination against old farts). What you can do is find potential employers who aren't anti-hispanic, or who (at very least) are open to persuasion otherwise. Once you find employment you can attack discrimination more generally. If you succeed professionally you will be a living argument against racism. And you may be in a position to help others succeed as well.
Racism exists. So does ageism (which may be at least as difficult to overcome based on what I see). But it can be overcome. There are many people who will hire hispanics and old farts like myself. Our job is to get as good as we can be and then go find those people.
[ April 28, 2004: Message edited by: Don Stadler ]
Don Stadler
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Joined: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 451
Once in Brussels we (speaking Dutch) were completely ignored by waiters in several restaurants (Brussels is in the French part of Belgium, segregation there is worse than what you have ever seen in the US except on language).
When as an experiment we went into another restaurant speaking English we got prompt and friendly service UNTIL we started speaking Dutch...

I had a similar experience in the Sud Tirol, Jeroen. I speak social Italian but the Tirolese affected not to understand Italian. I learned to start out speaking English (to our mutual miscomprehension). Having established that I wasn't Italian I then found that the Tirolese spoke fluent Italian and we got along together very well.
Jesse Torres
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Discrimination in the workplace is a very sensitive subject. It is the same, regardless if it takes place against minorities or against Whites. I have witnessed discrimination of all sorts against Whites and minorities.
So, herb Slocomb, I�m sorry for my overreaction to your posts. You were just providing your comments and I overreacted. I have to learn how to communicate more effectively. So please accept my apology.
Thanks,
Don Stadler
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 451
Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
Discrimination in the workplace is a very sensitive subject. It is the same, regardless if it takes place against minorities or against Whites. I have witnessed discrimination of all sorts against Whites and minorities.

I'd say a lot depends upon whether the discrimination is individual or institutional. By institutional I mean something like the Jim Crow laws in the South which Martin Luther King helped overturn. A general discrimination against Hispanics or Blacks might qualify as institutional if it was pervasive enough that Blacks or Hispanics have a difficult time being hired at all in a particular profession.
Individual discrimination is deplorable and bad but is also a problem which can be handled by punishment (by the society) and by going elsewhere (for the individual).
Institutional discrimination (think Jim Crow or apartheid) is a whole different can of worms and needs to be handled root and branch.
I suspect there are circumstances between the two states which may be what you're encountering, Jesse. I don't know enough about the situation in Chicago to hold an opinion about which you are facing, though I would hope that a lot of the nonresponse you are getting is due to inattention or other factors rather than discrimination. I'd also wish to think that the discrimination you are encountering is individual rather than institutional. But I don't know that.
One thing you might think about is whether your job hunting techniques are up to snuff. Do you tailor your resume to each position you apply for? Or at least do you have a tailored version for each category of job you apply for? Do you follow up well? Network? Attending meetings of the local Java User groups is a great way of meeting people and learning who is hiring now or may start soon.
If you have room to improve in this sphere consider the possibility that the problem may be in that area rather than discrimination. At least in many cases it may well be true.
Jon McDonald
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Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 167
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

Noone forces Chinese to go live in Chinatown.
Noone forces blacks into black neighbourhoods.
Maybe they like it better there?

You're definately not from Chicago .
In Chicago neighborhoods and suburbs such as Bridgeport and Berwyn, to name a few, a black person moving into there can be subject to HUGE amounts of harrassment. I'm not talking about little Timmy getting called the "N word" at his new school. I'm talking about Timmy getting beaten into a coma for riding his bike through the neighborhood (it's happened). Or having a cross burned on your front lawn. A CROSS! In the '90's, in Illinois. I don't know whether I am more angry or shocked that things like this still happen, and in Chicago! Not Mississsipi, not Alabama, but Chicago.
Those kind of things happen in those neighborhoods. The idea that things like this happen in MY city offends me. The only reason those things don't happen more often is because blacks have been warned by other blacks enough to know not to go into those neighborhoods. I was surprised to find that an African imigrant friend of mine, who had only been in this country a few years, was told early on not to go into those neighborhoods.
But, I think we are drifting a way from the issue of discrimination when applying for jobs so I will return to that topic. Sorry for the digression.
Jon
Jon McDonald
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Joined: Sep 02, 2001
Posts: 167
Originally posted by herb slocomb:
There was a famous study last year reported in all the major news media that "proved" that applicants with "black" names got less interviews than those with "white" names. Somewhere on this site there was a thread devoted to it. Being curious, I checked out the details of the actual study. What I found was that the most "black" name actually got more interviews than the average "white" name. Weird how the same data can mean 2 completely opposite things to different people... Anyhow, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all the studies are wrong, its just that there is a seed of suspecion in me that the problem may not be as large as is claimed. Maybe the problem is simply that I don't associate with bigoted people perhaps...

Do you have any links to the detailed breakdown of that study. I'd like to see what you are talking about. Are you saying that the 1 name considered most black got more than the average of white sounding names? Did the average of black sounding names get more or less interviews than the average of white sounding names? I would really like to see the details of that study. I'll do a search on google, but if you have the link handy, I would love to see it.
Jon
Jesse Torres
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Joined: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 985
Originally posted by Don Stadler:

If you have room to improve in this sphere consider the possibility that the problem may be in that area rather than discrimination. At least in many cases it may well be true.

Thanks for your advice Don. I will change my job search tactics. I actually want to prove that Discrimination is NOT why I haven't found a job.
Thanks again,
Rufus BugleWeed
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Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
Jesse, are you willing to relocate to somewhere where Hispanics are more accepted or less a minority than Chicago? Would you miss cold and snow?
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Discrimination or overreaction?