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McCain, Obama, and Clinton are in favor of increasing the H-1B quota.

Sandip Sankeshwar
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Joined: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 210
Originally posted by Matt Brown:


I worked with so-called "IITers" in my graduate school and was not impressed

[ March 08, 2008: Message edited by: Matt Brown ]

They are best in India.
Apologize for being out of the topic.
arulk pillai
Author
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Joined: May 31, 2007
Posts: 3216
I hire engineers based on four things: 1) raw intelligence, 2) the ability to deal with problems beyond pure technical issues, 3) the ability to communicate with other people (engineers and non-engineers), and 4) someone who is going to tell me I'm wrong and propose alternatives. I have found many developers trained in India to be weak on 2, 3, and 4.


Good observation and I have noticed this too in my experience. Some companies seem to think that they are saving money but loosing money in a longer term due to compromising on quality, delivery lead time etc. The book worm tendency has to change. Thinking outside the square with "What if" scenarios is vital. There are candidates with 2,3 and 4 but relatively less from my limited experience.


if you know Java inside and out, you are a code monkey and you can be replaced by any other code monkey. If you know how to solve problems and can work (e.g. communicate) with others in your company and help them solve their problems using technology, you're less at risk


A few months ago Java Competency Centre development manager approached my project manager suggesting a cheaper resource (almost half the cost) as a replacement since my contract was up for renewal. The project manager knocked back that suggestion quoting that he needed some one who can do more than just coding for this mission critical project. Someone who can concepualize solution from business requirements, pick up gaps in the solution and make recommendations, be pro-active and speak out in the meetings, good understanding of full SDLC, domain knowledge and ability to grasp things quickly, etc.

Having said that, you would not want everyone in the development team to be well-rounded since you can blow out your budget. That is why you have architects/team leads and one or two senior developers to play this high-calibre role while others concentrate on cutting code.


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Jeanne Boyarsky
internet detective
Marshal

Joined: May 26, 2003
Posts: 29240
    
139

Henry: I like vampire analogy!

Originally posted by arulk pillai:
Having said that, you would not want everyone in the development team to be well-rounded since you can blow out your budget. That is why you have architects/team leads and one or two senior developers to play this high-calibre role while others concentrate on cutting code.

I would. I want the same skills Mark described within the development team itself.
2) Many issue "coders" encounter aren't pure technical issues either. For example, the ability to forsee changing requirements helps the code get written in a more versatile style. Proactively finding code withing the organization that can be reused is another related technical issue that is just coding.
3) Communicating is important for everyone too; especially with other engineers. If there is a communication issue between people on the team, the API is likely to be wrong or contain subtle bugs due to poor/lack of communication. It's also important for the PM so risks and delays come up as soon as possible and the PM can plan accordingly.
4)Someone who is going to tell me I'm wrong and propose alternatives is this most important one for me. If I give someone a task that doesn't make sense or isn't the best way, I want to hear about it. I've worked with people who do this (both Americans, H-1Bs from India and people from other countries who for some reason have been left out of this thread.) I've also worked with people who just say ok to everything and give you exactly what you asked for or a buggy version of what you asked for (also from all three groups.) Guess which one gives you a better product.

I think these soft skills are important for everyone to have because then you have everyone looking out for the project. The more people looking at something, the better chances of something being found. It also provides better chances for cross-training, growing someone for the senior developer role, backups, etc. If the architect or senior developer is unexpectedly out, you have the resilience to deal with it.

Also, I have seen the skills Mark mentioned when we hire entry level people. This isn't an experience thing. A good developer will question a task as soon as it doesn't make sense.

Our summer interns also show these skills after a while. It sometimes takes a couple weeks for them to gain the confidence that they are right and feel comfortable questioning it. I'm impressed that it does still happen. We have them grow at communication too through meetings and having them explain tasks/status.

On the comment about not everyone being well rounded, yes it costs more. Just like it costs more to hire a programmer than a receptionist. You don't throw the receptionist at a programming problem just because the receptionist is cheaper. You have to weigh the mistakes made and improvement opportunities missed with the cost.

I think what it amounts to is that a project is a large, relatively complex undertaking. It's rare to write a perfect, exacting and unambiguous spec and throw the code over the wall to a coder who does the work and hands it back. If this was common, we could easily outsource the coding tasks to a country where things are cheaper. In the case of India, this would mean sending the work TO India rather than using H1-Bs sitting in the office.

I happen to work for a company that does outsourced work (within the US) for another organization. We spend a ton of time communicating and using the skills described in Mark's #2-4. Like Mark, I am in New York City. We were not chosen as the outsourcing vendor because we are cheap. We were chosen because we deliver what they want (as opposed to what they initially ask for) on time and with high quality. In the end, these are things that make the business happy. Slashing the budget by half doesn't help if they don't meet the business need. This is like talking about the performance of a function that doesn't work. If it doesn't work, who cares how fast it is?

Edited to fix typo - I couldn't even write this post perfectly. Why should we believe we can write a complex spec perfectly?

[ March 09, 2008: Message edited by: Jeanne Boyarsky ]
[ March 09, 2008: Message edited by: Jeanne Boyarsky ]

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Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18116
    
  39

Now that my part of the debate has degenerated to vampires, maybe it will be good idea to give my view... why I think "everything going to bodyshops" is bogus conspiracy theory, that will never happen.


I am not against cheap labor. I am not against out-sourced, off-shored, near-shored, etc. labor. I am not against H-1B. I think they all have their place -- saving money is a good thing...

I am not against out-sourcing, in general. Again, saving money is a good thing. But there are limits. Outsourcing maintenance applications, low priority applications, or just hosted applications, is okay. Even partially outsourcing critial applications is a good too....


But I think that many companies may have gone too far in the last decade, and are starting to pay the price today. During a meeting (client to remain anonymous), an outsourcer asked for more funds, because 24 out of the 25 outsourced applications are in the "red". This means that at best, all cost savings will be negated. And at worst, the client hasn't been optimally productive during the last year, and may lose critical parts of their business.

What really bothered me the most is that the client were surprised. The consulting company just kept painting a rosey picture, until they couldn't anymore. Of course, the client kicked out the vendor. And of course, the vendor did right by not saying anything, as they would have been kicked out earlier.

Now, this is an extreme example. But keep in mind, there is no incentive for a "bodyshop" to do what is good for the client, just to fulfill the letter of the contract. There is also tons of incentive to save money, versus very little incentive to do more than the bare minimum.


The other issue is the business model of a bodyshop. Sure, they can get really smart people. Sure, they can develop really smart people. But will they keep them? The business model is that of cheap labor and saving money. If you are smart would you want to work for a body shop that wants to pay less, and do the minimum amount of work? Maybe. But as soon as you developed your skills, you are moving on. Remember, people with more talent have more options.


The conspiracy theory assumes that "bodyshops will take over the industry" when obviously they won't. The conspiracy theory states that "bodyshops will develop smarter people" -- which they might, but will they keep them? IMHO, outsourcing and bodyshops will continue to florish, but it will because it is a huge market -- there are tons of places to save money. But to take over the IT industry? To put all Americans out of work, just because they are more expensive? That's just bogus....

Henry


Books: Java Threads, 3rd Edition, Jini in a Nutshell, and Java Gems (contributor)
S. Palanigounder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 145
Originally posted by Henry Wong:


Holy water. Sunlight. A wooden stake.

There are tons of choices here... pepper?!?!?

Again. If I believe this whole thing is just a bogus conspiracy theory, why would I care to argue about the details? It's like arguing the fact that the trend towards solar panels (solar energy) is going to give vampires more shade.

Henry


Pepper with curry may be stronger and much spicier. A wooden stake? No violence!

Why do you think that bodyshops investing in US elections is a bogus conspiracy? It was reported recently.
Jeanne Boyarsky
internet detective
Marshal

Joined: May 26, 2003
Posts: 29240
    
139

Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:
Why do you think that bodyshops investing in US elections is a bogus conspiracy? It was reported recently.

Henry didn't say that bodyshops aren't investing in politics. He said he thinks the whole "all the jobs are going to bodyshops and will put American developers out of work" theory is bogus.

Many people donate money to and lobby politicians. In fact, often both sides of an issue donate money to the same politician. It doesn't necessarily follow that this means bodyshoppers can get whatever they want. In this particular case, all three leading presidential candidates are in favor of increasing the quota. Besides, you don't need bodyshoppers to lobby - some US companies are doing that themselves. From the original article, "companies such as Microsoft, Sun Microsystems, and Google have been lobbying Congress to raise the cap." So I don't see the relevance of whether or not bodyshops are donating money to US politicians.
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18116
    
  39

Pepper with curry may be stronger and much spicier. A wooden stake? No violence!


Wow. I thought you were joking, now I am not so sure.... You really don't know what a vampire is, do you?

Henry didn't say that bodyshops aren't investing in politics. He said he thinks the whole "all the jobs are going to bodyshops and will put American developers out of work" theory is bogus.


Bodyshopping as an industry will definitely flourish -- as IMHO, there is still "dead weight" in IT that I would like to see gone. But it is still comparatively a small part of IT, and there is a big leap of faith from going from non-critical apps to killing the IT industry in the US.

Henry
[ March 09, 2008: Message edited by: Henry Wong ]
S. Palanigounder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 145
Originally posted by Henry Wong:


You really don't know what a vampire is, do you?

Henry



Wine with Pepper and Curry must be good.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Let's move away from discussing facts about vampires. Henry made an analogy using them which was certainly relevant to his argument, but going into our knowledge about vampires at this point won't really help apply that analogy or further debate the underlying question at hand.

--Mark
Ryan McGuire
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Joined: Feb 18, 2005
Posts: 988
    
    1
Originally posted by Jeanne Boyarsky:

...
Also, I have seen the skills Mark mentioned when we hire entry level people. This isn't an experience thing. A good developer will question a task as soon as it doesn't make sense.

Our summer interns also show these skills after a while. It sometimes takes a couple weeks for them to gain the confidence that they are right and feel comfortable questioning it. I'm impressed that it does still happen. We have them grow at communication too through meetings and having them explain tasks/status.
...


Re: Confidence to speak up.
I think one of the "problems" causing the reluctance to speak up is the way classes are run. All through school, including college, students are given nice, self-contained, predigested problems. All the information needed to implement the solution is included in the original problem statement. Any time it's possible that there isn't enough information given, that's choice E (just after D - None of the above). In my experience, interns and new hires have been trained to pull all-nighters trying to grind out a solution rather than admit they don't have enough information to solve the problem.

Or maybe there WAS enough information available to solve the problem as originally stated, but the new hire's part of it could have run in a tenth the time if the input records could have been already sorted by employee last name instead of ID number. I've seen very few who will actually bring this up at the time. They've done the assignment they were given, EXACTLY as they've been trained for the last 17 years, and their little piece is as efficient as possible -- why would they question the overall system design?

Is there anything schools can do to help? Maybe projects in the last couple years of college should explicitly include that type of question. "Part A: Write code to specs X, Y, Z. Part B: Of X, Y and Z, which proved to be the most severe restraint on your solution?"
Tejas Jain
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Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 119
Originally posted by Ryan McGuire:


Is there anything schools can do to help? Maybe projects in the last couple years of college should explicitly include that type of question. "Part A: Write code to specs X, Y, Z. Part B: Of X, Y and Z, which proved to be the most severe restraint on your solution?"


I saw this type of questions in certification tests.


"Knowing is not enough, you must apply... Willing is not enough, you must do."
--Bruce Lee
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Ryan,

You are correct about this issue. I used to interview a lot of masters graduates from a prominent US school in 2000/2001. If I asked them how to built an e-commerce server they could regurgitate an answer. If I asked them 'what makes a good set of requirements" I got a blank stare.

I'll provide 3 ways we try to counter this at MIT (although we still have our shortcomings). First, MIT teaches principles, not data. For example there has traditionally been no language class in the CS dept. For years the language that was used in the intro CS class was scheme, which was not used much outside of academia. It was used for pedagogical reasons, recognizing that those who understood the principles could apply them to other circumstances. I am a big fan of this practice and look down on schools that try to tech current technologies and not underlying principles.

Second, 25% of the required classes are humanities. This is one of the key advantages of a liberal arts education--it's not a constrained problem. The questions are open ended and force the student to ask "why?" and "why not?"

Third, we have created special programs designed to teach some of these soft skills (I happen to teach at UPOP, which is one of them).

Still MIT like most schools often doesn't have room in it's curriculum to to really let students do a real project end to end. Even the project lab is a bit constrained. Schools like Harvey Mudd have an advantage in this respect, as do co-op oriented programs like Drexel and Northeastern.

--Mark
S. Palanigounder
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Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 145
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
... Henry made an analogy using them which was certainly relevant to his argument, ...

--Mark


I do not quite understand the analogy. Who are the blood suckers? Bodyshops, US politicians, CEOs? Whose blood is sucked out? H-1Bs or US workers?

I thought he was seeing a vampire movie while posting.
[ March 09, 2008: Message edited by: S. Palanigounder ]
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18116
    
  39

Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:

I do not quite understand the analogy. Who are the blood suckers? Bodyshops, US politicians, CEOs? Whose blood is sucked out? H-1Bs or US workers?

I thought he was seeing Will Smith's movie while posting.


Based on the original poster's non sequitur arguments, out-of-context arguments, and now this... I think it is safe to conclude that the intention of this whole thread is to stir controversy. I vote it is time to transfer this debate to Oscar.

Henry
S. Palanigounder
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Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 145
I started the thread and hope we can stop here.
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Henry Wong:

Based on the original poster's non sequitur arguments, out-of-context arguments, and now this... I think it is safe to conclude that the intention of this whole thread is to stir controversy. I vote it is time to transfer this debate to Oscar.


While the author did try to stir controversy the good people of this forum have turned the topic into a rather fruitful discussion of the type that we welcome here. I have no desire to close or move this thread because I think many people have benefited from the discussion and some people may wish to continue it.

The only problem has been some confusion on the part of the original poster. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he just totally missed your point.

--Mark
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:

I do not quite understand the analogy. Who are the blood suckers? Bodyshops, US politicians, CEOs? Whose blood is sucked out? H-1Bs or US workers?

I thought he was seeing a vampire movie while posting.


I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just totally missed Henry's point and aren't trying to cause trouble. Let me provide a different analogy.


Chicken Little: the sky is falling!

Henry: the sky is not falling. Stop wasting my time with this doomsday scenario.

Chicken Little: It is not the end of the world, we can take shelter in a cave.


The second statement is moot because in fact the sky isn't falling and there's no point discussing a hypothetical that isn't true. Henry's point is that he is frustrated that you talk about "preventing doomsday" when in fact there is no evidence that there is a doomsday.

While Henry may not be right (although for the record I agree with him), and you may have a point about the threat to US jobs, you have been making outrageous claims (e.g. "doomsday," the initial suggestion that there won't be any US IT jobs for our children), and it's the outrageousness of the claims that (as I understand Henry) bothers him, as well as others in the forum.

Please do continue to post links like that, as they are good topics for discussion. However those posting in such discussions may want to be waring of making such extreme statements.

To all participating, I do hope this discussion continues.

--Mark
Billy Tsai
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Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1297
Defense industry facing shortage of workers


BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
Oracle Certified Master Java EE 5 Enterprise Architect
Marc Wentink
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Joined: May 18, 2007
Posts: 142
Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:
The H1B would work 50% longer than you. I would think it is a very good deal for you company. Plus, the bodyshops always help your managers under the tables...


It's a depressing thought, and yes I think more and more labour will go abroad, out of the US and Western Europe. Not just our work, it's going on with less skilled work for years and years and worse, and if not immigrants willing to 'sleep in a barn', then to workers there on site in India and China, where they can live like a king on 30% of your salary, since the prices are substantially lower there.

The one thing you have to do, is do something really specialized that involves intensive communication with the client. Something that cannot be replaced by someone that just knows how to code real fast, and does not understand the field.

But yes, I have lost my pity for 'the poor starving people in India' years ago. They are our competitors.


SCJP5
Gabriel Claramunt
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Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 375
Originally posted by Marc Wentink:

...
The one thing you have to do, is do something really specialized that involves intensive communication with the client. Something that cannot be replaced by someone that just knows how to code real fast, and does not understand the field.
...


Well, in my opinion, you described the difference between coding and developing software.


Gabriel
Software Surgeon
Tejas Jain
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 119
Originally posted by Gabriel Claramunt:


Well, in my opinion, you described the difference between coding and developing software.


It is called the domain knowledge.
Marc Wentink
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Joined: May 18, 2007
Posts: 142
Originally posted by The Jain:


It is called the domain knowledge.


Yes, and then you have to know the culture, language and technology well, and your skills are worse paying more.

For example. I am now working in Delphi. I'd rather work in Java or C#, software technology considered, but for me this is an opportunity since I develop software used in a research project with an interesting 'domain' so to speak.

If they shift to C# someday or Java, I have to learn to use '{' instead of begin again, but that is just a tool that can be learned (re-)reading some books.

You have to plan your carreer more in a certain domain I think, then in a certain programming language or tool. Agreed?
Gabriel Claramunt
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Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 375
I agree that domain knowledge is very important, but I think the most important trait is the ability to interpret and translate a fragmented domain knowledge into computer space abstractions. That's the essence of software development and is the hardest part (there's no silver bullet for that). You don't need to be a domain expert, but you need the ability to learn and understand.
Originally posted by The Jain:


It is called the domain knowledge.

[ March 11, 2008: Message edited by: Gabriel Claramunt ]
Matt Brown
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Joined: Jan 26, 2004
Posts: 69
Washtech correspondent

Seattle, March 09

Bill Gates, on March 12, is heading over to Capitol Hill to ask for an increased cap on H1B visas. This visit is another, in a series of several, that have made foreign workers smile contentedly at having found such a vocal, visible and clout carrying ally. But ask the typical American IT worker about his/her work life, and words like unemployment, depression, anxiety, "apply to 6,000 jobs", "3 hour commute" and "60-hour-workweek", come tumbling out from the get go.

[The article has been removed as per copyright policies-Matt, please include a link to the original article so others can see it.-MH]
[ March 12, 2008: Message edited by: Mark Herschberg ]

"I just use my muscles as a conversation piece, like someone walking a cheetah down 42nd Street." - Arnold Schwarzenegger
Luke Kolin
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Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 335
Originally posted by Matt Brown:
Toni Chester, a Sr. Lotus Notes/Domino Developer ... I have a degree in Applied Mathematics and a Bachelor of Science degree in Statistics; my work history is spotless, and yet, I am unable to find a full time job today!"


The unfortunate aspect of her situation is that she's working on an obsolete technology that's been shedding jobs for almost a decade now. I used to do Lotus Notes back in the 1990s, and in 2001/2002 I transitioned out of that because I didn't see much of a future in it. Technology involves constant change, and constant updating of skills and toolsets. Lotus Domino was seen as a poor choice almost a decade ago; why should she be surprised now?


From California to Pennsylvania, Florida to Washington, IT workers have near identical stories of unemployment, low pay, no benefits, long commute hours and how they are teaching their children to not consider majoring in IT.


We're desperately looking for high-quality Java developers where I'm at - we offer great benefits, flexible hours, telecommuting and all sorts of great benefits. There are plenty of companies that offer that all around Atlanta. The only catch is they're looking for good people, who can express themselves coherently, are passionate about what they do and can demonstrate high-quality work.

And that's surprisingly hard to find. I see so-called "architects" who cannot describe to me what a particular component of their system did with any specifics. I've seen developers who spent several years working on software that essentially did a single SELECT from a database and displayed the contents in a JSP, and believe that servlet request parameters can persist data to a database. I've interviewed a developer who claimed to have worked on parsing massive text log files in Java, yet was unable to tell me what I/O classes he used to do so besides "an InputStream".

Of course, what we'd really love is someone who understands concurrent, multi-threaded programming or who's developed a framework or anything more than simple systems integration between Struts, Hibernate and Spring. Take 20 minutes talking about what you've been up to, and how exciting it's been. Tell me what you disliked about your tools/code base/procedures and how you'd fix them. I guarantee you'll get hired even if your Java knowledge is average.

But if you don't have that passion, interest and knowledge of what you've been doing, if you don't come across as enjoying your field and you can't speak to the technology, you won't get hired. Doesn't matter if you're American, Indian or Antarctican. Ain't gonna happen.

(This isn't rhetorical, btw. If you're in Atlanta, want to do cool Java work and don't need an H-1 to work here, PM me. Apologies in advance if this is against the guidelines.)

Garrett says, "Until 1999, I was able to find employment easily. Today, that is not so. Many times, these foreign laborers are not qualified, or fake experience, for the job. There are fewer and fewer IT management opportunities. I wonder what our next president is going to do about this."


There's two massive problems with this statement. First, if one was unable to find work in 1999 (at the height of the last boom), that's a gigantic red flag to me since they were hiring anyone with a pulse and enough coordination to hit CTRL-ALT-DELETE. Second (and this is probably linked), he's waiting on the "next President" to fix his problems for him. The only person who can fix his problems is Bob Garrett, and he's apparently uninterested in applying for that position.

I've been here for almost a half-decade and I still believe what I believed in 2002 when I was an H-1 worker - good, smart software authors have nothing to fear from cheap foreign labor. Good always trumps cheap, simply because it is so scarce (even if not all employers appreciate it). No offense intended, but from what I see of our offshore participants I am not staying up at night. But if you're going to be passive about your career development and skills, you're roadkill - whether you are in Bangalore or Baltimore.

Cheers!

Luke
S. Palanigounder
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Joined: Apr 03, 2003
Posts: 145
Here is some related news:

http://washtech.org/news/legislative/display.php?ID_Content=5232
Arjun Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 1871
Potentially 286,000 jobs or 18% of Pennsylvania's entire job market can be offshored.They are not offshored yet.we are seeing these kind of news for years now.Had you believed in 'expert' study in the past there would not be any programming job left in US by now.But its not the case.Quick search on java on moster.com gives me more than 5000 results.On monsterindia.com gives around 4000.This is not correct way to arrive at conclusion but atleast you can see the trend.


MH
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: McCain, Obama, and Clinton are in favor of increasing the H-1B quota.
 
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