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Y do u do this 2 ur posts

Roy Ben Ami
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 13, 2002
Posts: 732
Thomas Paul , i didnt see anywhere that short forms arent allowed in java ranch. please point me to that.
its really ridiculous that u "threat" to kick users who use short forms in java ranch, however if u point me to the poilcy page that says short forms arent allowed i would be compelled to stop using them as i like this forum.
until then, u will see me still using them.
Corey McGlone
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 20, 2001
Posts: 3271
Personally, I don't have any problems with people using short forms when engaged in informal communication. However, I don't think that's what we have here. I don't know anyone here personally. A number of fellow ranchers have answered a lot of my posts, but I still know little to nothing about them. Because of that, I feel that I'm engaged in formal communcation with them.
If you walked up to someone on the street that you didn't know, and you needed to ask them something (for the time, perhaps), would you start throwing all sorts of slang terms at them? I doubt it?
If you're engaged with someone you know (chatting with a friend over the internet, perhaps), I don't see a problem with using short forms but, for professional, formal communication, I find it rude and irritating.
As far as the example of I'm versus I am or can't rather than can not; this is simply ludicrous. I'm is a contraction of I am as is can't of can not. Contractions are a part of the English language and of common speech. Even though the word because is part of common speech, the correct spelling is not bcoz.
Jason brings up an excellent point in that when a reader scans a post, that reader creates a mental image of that poster, based upon their perception of the post, itself. When someone uses excessive short forms, I (like many others here, apparently), feel as if you are being rude and inconsiderate. You probably meant me no offense, yet I can't help but feel as if you did. Granted, these aren't strong emotions and I'm not going to hunt you down. Rather, I'll probably try to answer your post, as best I can. Unfortunately, I've noticed that my replies to posts with short forms in them are generally shorter and less helpful than my replies to posts without them. This is not something I do intentionally; it is just something that I've noticed along the way.
So, I simply ask that, if you'd like me to take the time to read your post and give you a good, informative answer, I'd ask that you take the time to write a proper question.
Corey


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Jamie Robertson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 09, 2001
Posts: 1879

"Contraction" - Thank you Jason! I couldn't remember the literary term for it.
The difference between contraction and the short forms is that contraction is governed by a set of rules. This ensures readability, consistensy, and effective communication. Also, anyone learning english in a class, would learn this technique. Short forms are not regulated(anything goes), they are not consistent(example 'v' = we, some like it, some don't...), and they reduce the effectiveness in communication. So the difference between "u r" and "you're" is that "you're" enforces consistency, and maintains effective communication where as the other represents chaos and poor communication.
The other difference is the frequency of short forms(half of every sentence) compared to that of contractions(most posts contain very few). With the higher frequency of short forms, the general message can not be understood readily, where as with contraction it can.
Jamie
[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie Robertson ]
[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie Robertson ]
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
From Longman Dictionary of American English:

language:
1. a system of speaking, and usually writing, used by people in one country or area.
2. the system of written and spoken words that people use to communicate.
3. a system of commands and instruction used for operating a computer

Language is a system which human beings use to communicate with each other or with computers. The only difference between human-to-human communication and computer-to-computer (or human-to-computer) is that humans have the ability to think and guess the meaning of a word while the computer has a predefined set of language constructs it uses to figure out what a human wants from it.
Roy et al, try to write a program in Java using the same technique you use to write in English and I bet there will be compilation errors. Every language has a vocabulary (set of words we can use) and a grammar (set of rules which describe how words can be put together to get something meaningful). Why are academicians working their neck off to make up those grammar rules if the people won't use them anyway???
The human brain is adaptive and that feature is overly used when it comes to writing.
You can't be lazy when writing a Java program because the compiler won't let you go further until you get it right, so why don't you do the same for English? Think of the people reading your post as the compiler!!
my $0.02


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Jamie Robertson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 09, 2001
Posts: 1879

Originally posted by Roy Ben Ami:
Thomas Paul , i didnt see anywhere that short forms arent allowed in java ranch. please point me to that.
its really ridiculous that u "threat" to kick users who use short forms in java ranch, however if u point me to the poilcy page that says short forms arent allowed i would be compelled to stop using them as i like this forum.
until then, u will see me still using them.

I think the general point here is that this falls under the statement: "I want to maintain a professional exchange on JavaRanch so that corporate america won't feel embarassed to find employees spending time here." (quote was lifted from the naming policy
If you have any arguments as to the advantage of using short forms (eg. u r v...) over plain english terms, then please post them. I'm sure that if you can show that using the short forms is advantageous or serves some sort of benefit to the forum, then I'm sure that the Ranch would have no problems with them.
My quick pro/con list:
Advantage:
-will save a few microseconds of typing
-is cute and fun
Disadvantages:
-people not familiar with all short forms will not be able to understand posts.
-Javaranch site will not look professional and informative
We will need more advantages than this (feel free to add more to either list) in order to convince the JavaRanch folks to accept short forms.
Jamie
[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie Robertson ]
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
Jamie I'm on your side, but I wonder if short forms are...
cute and fun

Smilies are cute and fun, short forms are hideous and everything but fun. I don't see how they can be cute and fun... Or did you make that advantage up so that the list doesn't stay empty ?
Jamie Robertson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 09, 2001
Posts: 1879

I think that they are anything but cute and fun, but it was the one of only 2 "advantages" (and I use the term "advantages" very loosely) of that I could think. I can't take credit for it though, I actually stole the thought from Roy
"...i love them, and i see them as fun !...".
I thought I could get away without referencing my source, but I guess credit should go to the original author of the idea!
Jamie
Roy Ben Ami
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 13, 2002
Posts: 732
like i said in my previous posts:
short forms are the standrad in the internet.
99.99999% of the users have no problems understanding them.
(im willing to leave the 0.000001% to you bartenders).
however, 50% of the users atleast dont understand LOL, IMHO etc.. words that u use frequently.
then the arguement of "cant undersatnd it" is not relevent. almost all people who r surfing can undersatnd by didaction (like valentin pointed out we r not compilers) that u means you and that y means why (i know really tough to guess that ) .
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
Roy,
you got my post wrong. I said that we are smarter than compilers but we should not take advantage of that feature for everything we do, particularly for writing.
Moreover, I'd like to know where is that "standard" about short forms you are referring to. Is this a document or something?
I also would like to know where you get your statistics from? 99.999999% of users have no problem understanding them... How is that?
Jamie Robertson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 09, 2001
Posts: 1879

Originally posted by Roy Ben Ami:
short forms are the standrad in the internet.

I'm sure you meant chat rooms and not the internet. I am a regular on the internet to research various topics, and I must say that I have never encountered this form of the english language at any of these sites. I also confess, that I've never needed to enter chat room because my wife is enough conversation for 10 people! I'm all chatted out by the time I'm finished talking with my wife!
Jamie
[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie Robertson ]
Corey McGlone
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 20, 2001
Posts: 3271
Originally posted by Roy Ben Ami:
...didaction...

Hmmm...didaction... ??? ???
Is that short form for deduction? (Just kidding!)
Roy Ben Ami
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 13, 2002
Posts: 732

Hmmm...didaction... ??? ???
Is that short form for deduction? (Just kidding!)

nope
that just means im not a native english speaker.
as for Jamie, i agree its the standrad in chatrooms and not the internet.
however, Valentin, my assumption of 99% (.999) is pure logic.
because most of the people here are semi intelligent , i think they understand when put into context that u means you and that y means why.
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
Roy,
Valentin, my assumption of 99% (.999) is pure logic.

oh my god !
because most of the people here are semi intelligent...

what do you mean by "semi-intelligent"?? I assume you wanted to say "semi-literate"
another thing: assume you are in a forum about mathematics and you want to describe an equation to somebody. I guess it would look like this:
---
Can somebody explain what the following equation means: cos(u + v) = cos(u).cos(v)-sin(u).sin(v) ???
---
Roy's answer:
y? that's ez. First u add u and v together and then v are going to develop the eq using trig id. blablabla. Finally, v got cos of u * cos of v min sin of u * sin of v. v are pretty sure that u can understand this coz it is very ez
---
Translation:
why ? that's easy. First you add you and we together and then we are going to develop the equation using trigonometric identities. blablabla. Finally, we got cos of you times cos of we minus sin of you times sin of we. We are pretty sure that you can understand this because it is very easy.
Roy, remember this is meaningless drivel, so no hard feelings
[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Valentin Crettaz ]
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Roy Ben Ami:
like i said in my previous posts:
short forms are the standrad in the internet.
.

ph33r m3 cuz i 0wn j00! u r l4m3r n j00z r suXx0rz. only l337 k3w1 HaXx0r d00dZ sp33k sh0r7 1ik3 +his. btw, d0 u h4v ny pr0n 4 m3? br17ny roXx0rz!!!
Roy Ben Ami
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 13, 2002
Posts: 732
Jason, first what u wrote isnt short forms its giberish. u can take any subject to the extreme and make it look ridiculous.
secondly, short forms dont give u the right to curse and offend other users. i take it personally what u wrote and i will discontinue my chat with u.
Jamie Robertson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 09, 2001
Posts: 1879

Originally posted by Roy Ben Ami:
99.99999% of the users have no problems understanding them.
(im willing to leave the 0.000001% to you bartenders).
however, 50% of the users atleast dont understand LOL, IMHO etc.. words that u use frequently.
I found a survey that states otherwise:
completely legit survey. Let the truth be known! :roll:
Jamie
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Roy Ben Ami:
like i said in my previous posts:
short forms are the standrad in the internet.
99.99999% of the users have no problems understanding them.
(im willing to leave the 0.000001% to you bartenders).
however, 50% of the users atleast dont understand LOL, IMHO etc.. words that u use frequently.

I challenge you to find a post of mine that uses "LOL" or "IMHO". The fact is that this a professional forum for professional Java developers, not internet gurus. You may think that short forms are the "standard" on the internet but I haven't seen them at any of the other professional web sites that I frequent. Perhaps they are the standard at the sites where you normally spend your time?
I have to admit that anytime I encounter a post with short forms I simply skip it. If a person can't take the time to write their thoughts out then why should I waste my time responding to them.


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Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Roy Ben Ami:
because most of the people here are semi intelligent , i think they understand when put into context that u means you and that y means why.
And in fact using "u" and "y" make it more difficult for an intelligent person to read your posts. Using short forms forces a person to sound out your post in theor head because you are replacing common English words with phontic words. But as a speed reader, I can recognize a word merely by it's form.
Side note: This is the same reason why reading a sentence with all caps is more difficult than reading a sentence in lower case. Upper case removes form by making all letters have equal height.
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Roy Ben Ami:
Jason, first what u wrote isnt short forms its giberish. u can take any subject to the extreme and make it look ridiculous.
secondly, short forms dont give u the right to curse and offend other users. i take it personally what u wrote and i will discontinue my chat with u.

Sorry Roy, but there is no reason to be offended (I can't help if you were offended, but it was not my intention). And it wasn't cursing either for that matter. But it did display two things:
1) How ridiculous people look who talk like that on the internet. That is a "common" means of communicating on the internet that you obviously did not understand. It takes far too much deciphering to get the message.
2) How not speaking using the language correctly serves as a barrier to meaningful communication.
Since you were able to state what 99.9999% of the people on the internet find acceptable, I would think you would be familiar with l337-sp33k on the internet. If you were than you would be able to decipher that message as something that any 14 year old l33t-sp33kr on the internet might type.
ph33r m3 cuz i 0wn j00! u r l4m3r n j00z r suXx0rz. only l337 k3w1 HaXx0r d00dZ sp33k sh0r7 1ik3 +his. btw, d0 u h4v ny pr0n 4 m3? br17ny roXx0rz!!!

Not addressed at you (note the plural context of 'you') but just an example of this form of communication, here is the translation (I think):
Fear me because I own you. You are lamers and you all are suckers. Only elite cool hacker dudes speak short like this. By the way, do you have any porn for me? Brittany rocks!!!
[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
Ashley Pratt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 12, 2001
Posts: 43
Hey I think guys ur going way ahead.
I think u, y, ur are very common words like as you all mentioned LOL, IMHO and mostly all people are able to understand them.
The problem arises when the people tries to go into more advance abbr. which are difficult to decipher.
Why u all guys are making such a big fuss over it?
And if some of u guys are not aware of this , so till now all of us must have got aware of these few shorts.
No Hard Feelings.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Huh? I couldn't make heads or tails out of that!
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Aha, you tried to read it!


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mahadevan raja
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 96
those who r not able 2 understand the short forms,it wud be better if u request the bartenders to open a seperate discussion forum for English.i think this wud be more helpful for u all,i dont understand y u all r making this a big issue,if u r not able to understand then ask the person who posted it to be more clear.
me not getting whats wrong in it.
anyhow.....


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Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
I didn't quite get that. Could you repost in English to be more clear?
mahadevan raja
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 96
hey u a bartender isnt it?now what can i do if u urself r not able to understand it,search for a discussion forum specifically for english.
jus kiddin
no hard feelings.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I didn't quite get that. Could you repost in English to be more clear?

put your hand on your heart, and ask yourself, Did I understand above post?
If your answer in NO, then nice to meet you, as there are very few people who can lie to themselves.
It is in ENGLISH.. I wish that Respected Micheal try to read this post.
No Harsh feeling ...
What I write I believe ... and I feel happy when some one proof me wrong .... I accept it and change my self.
if HTH,TIA is allowed on this professional site then I think there is nothing unprofessional in using u,v,r.....


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
mahadevan raja
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 96
hey ravish
thanx for ur comment,i read ur oneliner in ur signature,that made me understand u,btw(sorry by the way)who is michael,y shud he read this post.
i know i am right,then y shud he read it and comment on it.
anyhow
byee
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Hi
yesterday I had to go as I was feeling hungry and it was late night too..
AW .. I back for a healthy discussion.
I have editded my post ... say sorry again for some wrong words I used there...
by Roy:
i take it personally what u wrote and i will discontinue my chat with u.

Hi roy .. do not take it seriously... we are here for good discussion.... cool urself ...
Yes I do not think here that I am asking time or address with some one.
I am personally attached with this site .... very true I am not going to meet Val, Roy, Sonir, Rob, Fei...to name few but today(alteast from last 2 months) I have feeling abt them.
"Contraction" - Thank you Jason! I couldn't remember the literary term for it.

Please find the meaning of contraction
from the above Link:
A contraction is the result of compressing a word or phrase by omitting certain sounds (or letters) and closing up the string that is left
Now can someone tell me what was/is the need for contraction ?? TIA
AW FYI in 2050 Oxford Dictionary has appndix NET acronyms.... ;-)

I'm engaged in formal communcation

Please find the ethics for formal communication, Plz search for "contraction" on above page.
contraction is governed by a set of rules

though I am not pundit but still I would like to know the rules. TIA
language:
1. a system of speaking, and usually writing, used by people in one country or area.
2. the system of written and spoken words that people use to communicate.

Language changes with time ... Am I wrong??
Even english itself eveloved from Latin and lot of other european language and it is in most distorted form in US.
English now has words from different languages like GURU, Pundit.
Yes computer lang also changes ...

we are smarter than compilers

Yes, and thats why we come up with a compiler who understands our shorts like i++ for i = i + 1; and i += 5 for i = i + 5; (We are saving here only one key stroke)
though later has more readability and how much I know from the compiiler point of view there is not much optimisation too.
ph33r m3 cuz i 0wn j00! u r l4m3r n j00z r suXx0rz. only l337 k3w1 HaXx0r d00dZ sp33k sh0r7 1ik3 +his. btw, d0 u h4v ny pr0n 4 m3? br17ny roXx0rz!!!

WTH is this ???
I would think you would be familiar with l337-sp33k on the internet.

Thanks Jason... for providing link.
How would u feel if I talk to in Hindi or in Sanskrit.
l33tspeak is for different group of user.. as per ur link:
1)the author of this post, "S1dz0r," did not have a catastrophic seizure when he typed this message on a Japanese Animation forum -- he was writing in l33tspeak, one of the extreme permutations of slang and jargon on the Internet.
2)Gamers more than others have embraced a pseudo-l33t dialect.
3) He(University senior Jeremy Cushing ) says l33tspeak is used mostly by players with inflated senses of their own computer prowess.
I will get familar with l33speak .. before going to play online with these users who speak this lang.
4) Instant Messenger users make frequent use of acronyms unique to the Internet but not really considered l33t.
I think we are talking abt acronyms and shorts here.
Val writes
----------------------
AAMOF YMMV, but AFAIC and AFAICT and AFAIK<g> LOL is for LOL. But FBOW, ISTR, LOL is also for LOL, LOL and LOL.
if you get these TLAs then YGIAGAM, if you don't then you are VI<BG> and I'll TSWC .
TMK it's CWOT, as TTBOMK it's not IOTTMCO.
MTCW.<VBG>
----------------------
Translation:
-----------------------
As a matter of fact your mileage may vary, but as far as I'm concerned and as far as I can tell and as for as I know LOL is for Lots of Love. But for better or worse I seem to recall LOL is also for Laugh out loud, Lots of Luck and Laughing Out Loud.
If you get these three letters acronyms then your guess is as good as mine. If you don't then you are village idiot and I'll tell someone who cares.
To my knowledge it's complete waste of time as to the best of my knowledge it's not intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.
My two cents worth.
<g> - grin
<BG> - big grin
<VBG> - Very big grin
acronym courtesy
-----------------------
Val, remember this is meaningless drivel, so no hard feelings :Grin:
completely legit survey. Let the truth be known!

How much time did it take to make this page.. :-)
I haven't seen them at any of the other professional web sites that I frequent.

I have not seen any "haven't" at any of the other litreature that I frequent.Perhaps they are the standard at the litreature where you normally spend your time?
Plz
visit this
from abvoe link:
In informal English, yet another 's arises through the contraction of has.
Please visit this too
From the above link:
It's = contraction of "it is" Proper usage: "It's too early to tell if this will become the accepted method." Notice that it is rather informal to use "it's" in a professional paper. Better to write out "it is."
Tired ......
but FYI .. I was thining that TIA and CMIW is my copyright... but today after visting this page that no it was already existing.... so common thought...
I think it is time to change our self... change is a MANTRA(key) of success and life
HTH
CMIW
TIA
PS: it took me one month to find out the meaning of HIH..... and now I use them .... any one can go and read my earlier posts.. he will find that I use to write "Thanks in advance" and "Correct me if am wrong" . But I changed my self ... coz even if I might 40+ I would love to change myself.(I am not 40+..)
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by ravish kumar:
if HTH,TIA is allowed on this professional site then I think there is nothing unprofessional in using u,v,r.....
What do HTH and TIA mean?
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
How would u feel if I talk to in Hindi or in Sanskrit.If this was a Hindi or Sanskrit site, I would feel fine. Since this is an English language site we require that you speak in English.
Angela Poynton
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 02, 2000
Posts: 3143
I havn't read all of the posts in this thread but I think I get the point.
Let me just say a few things.
Javaranch does have a policy that all posts should be in English, any not conforming to this policy, or at least not providing a valid reason for not do so and providing an English translation which can be verisfied will be removed. However, the fact of the matter is that for a large proportion of our visitors English is their second/third/or lower language.
Now some here feel like abbreviations like "v" for "we" are perfectly acceptable. Well English is very much my first language and to be honest it took me a few minutes to figure out what "v" was meant to mean, since "v" doesn't even sound like "we", well not in my dialect anyway. (If I was doing a impersonation of a German person I might just get it) This is my point, in English even though the spelling of words are generally not changed around the world the way they are pronounced will vary according to people's accent.
My Chinese friend has huge problems prounouncing some English words in a way I can understand because in her first language those sounds just don't exist. When I read, I hear the words in my head in the same way I would pronounce them, I imagine most do this is why these abbreviation can cause problems to so many people.
To write in the confusing formats that you consider acceptable because you understand it is incredibly selfish.
Now in Meaningless Drivel we'll let almost anything slide but in the other forums people are supplying their time and expertise for free, or are asking for help. I think the least you can do is show a little consideration by making your post readable.
Also really what is the point of shortening a word like "we" ... in the time it would have taken you to remember the short form you could have typed the extra character! Really you are saving nothing.
As for things like LOL, BTW etc ... OK SOME people still don't understand this, but I'm prepared to guide them to a useful site that will help them out, since these are fun and widely used abbreviations for phrases rather than individual words.


Pounding at a thick stone wall won't move it, sometimes, you need to step back to see the way around.
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
Ravish,
Language changes with time ... Am I wrong??
Even english itself eveloved from Latin and lot of other european language and it is in most distorted form in US.

Yes, languages are changing with time, but let me doubt that English will ever change in the way semi-prehistoric guys would like to. And if it does change that way, then it is really sad, and it means that the world is very sick, sick of carrying damn lazy people who are not able to use their fingers correctly.
Short forms are just inacceptable because it makes the whole thing look ridiculous and hideous.
Acronyms (which are not short forms) are fine at the beginning of a post, like FYI or AFAIK..., or at the end, like HIH, HTH..., but not scattered all over the text.
What is cool, though, is that I don't know any bartenders at Javaranch who uses short forms, and I wish that the whole Javaranch staff would not answer to posts written by 2-years-old babies.
That's exactly what I'm going to do from now on and I expect people to follow Thomas' trail.
Moreover, ravish, from the liner in your signature, how would one be able to convince you that you are wrong, because apparently you are looking for any dumb reason to back you up.
Remember "Meaningless Drivel", no hard feelings
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Valentin Crettaz ]
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Ya! I m speaking eng..
is Ya accepted here ???
sorry ...
Yes I am speaking english ....
Why do not you guys try to understand that it is english??
why is it evolving ???
I wrote about hindi and sanskrit ... for writing some thing in "l33tspeak". Which was no way link with the discussion going on here.
FYI:- For Your Informatio
TIA:- Thanks In Advance
HTH:- Hope That Helps
and YES these are used by bartenders and moderators. And I do not find any thing wrong in this. As a bartender while replying how many times a man can type "Hope This Help"... just for example.
I am E & C (Electronics and Communication) engg.(plz don't say that this is shorts.. it's accepted acronym for engineer) and as a fact in communiaction engg(Though as it was total theory papae I used to avoid it) but still waht do I remember today, there was one topic on Redundancy which accepts that if because of noise even some data is lost still we can recover by the original information.
and as here in net, noise is almost 0% so I think people are making use of (or say taking advantage of)Redundancy here. That's all
Dave Vick
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Joined: May 10, 2001
Posts: 3244
OK, fine, for all of the pro short-form people you are correct, there is nowhere in the rules of the ranch that state that short forms are not accepted. However, it is also fairly obvious from the posts on this page that the people who prefer them are out numbered by those who do not like them and find them difficult to read.
I am one of them. Yes, as an intelligent person I can figure them out - the key word there is that I need to figure them out, I can't just read them as I can a normal word - I have to stop reading the post and change mental gears to decipher what the poster is trying to say. Like Thomas mentioned using them changes the form of the word and that is what most people use to help read the word.
Like a few others have said I think I get around a fair amount on the internet and have yet to see a site where short forms are used by even half of the people, let alone 99.999999% of them. And further more, when they are used the most common reaction is 'huh?'.
I stand by what I said before, using them is lazy and rude and it goes a long way towards displaying the posters complete disregard for the reader. If you want people to keep reading your posts and if you want to have a good chance of getting answered in an intelligible manner don't use excessive shorts in your posts.
That's it, there is nothing more to discuss,
you can tell me all day how widely used they are (they aren't)
you can tell me all day about how many people understand them (most people can't)
you can keep saying the same thing over and over (in the same unintelligible manner) and I, and most of the other people here, will keep not reading your posts.
This is a professional forum, as such we should all be professional. Part of being a professional is to be respectfull of other peoples wishes, desires, problems. This site's primary language is english, when someone posts here they expect to see replys and other posts in english - if you don't like it go away and start your own forum that uses only shorts to communicate (I'm sure the 99.9999% of the internet that understands them will be banging down your door to post there). Until then why dont you repsect what seems to be the majority of posters so far and stop using them. That is not unresaonable, it is actually quite fair to all concerned and I would think it a simple courtesy to everyone involved to use as standardized way of talking as possible.
The other thing is that just because people understand something doesn't mean it is ok to use that form for everything - It think I'll go start an xml forum where all you can do is post things that you can say using xml - everyone understands xml right? so no problem right?
Get a life, stop trying to be cool and part of the in-crowd, the shorts aren't doing it for me - as a professional, as a moderator, or as a human being trying to communicate with another.
Dave
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
ravish,
in "Hope That Helps" we have 15 characters which come at the end of almost every post. This kind of abbreviation is useful because you type only 3 characters instead of 15. But abbreviating you by u or we by v or why by y brings NOTHING !!!
Get it right man.... Your abbreviated language IS NOT english, it is GIBBERISH!!
And allow me to doubt that your gibberish is an evolved form of English, I'd say that it is so the opposite of evolution.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Val ,
that's why I like you.
even I know and u know it too that u can not stop yourself form giving the answers
You all are talking abt ethics of english. As I told you even I was not using these shorts and acronyms. but now I use. I find it helpful.
and I do not think that this is killing english.


Short forms are just inacceptable because it makes the whole thing look ridiculous and hideous.

do not you think it is true with new net acronyms?

but not scattered all over the text.

I gave the example like the one you gave.
Yes very true ... shorts are also should be used in proper manner, not scattered all over the text.

because apparently you are looking for any dumb reason to back you up.

Yes this dumb reason is same because of which you back up yourself for so called acronyms(net abbreviations)
Remember "Meaningless Drivel", no hard feelings
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
what the heck...
I give up... It's no good to fight against wind anyway... You are right short forms are THE way to communicate on the Internet, you convinced me, thank you for showing me the right path, I am sooooooo grateful.
Never, I repeat, NEVER expect me to answer a question written in short forms. NEVER. I'll let that to the 99.999999% of semi-literates who understand it, that is, you should get an answer right away if your assumptions are correct.
I won't reply anymore here since it seems that it only helps you stabilize in your position.
See you around, maybe....
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Dave Vick:

who do not like them and find them difficult to read.

Yes if used excesively. And the same is true with acronyms too. Please find my example in previous post


when they are used the most common reaction is 'huh?'.

I can not help them ... they have to help themselves.


you can tell me all day how widely used they are (they aren't)

I did not tell, how widely it is used. but Yes I will say this coming up or say has come...


you can keep saying the same thing over and over (in the same unintelligible manner)

then how should I reapet what you are reapeating over and over(..context is different)


This is a professional forum, as such we should all be professional. Part of being a professional is to be respectfull of other peoples wishes, desires, problems.

Yes I do respect others .... and as Val said too here we are on healthy discussion(atleast I find this thread better than discussing other's religion)


This site's primary language is english, when someone posts here they expect to see replys and other posts in english

I am speaking in english and that's why you all guys are getting it and posting your views.


if you don't like it go away and start your own forum that uses only shorts to communicate

No I won't go ... and then there will be no fun too... I think I am in meaningless drival forum (I wanted to write MD forum).


Get a life, stop trying to be cool and part of the in-crowd,

count the posts .... u will find who is in crowd.
Please .... no harsh feelings...
PS: Request to all bartenders and moderators; Please don't give threats, I have very weak heart.
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Valentin Crettaz:
it is GIBBERISH!!

Reminds me of Roy...
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Valentin Crettaz:
what the heck...

I think you have taken it to heart ... by your picture on your home page and the way you reply .... I thought you are sporting person and I know you are.
SORRY ... if I hurt you by any mean...
but there is a point you said you won't reply the post which will be in shorts
Can you see any shorts here???
PS: I try not to use shorts here .... but I still say that there is nothing wrong.
Everyone has a right to stick to his own foolish thought(It applies on me too )
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Y do u do this 2 ur posts