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Evil dictators

Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8903

Who we have as president will definitely make a difference in how we treat other countries.

True.


Groovy
Steve Wink
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Joined: May 13, 2002
Posts: 223
Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Personally, I'm still pissed off at the Brits for taxing us so heavily back in the 1600's and 1700's, and that whole Boston Massacre thing totaly was not called for.

Well we're still upset at you chucking our tea in the sea...
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Paul Wheaton:
And I often feel great shame in being an American

Umm.. how is that? I dont see anything shameful in the history of this great country.. Sure mistakes have been made but nothing more "shameful" than what other countries have done in the past as well.
Quote from G.W.Bush, Dec 16 ABC Interview - "Why should I remove a speck from your eye when I have a log in mine.."


Commentary From the Sidelines of history
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20484
    ∞

Just because other countries make mistakes does not give us license to feel no shame in our mistakes.


permaculture Wood Burning Stoves 2.0 - 4-DVD set
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
But why hate yourself for some action that was committed thinking it was the right thing to do then.. No action was made with a malicious intent in the history of this country.
Eleison Zeitgeist
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Joined: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: 115
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:

>>>Is it so that an Indian's life doesnt have any value? Why are the countries supporting anti-terrorism neglecting this?
>>>
I see 2 reasons
1. India is over populated
2. Indian is not rich country
[ December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Pradeep Bhat ]

Nobody really cares about the death of Indians (not even Indians themselves). Americans care about their soldiers... It's like the rich, good-looking, succesful kid in school; he doesn't necessary care what other people think; for some reason other less fortunate kids do... by highlight something bad that happeded to the successful kid, it makes the less unfortunate happy...
-Eleison
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Originally posted by Paul Wheaton:
Just because other countries make mistakes does not give us license to feel no shame in our mistakes.

But isn't that the point of looking at others' shortcomings?


Make visible what, without you, might perhaps never have been seen.
- Robert Bresson
Bhau Mhatre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 199
Ashish Agrawal ---------
Personally i support Saddam.
---------------------------

What for?
Ashish Agrawal--------- Actually majority of indians support him...
That's news to me. And I don't.
I would rather say, majority of Indians do not agree with some of US's foreign policies.
Paul McKenna ---------
Sad to say, but the above statement truly reflects the majority Indian sentiment.

Et tu, Paul?
Ashish Agrawal---------coz he isnt a terroist, it is America who made the world call him so. America is just making way for its hidden agenda...i.e. OIL in Iraq. If it is that concerned abt world peace and terroism, dont u think it should hav helped India first which is facing terroism since last 40-50 years
Not agreeing with US's foreign policies is one thing. Supporting Saddam is another.


-Mumbai cha Bhau
Devesh H Rao
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Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
You are kidding aren't you ?
............
Can India patent a Texan steer and call it a bullock ?
........
I am speechless...
Paving the way for bio-engineering....

ya i am sorry i was kidding... my dad was a farmer and i rather liked your idea of patenting the texan steer and will defn toss the idea around him maybe i will strike it rich coz i will be able to sell them back to texan farmers.... but i think the texan farmers will cry foul coz now even the livestock will get offshored.......

Originally posted by Thomas Paul
The level of silliness is going up. "The US was mean to us in 1971!" Well that was more than 30 years ago and Richard Nixon was president. Nixon is dead so can we move on now?
As to the basmati rice patent issue, it is way overblown:
http://www.rediff.com/money/2001/aug/21rice.htm
............
The question is, how long do you hate the US for something it did? Should we despise Germany because of World War II? I will bet that most of the Indians complaining about the US weren't even born in 1971.

i never said US was mean i said coz US has had a habit of having double standards and it continues till date there is mistrust of the US in most of indian minds. i gave a example of 1971 war to build up the context...... i also gave the example of afgan war which happened recently to highlight that what was true in 1971 stands true even now period.
and on patenting issues i mean a huge hue and cry is raised when u say piracy is rampant in india and we sell US brand by just changing some alphabet in name to use the brand recognition say pepe jeans get renamed to pope jeans(LOL sorry but this name is a figment of my imagination no harm intended anywhere and i apologise before hand if any extra sensory feelings are hurt) but on similar lines the "BRAND" basmati gets hijacked and it is justified
and i never said indians hate US all i said was indians mistrust it .... and it is doin nothing to change that anyways... u can never ask for trust u gain it.
.
Originally posted by Eleison Zeitgeist
by highlight something bad that happeded to the successful kid, it makes the less unfortunate happy...

that is called a persecution complex....
and something what the US is exactly trying to do right now with passing laws on banning Offshoring etc etc coz in here the rich kid happens to be the indian IT industry

Originally posted by Jason Menard
What on earth does any of this have to do with "Evil Dictators"?

i re-quote myself on this
Originally posted by Devesh H Rao
On second thoughts if we did a count of all the topics on MD which have branched off to a different topic than what is the main topic I won�t be surprised if we get a near cent percentage

and i am actually not helping it either by replying to everything...
anyways i am trying to reduce my guilt by replying to as many people in one post itself...

anyways if we all agree to brand either george bush (or for my american friends ABV ) a evil dictator we can still continue the bickerings in this topic...
Ashish Agrawal
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Joined: Nov 02, 2003
Posts: 112
Excellent Devesh!!!
Devesh H Rao
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Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687

Originally posted by Ashish Agrawal:
Excellent Devesh!!!

i dont drink unfortunately ashish i happen to be a teetoller but i could give u company with a Fresh Lime Soda anytime u say...
Ashish Agrawal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 02, 2003
Posts: 112
Originally posted by Devesh H Rao:

i dont drink unfortunately ashish i happen to be a teetoller but i could give u company with a Fresh Lime Soda anytime u say...

hey, even i dont drink. So we ll hav Fresh Lime Soda together. JavaRanch shud provide with some more smilies, especially for those who dont drink.. Cheers....!!!
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
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Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Mumbai cha bhau:
Et tu, Paul?

Oh no absolutely not! How can you accume me.... (just kidding). I was explaining the resentment shown by most Indians in India. Infact I was appalled by an editorial in "The Hindu" after the capture of Saddam. I thought "The Hindu" was the last good newspaper around but I'm sadly mistaken. Anyway, I could resist writing a scathing email to the editor..
Trying to bring the topic back on line:
My list of top 10 "Evil" Dictators:
1. Adolf Hitler - Undisputed leader of the pack
2. Kim Jong-il - Reports by German doctors who worked in N.Korea state the conditions in N.Korea are as bad as Nazi Germany
3. Pol Pot - Probably the worst genocide since WW2
4. Stalin - He's #4 because he showed to decency to participate in the allied coalition during WW2
5. Ayatollah Qhomeni - Probably the icon of Islamic fundamentalism
6. Saddam Hussein - Unconfirmed reports state that he used a human "shredder" on his enemies
7. Robert Mugabe - Leading a civil war under the facade of justice. I have no sympathy for this man
8. Fidel Castro - Stubborn idiot who would rather stick up for his extinct ideals rather than let his people prosper
9. Zia Ul-Haq - Brutal coup leading to the public execution of an elected leader of Pakistan
10. Your choice...
I was tempted to insert Indira Ghandi for her attempted coup in the 80s but I guess I am biased against her..
Devesh H Rao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I was tempted to insert Indira Ghandi for her attempted coup in the 80s but I guess I am biased against her..

LOLOLOLOL and it is spelled Indira Gandhi... i really dun want to comment on this.. so i will let it be for now.
but paul tell me something all the dictators u have mentioned are from contemporary times I think the world has seen some pretty bad people in its history�. I really dun kno whether this argument counts but I rather think kings to be dictators as well� and on comparative scales of genocides there are a lot more worse examples what say�?
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Before you got me started, Paul, what do you mean by "Stalin showed to decency to participate in the allied coalition during WW2"?


Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Devesh H Rao
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Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Before you got me started, Paul, what do you mean by "Stalin showed to decency to participate in the allied coalition during WW2"?

something similar to "I was tempted to insert Indira Ghandi for her attempted coup in the 80s "
forgive him Map he skipped history lessons in school.
Sonny Gill
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Joined: Feb 02, 2002
Posts: 1211

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I was tempted to insert Indira Ghandi for her attempted coup in the 80s but I guess I am biased against her..

Hi Paul. Just curious what your reasons are? Most of what I know about her is second-hand, and from people who would be considered biased against her. I have no time to go doing research on Indira, and she is not important enough, but would like to know more of your views on her! cheers.


The future is here. It's just not evenly distributed yet. - William Gibson
Consultant @ Xebia. Sonny Gill Tweets
Ashish Agrawal
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Joined: Nov 02, 2003
Posts: 112
Guys lets come back to present....Whats today scenario? Who is dominating or trying to dominate the world either directly or indirectly? I guess there shouldnt be two answers for this.
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Who is dominating or trying to dominate the world either directly or indirectly? I guess there shouldnt be two answers for this.
Since the breakup of the Soviet Union, there really isn't anyone. The United States continues to promote democratic pluralistic governments, but that's both a matter of good ethics and good business.
And it's working quite well, thank you. Currently, some 60% of the world's governments are democratic, so that means democracy is doing quite nicely. Outside of China, 3 out of 4 people live in a democracy.
If you want to attribute something to America, either directly or indirectly, that would be the thing.
Joe
R K Singh
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Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Eleison Zeitgeist:

Nobody really cares about the death of Indians (not even Indians themselves).

I wish you were in India while Kargil war was going on.
Pity you were not there.


"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Richard Hawkes
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Joined: Jan 28, 2003
Posts: 1340
Who is dominating or trying to dominate the world either directly or indirectly? I guess there shouldnt be two answers for this.
In order of coming to my random mind, there are many answers:
Dr Evil
Ernst Blofeld - is he really dead?
Davros (from Dr Who)
Stewie (from Family Guy)
Some tanned bloke on a yacht in the "24" series
Ronald MacDonald and/or Colonel Saunders (different disguises)
Donkey Kong
THRUSH
Devesh H Rao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687

Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
Who is dominating or trying to dominate the world either directly or indirectly? I guess there shouldnt be two answers for this.
In order of coming to my random mind, there are many answers:
Dr Evil
Ernst Blofeld - is he really dead?
Davros (from Dr Who)
Stewie (from Family Guy)
Some tanned bloke on a yacht in the "24" series
Ronald MacDonald and/or Colonel Saunders (different disguises)
Donkey Kong
THRUSH

You forgot Mr Bill Gates.
Steve Wink
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Joined: May 13, 2002
Posts: 223
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Oh no absolutely not! How can you accume me.... (just kidding). I was explaining the resentment shown by most Indians in India. Infact I was appalled by an editorial in "The Hindu" after the capture of Saddam. I thought "The Hindu" was the last good newspaper around but I'm sadly mistaken. Anyway, I could resist writing a scathing email to the editor..
Trying to bring the topic back on line:
My list of top 10 "Evil" Dictators:
1. Adolf Hitler - Undisputed leader of the pack
2. Kim Jong-il - Reports by German doctors who worked in N.Korea state the conditions in N.Korea are as bad as Nazi Germany
3. Pol Pot - Probably the worst genocide since WW2
4. Stalin - He's #4 because he showed to decency to participate in the allied coalition during WW2
5. Ayatollah Qhomeni - Probably the icon of Islamic fundamentalism
6. Saddam Hussein - Unconfirmed reports state that he used a human "shredder" on his enemies
7. Robert Mugabe - Leading a civil war under the facade of justice. I have no sympathy for this man
8. Fidel Castro - Stubborn idiot who would rather stick up for his extinct ideals rather than let his people prosper
9. Zia Ul-Haq - Brutal coup leading to the public execution of an elected leader of Pakistan
10. Your choice...
I was tempted to insert Indira Ghandi for her attempted coup in the 80s but I guess I am biased against her..

You missed some biggies:
Mao TseTung - he probably is responsible for more deaths than any of the others, and when you consider you've got Hitler ( 15M?? ) and Stalin ( 20M?? ) in there thats quite an achievement
Idi Amin - apart from killing lots of people in very nasty ways, wasn't he a cannibal as well?
Papa Doc Duval in Haiti
Slobodan Milosovic - popularised the phrase 'ethnic cleansing', AKA genocide, in the Balkans
General Pinochet - brought death squads to Chile
And if you're going to include
"9. Zia Ul-Haq - Brutal coup leading to the public execution of an elected leader of Pakistan"
you may as well have Oliver Cromwell, Lenin and Robspierre. ( ok, I know they were regicides rather than killing elected leaders, but in their day it was the equivalent, and they did all have their reigns of terror afterwards)
I'd probably edge out your 7, 8, 9 ( not cos they were nice people by a long shot) and put in Mao, Amin and Milosovic with Mao in the top 3. Phew.
Steve Wink
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Joined: May 13, 2002
Posts: 223
Originally posted by Sonny Gill:

Hi Paul. Just curious what your reasons are? Most of what I know about her is second-hand, and from people who would be considered biased against her. I have no time to go doing research on Indira, and she is not important enough, but would like to know more of your views on her! cheers.

Well, at the risk of stirring things up, didn't she institute a policy of sterilizing poor muslims? Sounds like eugenics to me...
Joe King
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Joined: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 820
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:
No action was made with a malicious intent in the history of this country.

Do you really think that the US never did anything that it though wasn't 100% the right thing to do? Every country does some dodgy things - I bet even Andorra has done some sneaky things in its history.
As for no action with malicious intent... I could think of many examples (what about the 100's of Greeks tortured by the CIA?). I could also think of examples from just about every other country in the world. Lets face it - we all live in countries that have done some bad things. By having some humility about it, and yes, a degree of shame, then we can hopefully do something to stop it happening again.
I think slavery was an example of this. England did more than just about any other country in modern history to get the slave trade going. After a while though, the shame of it became too much, and we became one of the first world powers to ban it. Now we are a country that is firmly against it. America did a similar thing - in these cases we can turn the shame of past actions into positive actions against future problems. To deny the bad things from history is to ignore the lesson to be learnt from it.
[ December 19, 2003: Message edited by: Joe King ]
Devesh H Rao
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Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687

Originally posted by Steve Wink:

Well, at the risk of stirring things up, didn't she institute a policy of sterilizing poor muslims? Sounds like eugenics to me...

ya that's true and she also made it mandatory for any male to be shot on sight but the problem with that policy was most of the police men were male so they shot themselves first and then there was no one left to shoot anyone else so everyone were saved.
LOL steve really i am thinkin of copy pasting this post of ur's and putting it in the fun fwds topic as a joke.
wherever did u get that from if u can pass on the link we could have some fun
Steve Wink
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Joined: May 13, 2002
Posts: 223
Originally posted by Devesh H Rao:

ya that's true and she also made it mandatory for any male to be shot on sight but the problem with that policy was most of the police men were male so they shot themselves first and then there was no one left to shoot anyone else so everyone were saved.
LOL steve really i am thinkin of copy pasting this post of ur's and putting it in the fun fwds topic as a joke.
wherever did u get that from if u can pass on the link we could have some fun

My error, apparently it was Sanjay, under her government:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=%22indira+ghandi%22+sterilization
and these links don't say it was just muslims.
[ December 19, 2003: Message edited by: Steve Wink ]
Al Newman
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Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

My list of top 10 "Evil" Dictators:
1. Adolf Hitler - Undisputed leader of the pack
2. Kim Jong-il - Reports by German doctors who worked in N.Korea state the conditions in N.Korea are as bad as Nazi Germany
3. Pol Pot - Probably the worst genocide since WW2
4. Stalin - He's #4 because he showed to decency to participate in the allied coalition during WW2
5. Ayatollah Qhomeni - Probably the icon of Islamic fundamentalism
6. Saddam Hussein - Unconfirmed reports state that he used a human "shredder" on his enemies
7. Robert Mugabe - Leading a civil war under the facade of justice. I have no sympathy for this man
8. Fidel Castro - Stubborn idiot who would rather stick up for his extinct ideals rather than let his people prosper
9. Zia Ul-Haq - Brutal coup leading to the public execution of an elected leader of Pakistan
10. Your choice...



Originally posted by Steve Wink:

You missed some biggies:
Mao TseTung - he probably is responsible for more deaths than any of the others, and when you consider you've got Hitler ( 15M?? ) and Stalin ( 20M?? ) in there thats quite an achievement
Idi Amin - apart from killing lots of people in very nasty ways, wasn't he a cannibal as well?
Papa Doc Duval in Haiti
Slobodan Milosovic - popularised the phrase 'ethnic cleansing', AKA genocide, in the Balkans
General Pinochet - brought death squads to Chile
And if you're going to include
"9. Zia Ul-Haq - Brutal coup leading to the public execution of an elected leader of Pakistan"
you may as well have Oliver Cromwell, Lenin and Robspierre. ( ok, I know they were regicides rather than killing elected leaders, but in their day it was the equivalent, and they did all have their reigns of terror afterwards)
I'd probably edge out your 7, 8, 9 ( not cos they were nice people by a long shot) and put in Mao, Amin and Milosovic with Mao in the top 3. Phew.

This is a rather confusing topic because our view of this tends to be rather 20th-century centric and we tend to forget some truly appalling men from the past. It's also confusing because some or many of these men also did some good or at least held decent motives. There are dictators who are tremendously overrated because of the publicity they received. There were men who killed lots of people through negligence. Finally there are the tyrannies not attributable to a single figure, such as some on the Republican side of the Spanish Civil War.
Some who killed a LOT:
1) Tai-Ping Rebellion China 1850s & 60s 60 Million dead???!!!
2) Genghis Khan
3) Mao
4) Hitler
5) Stalin
6) Tamerlaine
7) Napoleon???
8) Kublai Khan
9) Lenin/Trotsky/Old Bolsheviks
10) Moghuls? Some of our Indian and Pakistani colleagues might help here?
11) First Emperor of China???
12) Atilla the Hun???
Evil Dictators:
1) Hitler
2) Stalin
3) Pol Pot
4) Kim Il Sung
5) Saddam Hussein
6) Slobodan Milosovic
7) Mao
8) Lenin
9) Moghuls?
Overrated:
1) Pinochet (3000 dead??? Cmon.....)
2) Mugabe
3) Papa Doc & Baby Doc Duvalier (Voodoo & what else?)
4) Castro (well, maybe. Thousands, not millions).
5) Marcos
6) Ayatollah Qhomeni (was a leader not a dictator, and did not kill a lot).
7) Zia Ul-Haq (Brutal, yes. So was Pinochet. But how many actual deaths?)
8) Idi Amin (nutcase, but how many? Not sure about this one).
Mixed Bag (some good, some bad)
1) Kemal Ataturk
2) Julius Caesar (has anyone given the Gaulish POV?)
3) Franco
4) Tito
5) Kublai Khan??? Good Press from Marco Polo....
6) Alexander the Great???
Some would put Napoleon, Lenin, Mao and Castro on this list. I don't think any of them did enough good to qualify.
Collective responsibility:
1) Tai-Ping Rebellion
2) Republicans in Spanish Civil War
3) Armenian Massacre (Ataturk bears some but not all responsiblilty for this one)
4) Rwanda
Screw-ups (Killed a lot without meaning to...)
1) Neruh/Jinna
2) Tai-Pings (???)
3) Mao???
Big killers in self-defence:
1) Gaius Marius (Rome, about 100 BC)
2) Emperor Claudius Gothicus
3) Emperor Aurelian
4) Mao?
5) Manchus in Tai-Ping Rebellion?
Any comments and additions welcome....
[ December 19, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Devesh H Rao
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687

Originally posted by Steve Wink:

My error, apparently it was Sanjay, under her government:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=%22indira+ghandi%22+sterilization
and these links don't say it was just muslims.
[ December 19, 2003: Message edited by: Steve Wink ]

from the same article u picked up
Mrs. Gandhi's response was to declare a state of emergency, under which her political foes were imprisoned, constitutional rights abrogated, and the press placed under strict censorship. Meanwhile, the eldest of her two sons, Sanjay Gandhi, started to run the country as though it were his personal fiefdom, and earned the fierce hatred of many whom his policies had victimized. He ordered the removal of slum dwellings, and in an attempt to curb India's growing population, initiated a highly resented program of forced sterilization. In early 1977, confident that she had debilitated her opposition, Mrs. Gandhi called for fresh elections, and found herself trounced by a newly formed coalition of several political parties. Her Congress party lost badly at the polls

a dictator would defn not have called for polls and lost badly they infact call for elections and get elected with 99% votes...
what i mean to say here is emergency was a blot on indian democratic system but the people responsible learnt their lessons and no one in future would try such stuff thinkin india is their ancestral property.
as far as sterilizing is concerned it is a good idea implemented in a very poor way. we in india have a similar program now where cash incentives are given to people to actually get themselves sterilized. population being one of the major problems needs to be controlled but in a humane way where people have a choice.
anyways very much impressed with you to own up ur genuine mistake Steve u dont see that too often nowadays ...
Devesh H Rao
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Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687

Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

10) Moghuls? Some of our Indian and Pakistani colleagues might help here?
[ December 19, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

1. Aurangzeb
2. Baber
3. Tuglaq
but i have no idea how many people were affected...
Mani Ram
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 11, 2002
Posts: 1140
Originally posted by Devesh H Rao:

1. Aurangzeb
2. Baber
3. Tuglaq
but i have no idea how many people were affected...

Actually Timur & Nadir Shah were worse than the people listed above, but they are not Mughals (neither is Tughlak)
I haven't read anything about Baber killing people except in wars.
Aurangzeb executed people who disobeyed the law with out any mercy, but I don't know whether that counts as murder (whether the laws were just or not is a different issue!).
[ December 19, 2003: Message edited by: Mani Ram ]

Mani
Quaerendo Invenietis
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Note : That there are no American Evil Dictators on that comprehensive list.
Let's see if I can find some....
General George Armstrong Custer OR Chief Sitting Bull and Chief Crazy Horse of the Sioux Indians
Or have we all become apathetic about the whole story, watching favourite actors playing Cowboys and Red Indians and made heroes of them all.
The fact remains that one lot were all but annihilated... There were factors like small-pox and I suppose lack of education may explain the uneven distribution of deaths,and the fact that Europeans brought the disease with them not with standing.
[ December 19, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
we all live in countries that have done some bad things
Okay. But what exactly has the US done lately to deserve the hatred of so many people? For example, I hear that people hate American foreign policy. What exactly do they hate? Is it our relationship with Pakistan? What exactly are we doing that is so heinous? I am honestly curious.
Joe
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Devesh H Rao:
LOLOLOLOL and it is spelled Indira Gandhi... i really dun want to comment on this.. so i will let it be for now.
but paul tell me something all the dictators u have mentioned are from contemporary times I think the world has seen some pretty bad people in its history�. I really dun kno whether this argument counts but I rather think kings to be dictators as well� and on comparative scales of genocides there are a lot more worse examples what say�?[/QB]

They're spelled "don't", "you", and "don't know".
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Steve Wink:
Slobodan Milosovic - popularised the phrase 'ethnic cleansing', AKA genocide, in the Balkans.

Sorry, but I have to correct you a bit on this one. It is certainly true that one way to commit ethnic cleansing is through genocide, however "ethnic cleansing" more specifically means to remove (or "cleanse") from an area people belonging to a specific ethnic group. While the Serbs certainly did kill a staggering number of people, their primary means of ethnic cleansing was to force Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) and Croats from their homes in what they considered "Serb" areas. Their favorite tactic was to burn the homes of non-Serbs, forcing them to relocate.
Devesh H Rao
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Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

They're spelled "don't", "you", and "don't know".

How dare you... so very typical of americans to find fault in indians while neglecting the same from fellow americans .....

this topic was back on track for some time but jason it has again gone offtrack all coz of u (so typical of indians on MD to blame everything on americans).....
Devesh H Rao
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Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687


Originally posted by Jason Menard:
however "ethnic cleansing" more specifically means to remove (or "cleanse") from an area people belonging to a specific ethnic group.

nearly 5 lakh kashmiri pandits have been displaced from kashmir due to militancy can that be a considered a case in ethinic cleansing then ....
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Devesh H Rao:

nearly 5 lakh kashmiri pandits have been displaced from kashmir due to militancy can that be a considered a case in ethinic cleansing then ....

I should have stated that ethnic cleansing is a campaign of systemic, forced removal of people of one ethnicity from an area by members of another ethnicity. I'm sure a better definition could be found somewhere on the net, but that's the gist of it. Displaced persons / refugees are not usually the same thing.
Paul McKenna
Ugly Redneck
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2000
Posts: 1006
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Before you got me started, Paul, what do you mean by "Stalin showed to decency to participate in the allied coalition during WW2"?

Well, I would have had Stalin at #2 position on my list if not for his willingness to participate in the allied side of WW2. He could have very well tilted towards the axis (which he actually did before things soured between him and Hitler) in which case he would have been definetly #2 on my list.
Originally posted by Sonny Gill:
Hi Paul. Just curious what your reasons are? Most of what I know about her is second-hand, and from people who would be considered biased against her. I have no time to go doing research on Indira, and she is not important enough, but would like to know more of your views on her! cheers.

I am basically biased against the Congress Party of India. They play partisan politics and are controlled by minority interests. They seem to forget that almost 80% of the Indian population does not share the same views as themselves. There is laundry list of complainst I have against Indira but that can be explained in a different thread.. I dont want to divert this thread any more.
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Note : That there are no American Evil Dictators on that comprehensive list.
Let's see if I can find some....
General George Armstrong Custer OR Chief Sitting Bull and Chief Crazy Horse of the Sioux Indians
Or have we all become apathetic about the whole story, watching favourite actors playing Cowboys and Red Indians and made heroes of them all.
The fact remains that one lot were all but annihilated... There were factors like small-pox and I suppose lack of education may explain the uneven distribution of deaths,and the fact that Europeans brought the disease with them not with standing.

Some points:
The annihilation of the American Indian had many authors over a long period of time. The number of deaths is uncertain (I have read as many as 40 million) but if it was that high then disease was almost certainly the largest factor.
The indian nations were a curious mixture of innocents and the extremely agressive and points between. Custer, Sitting Bull, and Crazy Horse weren't dictators and as the numbers killed on both side weren't high they don't count as among the greatest butchers of history.
The biggest european butchers were possibly Cortes and Pizzaro who extinguished the Aztec and Inca nations, respectively. Apart from thos episodes it's difficult to call the massacre anything but several 'collective responsibility'. Given that the Aztec and Incas were both vigorous warlike societies who had expanded at their neighbor's expense it's difficult to find too much difference between them and their conquerors.
An 'American' list:
1) Cortes
2) Pizzaro
3) several 'Manifest Destiny'-style movements of which the US one was merely the last.
Add in the American Tories and I suppose you could include Washington on the list. But his 'sin' wasn't so much killing as dispossession.
 
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subject: Evil dictators
 
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