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Mapraputa Is
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Joined: Aug 26, 2000
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Tom: Ok then, perhaps you can explain why the World Cup was called the "World Cup" when only 13 countries participated the first time it was held? In fact, not a single country from Asia or Africa participated.

We are the world


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Alan Wanwierd
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Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 624
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:


Ok then, perhaps you can explain why the World Cup was called the "World Cup" when only 13 countries participated the first time it was held? In fact, not a single country from Asia or Africa participated.


Firstly - I'll assume you are referring to the FIFA world cup (as opposed to Cricket world cup, Rugby worl cup, Tiddlywinks world cup or any other world cup)

The first FIFA World Cup only attracted 13 nations, including four Europeans, eight from South America and a representative team from the United States. On the field of play however, the quality of football produced was of the highest standard. And whilst the public had expected to see a South American domination, the four teams from Europe did more than hold their own


...Not a bad mix for the first attempt at trying to organise such an event, remember travelling to Uruaguay in 1930 would have been an expensive venture and this was the days before sports & business collided to inject money. To get representatives from 3 different continents to turn up and compete together in the first event of tis kind was quite an impressive feat! I have no idea what was required to qualify for that tournament - I suspect a whole load of National Football Associations from around the globe were contacted to see if they wanted to participate, but many didnt have sufficient funds...

..and now after establishing the validity and economic viability of such competitions and with the governing body redistributing funds where appropriate to ensure financial hardship does not restrict a countries ability to participate, there are no fewer than 205 nations who compete to qualify for this tournament every 4 years. What was your point? Were you seriously trying to suggest that football is not a global game?
Thomas Paul
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What I am suggesting is that it took a lot of nerve to call something a "World Cup" if only 13 countries were competing for it.


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Alan Wanwierd
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
What I am suggesting is that it took a lot of nerve to call something a "World Cup" if only 13 countries were competing for it.


Was this an attempt at ironic humour?

..Anyway heres the research:
Only 13 teams from 3 continents (S.America, N.America, Europe) attended in Uruguay in 1930 - but many more were invited. Most declined for financial reasons. By 1934 interest had grown enormously and for the first time qualifiers took place to sort out the 29 countries from 4 continents (Europe, N.America, S.Aemrica, Africa)who expressed a desire to compete.

Throughout its existience FIFA has always worked toward developing Football on a global level and even now FIFAs efforts are what enable all 205 Footballing associations to complete (FIFA pays for air-fares and even supplies boots for some of the poorer nations!). As such I dont think anyone can argue that FIFAs efforts to create a truly "World-cup" can be questioned.

Compared with Cricket & Rugby the first ever football world cup had a good diverse mix of nations and has gone from strength to strength. Cricket and Rugby governing bodies are also working hard to promote their games on a global basis and do what they can to encourage participation (hence Canadians showing up and getting whipped at RugbyWC and countries such as Namibia fielding teams in the CricketWC. Still these organisations regard FIFA with envy at how they have managed to create a truly global game.

Returning to your chosen field: Baseball. What has Baseballs governing body done to encourage worldwide take up and participation in the so-called "World Series"? .. Outside of a few amusing jokes poking fun at the US I hadnt even heard of the "World Series" (certainly didnt know what sport it was) until my late teens how many countries have teams that participate? 1?? (or are there Canadians aswell??)

Interesting to read that the reason it was called "World Series" was because Americans suffered from delusions before and had 2 different competitions (East coast and West Coast) both declaring National Champions! so when the competitions met they needed a more impressive sounding title..!!! (Seems like this sport has a longstanding problem with geography!)
[ October 31, 2004: Message edited by: Adrian Wallace ]
Joe King
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Originally posted by Jesse Torres:


What? ".. such a tiny regional corner of the world..."

So you are saying that the U.S.A is a tiny regional corner of the world?

I don't think so...


In terms of population or land area, then yes it is a tiny regional corner of the word, but then so is Europe.
Thomas Paul
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There are limits on the number of "internationals" that can be on any one [football] club, but the ones who are there are the best of the lot.

This is where I think people like Adrian get confused. You can't compare baseball to soccer. Baseball is not a national sport. Yes, most of the teams that compete for the World Series are located in the US but the sport itself is open to any players from anywhere in the world. The best players in the WORLD play on Major League Baseball teams. There are no limits to how many international players you can have on your team. The Red Sox don't have to have a certain number of players from New England or even from the USA.

In any case, do you doubt that the Boston Red Sox are the best baseball team in the world?


But the world's already here, and playing in the Series. Your host just can't find "imperial arrogance" in a professional league that relentlessly scouts out the best that everyone has to offer, and when a team with 3 Dominicans, a Colombian, a half-Thai player and a half-Japanese player beats a team with 2 Puerto Ricans, 4 Dominicans, a Venezuelan, a Colombian, and a full-blooded Japanese player, it's not so much "American dominance" as one team full of the world's best beating out another.


Perhaps this might explain the difference... imagine the best English footballer in the history of the sport gets out of high school and is drafted by Athens. He spends two years in their minor league system and is traded to Barcelona. After playing five years and becoming a big success for Barcelona he becomes a free agent and signs a contract with Lisbon. He plays three years there and then finishes his career with Hamburg. The best English footballer of all time doesn't play a single game for an English football team.
[ November 01, 2004: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
Nigel Browne
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American Football.
How many times is the ball actually kicked during the average game?
American Handball more like it.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Nigel Browne:
American Football.
How many times is the ball actually kicked during the average game?

Between 15 and 30 times based on a random sampling of yesterday's games.

Dallas vs. Detroit:

9 kickoffs
3 punts
7 extra points
1 field goal
------
20 kicks total

Of course, in American football many more points are scored via the foot than in soccer.

Finally, I might remind you that the game got its name because the Brits chose "soccer" for the name of their sport. It isn't our fault that they changed their mind after the fact.
[ November 01, 2004: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
Marcus Green
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"the Brits chose "soccer" for the name of their sport."

When did that happen?

Taking a look at

http://www.thefa.com

Which claims to be "The home of English football", consistengly uses the term Football.


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Alan Wanwierd
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
There are limits on the number of "internationals" that can be on any one [football] club, but the ones who are there are the best of the lot.


Actually I'm not sure there are any limits any more - A couple of years ago for example ChelseaFC reached the English FA Cup final with just 1 Englishman in their squad. It is becoming the norm that clubs in the English Premiership have a vast majority of international players and home-grown talent is pretty much restructed to the lower divisions and less wealthy clubs. But despite the international flavour of the EPL it is still a domestic competition!!!



Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

Perhaps this might explain the difference... imagine the best English footballer in the history of the sport gets out of high school and is drafted by Athens. He spends two years in their minor league system and is traded to Barcelona. After playing five years and becoming a big success for Barcelona he becomes a free agent and signs a contract with Lisbon. He plays three years there and then finishes his career with Hamburg. The best English footballer of all time doesn't play a single game for an English football team.


Sounds quite possible (ok perhaps not for the English, but for many national sides I'm sure its the case that many of their biggest names have never played locally. For example I dont know if Australias Harry Kewell ever played in the Australian NSL.. but he is by far Australias biggest footballing talent.

The only difference between the situations you describe that I can see is that Baseball doesnt have any international competition.. just the domestic leagues. I think you are confusing players country of origin with their club level professional work. Until Baseball develops either an international competition with National representative sides, or an international club level competition with clubs from a number of countries I dont think they can truly claim to have a global competition!
Jason Menard
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Posts: 6450
And yet oddly enough, this quaint little tournament is broadcast live in 147 countries and territories throughout the world, primarily in Latin America, Asia, Africa, and the Middle East. Reporters from all over the world send correspondants to cover the event (as well as that other quaint little spectacle which we call the Super Bowl). Hell, it was even covered on the BBC news. Care to guess how much coverage FIFA gets in our mainstream news?
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Marcus Green:
"the Brits chose "soccer" for the name of their sport."

When did that happen?


It happened in the mid 1800's. At the time there were no official rules for football and two different versions each calling themselves football evolved. One version called Rugby Football allowed the use of the hands. The other version called Association Football did not. Association Football was called Soccer (a shortening of association) and that is the name that came to the USA. Around 1860 there was a clear split in the UK. Rugby Football became Rugby and Association Football became football (the name "soccer" was discarded). By then, the soccer name was widely used in the USA and a new version of Rugby Football that was simply called football was becoming widespread in the US. So it is all the fault of the Brists. They got us to use one name and then changed it. Then they had the nerve to blame us. No wonder we kicked them out of our country.
Don Kiddick
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USA USA USA !!!
Axel Janssen
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Hell, it was even covered on the BBC news. Care to guess how much coverage FIFA gets in our mainstream news?


Without wanting to start dispute, but this might to be more due to the fact that generally "there is more interest in Clowns Parade in Duluth than in other countries", as Thomas Paul has said here.
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
Without wanting to start dispute, but this might to be more due to the fact that generally "there is more interest in Clowns Parade in Duluth than in other countries", as Thomas Paul has said here.


I don't think I said that. But there certainly is more interest in the Clown's Parade than there is in the World Cup. Even when the US women won there wasn't much interest. (Other than that one woman running around with her shirt off.)
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
But there certainly is more interest in the Clown's Parade than there is in the World Cup.


World Cup? What's that?
Marcus Green
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"They got us to use one name and then changed it. Then they had the nerve to blame us. No wonder we kicked them out of our country."

Fascinating, I had not idea that confusion of sporting names was so significant in the history of the USA. Where did you get the information from?
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Marcus Green:
Fascinating, I had not idea that confusion of sporting names was so significant in the history of the USA. Where did you get the information from?
Wikipedia among other sources. "The word (soccer) is sometimes credited to Charles Wreford Brown, an Oxford University student said to have been fond of shortened forms such as brekkers for breakfast and rugger for rugby football."
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
World Cup? What's that?
An athletic supporter the size of a planet.
Jason Menard
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Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
An athletic supporter the size of a planet.


Ahh okay, that's what I thought.
Alan Wanwierd
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
And yet oddly enough, this quaint little tournament is broadcast live in 147 countries and territories throughout the world, primarily in Latin America, Asia, Africa, and the Middle East. Reporters from all over the world send correspondants to cover the event (as well as that other quaint little spectacle which we call the Super Bowl). Hell, it was even covered on the BBC news. Care to guess how much coverage FIFA gets in our mainstream news?


The FIFA world cup finals are (I believe) the worlds most watched sporting event?... Even the USA managed a decent audiences in 2002 despite the games being televised at inhospitable hours of the night.

see World Cup 2002 viewing stats

And.. ignoring the international competitions even the English Premier League gets televised all over the world and viewed by millions. Just 'cos lots of people watch something doesnt make it more than a domestic competition!

(oh and FYI US Baseball did not get a mention on any of the major TV, Radio or printed news sources here in Australia....)

Just done a bit more digging - and it seems that your little Baseball competition doesnt get particularly huge audiences:
Fox aired the New York Yankees vs. the Boston Red Sox and the St. Louis Cardinals vs. the Houston Astros in different parts of the country, drawing a total of 15.2 million viewers.


...Gee that Clown Parade must be something special!
[ November 02, 2004: Message edited by: Adrian Wallace ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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(oh and FYI US Baseball did not get a mention on any of the major TV, Radio or printed news sources here in Australia....)

Are you sure? I just checked the Sydney Morning Herald and they had several articles.
Thomas Paul
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Fox aired the New York Yankees vs. the Boston Red Sox and the St. Louis Cardinals vs. the Houston Astros in different parts of the country, drawing a total of 15.2 million viewers.

Are you sure that wasn't households? The World Series scrored a 15.8 which comes out to 17 million households in the US with a 25 share. That means that 25% of the people who were watching TV at that time were watching the World Series.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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In all, the entire World Cup attracted nearly 80 million Hispanic viewers in the U.S., or an average of 1.2 million per match, for an average rating of 4%.

USA - Average gross audience per match - 1,334,000

Which says that the VAST majority of the US audience are people who come from places where soccer is already popular.
Marcus Green
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"Wikipedia among other sources. "The word (soccer) is sometimes credited to Charles Wreford Brown, an Oxford University student said to have been fond of shortened forms such as brekkers for breakfast and rugger for rugby football."

By that logic

"And in the United states breakfast is called brekkers because the Brits chose "brekkers" for the name of the first meal of the day."

You suggested that in Britain the name soccer was given to the name because some people used an abbreviation, yet I have seen no evidence of any official/printed use of that term. I expect there were also alternative names for Gridiron and Baseball (or rounders as it is known in the UK) but that hardly means that was ever the name of the sport.

A more reasonable interpretation is that historically only the US picked up on a slang term for what in the UK is Association Football, and as other games (without the key foot/ball interaction necessarily) became popular it made sense to distinguish between them and Association Football.
Axel Janssen
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Originally posted by Adrian Wallace:

Fox aired the New York Yankees vs. the Boston Red Sox and the St. Louis Cardinals vs. the Houston Astros in different parts of the country, drawing a total of 15.2 million viewers.

...Gee that Clown Parade must be something special!


So now I got it.
This misterious clown parade in Duluth has to do something with baseball.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Marcus Green:
A more reasonable interpretation is that historically only the US picked up on a slang term for what in the UK is Association Football, and as other games (without the key foot/ball interaction necessarily) became popular it made sense to distinguish between them and Association Football.

Huh? As I stated, the slang term was developed and accepted in England, made its way to the US where it was adopted, and then dropped in England. Do you dispute this?
Marcus Green
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I seem to be the first to use the term "slang" in this discussion.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Marcus Green:
I seem to be the first to use the term "slang" in this discussion.

So? I said it was a shortened form of "association football". Are you saying that the term "soccer" was not used in Britian but was invented in the US? My point is that term was in use Britian, made its way across the Atlantic, was adopted in the US, and then abandoned by the Brits. So don't blame us for using the term. You invented it. You gave it us.
Don Kiddick
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This is by far the most meaningless drivel arguement I have ever read. A new record for MD - well done all !
Marcus Green
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"So? I said it was a shortened form of "association football". Are you saying that the term "soccer" was not used in Britian but was invented in the US? "

I don't think I said anything about the term Soccer being invented in the US. I suggested that the term soccer has never been the commonly accepted term for the game in the UK i.e. its "name" .You came up with an attribution whereby the game was given that name as part of slang (i.e. a non standardised informal word rather than the commonly accepted official or unversal word), and the source given referred to a use by an Oxford University student. It may be that Oxford University students call their pajamas JimJams but that doesn't make it the name of that item of clothing.

"So don't blame us for using the term. You invented it. You gave it us."

Steady on, now this is not a matter of blame, no need to take offence. It is important to have commonly understood words in a language that are widely understood. The problem with the word football is that many different sporting codes are called football (weather or not the essential ingredient is foot/ball contact). So although Association Football might be the prime candidate for the name, the term soccer removes any ambiguity as it is the only sporting code given that name.

My contention is that soccer was never the generally accepted term for the game in the UK. However there are many examples of words that have fallen out of common use in the UK but are still used in the US. Examples of this are

Butt for what in the UK is generally called your bottom.
Fall for what in the UK is called Autumn.

Bill Bryson, a most excellent American author is very very good on this subject. He likes to undermine snotty English people who put down the American version of English on the basis that it contains new words and Americanisations. He is often able to point out that apparent Americanisations are words that have fallen out of use in the UK.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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I think this is the offending line:

Association Football was called Soccer (a shortening of association) and that is the name that came to the USA.

If we change that to:

Association Football was sometimes called by the slang term Soccer (a shortening of association) and that is the name that came to the USA.


Now, is everyone in agreement?

Axel Janssen
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better:

Association Football was in very remote time, when rules weren't finally established and legendary & world-shaking clubs like Real Madrid, Inter Milano, Partizan Belgrad, Borussia Moenchengladbach, Celtic Glasgow, Arsenal London, Boca Juniors Buenos Aires, Dynamo Kiev, Torpedo Moskow, Legia Warsawa, FC Porto, PAOK Saloniki and U. de Chile (to name a few) weren't even been founded, was called by the slang term Soccer (a shortening of association) and that is the name that came to the USA.
[ November 04, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Axel Janssen
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Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
Do you guys believe that Football (Soccer) in U.S will ever reach the popularity levels of Europe?


I would call it a hopeless case. After 100 years they haven't even learnt to apply proper term.
When horses and cattles where introduced in argentinian pampa, there were tribes who confused things and used cattles for riding and horses as meat-producer. A bit like that.
Only goalkeeper can take ball in his hands. A foul is a foul and ball is used. Ball is something round and not kind of an egg.
[ November 04, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Jesse Torres:
Do you guys believe that Football (Soccer) in U.S will ever reach the popularity levels of Europe?


No. It is interesting but youth league soccer is very popular but none of these kids watch soccer matches or grow up to be soccer fans. They play soccer but watch baseball and football. Most of the US fans are first generation immigrants. I played soccer in high school but you couldn't pay me to watch a soccer match either then or now.
 
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