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Discussion of Naming Policy

Rob Ross
Bartender

Joined: Jan 07, 2002
Posts: 2205
besides, what would I and my fellow bartenders do with all our newfound free time if we didn't have to remind people to change their name to something more appropriate?!?
[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: Rob Ross ]

Rob
SCJP 1.4
Thomas Rochon
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 72
Just stumbled into the JavaRanch and it's a great place !
The naming policy is o.k.
But hands off the moose !
I like him
- Thomas -
Ron Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1056
Instead of hassling people after they register with an inappropriate name, wouldn't it be better for the registration page to reject the name if it doesn't include at least one space character?
That shouldn't be a hard programming problem, whether it's in Perl or in Java.


Ron Newman - SCJP 1.2 (100%, 7 August 2002)
Matthew Phillips
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 09, 2001
Posts: 2676
Originally posted by Ron Newman:
Instead of hassling people after they register with an inappropriate name, wouldn't it be better for the registration page to reject the name if it doesn't include at least one space character?
That shouldn't be a hard programming problem, whether it's in Perl or in Java.

We are getting ready to move to Jive, so we don't want to spend much time hacking UBB. We have already added and tested functionality to enforce the firstname space lastname policy in Jive.


Matthew Phillips
Adrian Ferreira
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 29, 2000
Posts: 118
Actually, police names works well but I think it should be improved. Some names would be automatically reject, eg. "F. Guy". I think we have too much post about this subject.
This is just another one
Adrian
J.D. Walker
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 28, 2002
Posts: 7
I'd say the naming policy is a good thing, in light of the desire by the management of this site to be more professional, when it prevents someone from registering as 'Long Dong' or StudMuffin, or 36DDWetCarla, or some other such nonsense like that.
Where you run into problems, however, is dictating how someone's real name is presented. Someone's name is a function of their self-identity, and to dictate that is a *perceived* lack of respect for people as individuals.
You wouldn't believe how many people actually object to MY name and the way I format it. I for one don't get it. My name is what I choose to be called. I'm not you, so why should MY name make YOU comfortable?
Besides, my parents had a sense of humor, and I'd like to kick my Dad's ass. The J. in J.D. actually does stand for Jay. Still don't get it? Put the first name and last name together, and think about it.....you'll get it
Cheers
J.D.
Barry Gaunt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Posts: 7729
Hey J.D, what do you think my parents were thinking
of when that gave me Barry Frederick?
-Barry (also known at school as "Stoppit Gaunt!"


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Guennadiy VANIN
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 30, 2001
Posts: 898
Marilyn,
tried searching, using ubb and google, for "Name Policy", for "Marilyn 2002" and this thread stays hidden from any searches. This thread does not deserve to be so deeply hidden
I think that it is impossible having 50000 users to have no celebrities.
I think Bill the Gates honestly tried many times to register using his true name but was eventually and many times kicked off by bartenders.
Then where is the Bill the Clinton. He was barred from his profession and should be in the middle of cerifications for Java Developer, now... if he is clever guy. And I guess he is.
I think it is unfair to them. And what are they think about behavior of moderators here?
Guennadiy VANIN
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 30, 2001
Posts: 898
OK, if I am discouraged to post on JR's image I would like to tell that:
I think that the name cuts to itself too much space making the work less convenient.
Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9044
    
  10
This is something that you should tell InfoPop.


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Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
If someone posts using the name of a famous person we always question them to make sure that it is really their name. If Bill Gates registered here we would not kick him off. If he claimed that he was Bill Gates we would probably check the IP address to see if it came from Microsoft.


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Guennadiy VANIN
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 30, 2001
Posts: 898
There are here 50 000 members and if we want a sustained evaluation...
The names are too few, and people are too many!!! Collisions are inevitable and there is no sense insisting in real names.
Even digits should be permitted in order to facilitate finding unused names. How would you feel/behave having a name collision 3, 4, 5,...14 times? and here is no possibility to verify already occupies names
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
We haven't had any problems with collisions.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
We haven't had any problems with collisions.
Well, very few, and none that weren't easily solved. When people send mail to moosesaloon@javaranch.com it goes to me; I occasionally get e-mails (maybe 10-15 in the last three years) from people unable to register because the name they want is taken. Most commonly the problem turns out to be that they already registered sometime in the past, and forgot about it. Other times they can just modify the name slightly and get in - e.g. instead of "John Smith" use "John Q. Smith", "J Smith", "Johnny Smith", etc.
Guennadii - remember that back when you originally registered there was a problem with the system for about three days (user ID files were getting corrupted somehow), and you were forced to re-register because of this. Most people have had an easier time registering than you did.


"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
barry b
Greenhorn

Joined: May 28, 2002
Posts: 13
The naming policy or the description of it has two fundamental flaws.
Firstly it is confused. In the FAQ section it says quite plainly that you need not use your real name. Then in a round about way it gets to say the same thing, use a real name, well maybe a shorter version if you have a long name, a near likeness and so on.
Secondly, its actually quite rude on the subject of cultural difference in naming. Offhand, I don't know which cultures only have one name, but the manner in which the topic is dealt with is lacking finesse. The typical technical lack of people handling. It reads poorly to ask people to sacrifice a piece of their culture to serve that of another.
Junilu Lacar
Bartender

Joined: Feb 26, 2001
Posts: 4445
    
    5

Originally posted by barry b:
The naming policy or the description of it has two fundamental flaws.

Well, "barry b", would you care to suggest alternative, less confused, friendlier wording?
Also, you might want to change you publicly displayed name to comply with the
naming policy (a single letter for the last name is not allowed) :roll: You can do that here. Thanks!


Junilu - [How to Ask Questions] [How to Answer Questions]
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
Originally posted by barry b:
Secondly, its actually quite rude on the subject of cultural difference in naming.

Actually, the way that I see it, YOU are being quite rude to not comply with the simple request of the man who owns this site. You are visiting HIS culture on his site, it would be polite to conform to his ideas of how to behave.


"JavaRanch, where the deer and the Certified play" - David O'Meara
Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9044
    
  10
Originally posted by barry b:
Firstly it is confused. In the FAQ section it says quite plainly that you need not use your real name. Then in a round about way it gets to say the same thing, use a real name, well maybe a shorter version if you have a long name, a near likeness and so on.


You need not use your real name. However, the display name you choose needs to look like a real name (not necessarily your own).
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20494
    ∞

Name shame is a terrible thing, eh?
Well, how about changing it to "Barry Brighton" or "Barry Bixby" or "Barry Benson" (these names are thanks to the phone book). You can pick any normal sounding last name you want.
I wrote the policy and it's no work of big money poetry, but I think it gets the idea across rather well. If there's something that you think could be phrased better, please let us know.
And the idea is something that I think is a big part of the success of JavaRanch. Sure, once in a while it rubs somebody the wrong way. But nearly all of those people conformed and I've gotten more than one e-mail from somebody saying that they hated it, but now they like it.


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Paul Samale
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 09, 2003
Posts: 2
This naming scheme is got to be one of the most illogical half baked ideas I have seen a web site do in a long time... For one, as Shakespeare wrote, "What's in a name?"
Second... this is a site for folks who code right? Well then, don't we all HATE naming restrictions on variables (yet agree naming standards are a good thing). Is a name nothing for a variable as we are (mostly) of type human?
In the preface for the site's author to ask others to forgo their cultures for this site is one of the most ludicrous and arrogant things I have ever seen... Umm...let's see, java culture is what 9 years old at best? Where as a West Bengalian (used for example only I have no idea how the Bengalese name themselves properly) naming convention of 1 name has been around for the last 10,000 years... Sure it makes sense for them to forgo that tradition to appease this site.
This makes me not want to post...
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20494
    ∞

"ludicrous and arrogant" works for me.
The concept of a last name has been around a bit longer than 9 years.
I've participated in on-line communities for decades and have run on-line communities for ... well, decades. It has been my impression that on-line communities that use a real name tend to be of a higher quality and more wholesome. Perhaps your experience is different. So when I installed forum software here, I decided to make it the suggested way to do things. When the variations started to be less than wholesome, I decided to make it a requirement. Since making it a requirement, I think the quality here is much higher. There are some sacrifices, but I think those sacrifices are worth it.
I think that asking somebody with just one name to come up with a last name isn't too big of a deal. A huge part of american culture is based on having a last name. Many people come from all over the world and participate in American culture and come up with a last name.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Well then, don't we all HATE naming restrictions on variables (yet agree naming standards are a good thing).
There you go! Naming standards are a good thing and JavaRanch has a naming standard. I don't think asking people to come up with two names is that big a deal. And it does tend to create a more professional atmosphere.
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
The naming policy makes people think a bit before posting, preventing flamewars from developing (or at least slowing them down).
It's also far nicer to address people by name rather than "MrXXXX666".
Of course there's (almost, obvious fakes excluded) no way for anyone (except personal associates of the person) to know if the selected name is actual or fake, but it adds to the atmosphere.


42
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20494
    ∞

I may have already mentioned this earlier ... I think one of the greatest benefits is that ability to be at some function where people are covered in name tags, or the name of the speaker is on the program and you already know that guy from JavaRanch.
I remember one time I was trying to recommend an on-line friend for a job, and it was mighty awkward because I didn't know the guy's real name - just his goofy on-line name.
Dan Kehn
Dastardly Dan the Author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 120
Originally posted by Rob Ross:
I have gotten serveral comments from coworkers about this site while at work. It does NOT present itself visually as a professional site when there is a cartoon picture of a moose with one eye on every page. And there is a fly buzzing around it too. Some people might find this cute, others might find it sick.

My wife thinks it's gross. I have a darker sense of humor yet I find it easy to appreciate her point.
Anyway, I wandered into this thread after reading a warning to a new member about the naming policy for the nth time. I've had to endure the same sort of sidelong glances and gentle ribbing about JavaRanch, essentially apologizing for having it on my display. Why office visitors insist on looking at my display, sometimes apparently reading my open e-mail, well that is another problem...
I like the metaphor and the naming policy is fine with me. However, even from across the room, this site does not look "serious" and I always assumed that was the point. That said, if there were a profile option to turn down the cuteness factor, I'd use it -- not because I don't appreciate it, but because I tire of co-workers' snide comments.
-- Dan


Co-author of <a href="http://www.jdg2e.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">The Java Developer's Guide to Eclipse</a>, 2nd Edition<br />(Yahoo group <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JDG2E/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">JDG2E</a>)
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

This naming scheme is got to be one of the most illogical half baked ideas I have seen a web site do in a long time... For one, as Shakespeare wrote, "What's in a name?"
That's a line spoken by a 14-year old boy in love with a girl whose family would rather see him dead. It really does matter what his name is, goes the actual moral. You can't wish away who you are or where you come from with a name change.
So maybe that's not the best example.
Second... this is a site for folks who code right? Well then, don't we all HATE naming restrictions on variables (yet agree naming standards are a good thing). Is a name nothing for a variable as we are (mostly) of type human?
This is a nice syllogism: since we are all coders, and coders hate naming restrictions on variables, coders must also hate being "stuck" with names.
Never mind the flawed premises. Saying a name is nothing but a variable is much like saying hamburger is just chopped steak. When you're trying to sell some old orange rinds and spices as a "steak sauce," that's about all you can say. So what are you trying to sell?
(F)or the site's author to ask others to forgo their cultures for this site is one of the most ludicrous and arrogant things I have ever seen...
Riiiiiight, but saying a name is a completely malleable value, that's preserving thousands of years of tradition.
Umm...let's see, java culture is what 9 years old at best? Where as a West Bengalian (used for example only I have no idea how the Bengalese name themselves properly) naming convention of 1 name has been around for the last 10,000 years... Sure it makes sense for them to forgo that tradition to appease this site.
Using that logic, we might as well throw away the ludicrous and arrogant Swing API in favor of the all-appeasing AWT, which honors the eons-old tradition of recognizing only one button on the mouse.
This makes me not want to post...
I hope you'll post more. This is fun.
[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

Make visible what, without you, might perhaps never have been seen.
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Ilja Preuss
author
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 14112
As I think about it, it's not *seriousness* which gets increased by the naming policy, but *responsibility*. It shouldn't hold you from posting fun messages (in fact they would be highly appreciated! ), but from starting flame wars and similar things we'd rather not want to see here...


The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny - it is the light that guides your way. - Heraclitus
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Good point, Ilja. It's hard to hide behind an internet identity when your real name is hanging out there.
Donald R. Cossitt
buckaroo
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 401
Sorry to ask this question late in the thread but:

I never said I didn't like the moose, I said it was unprofessional. If you have to scroll down to hide the moose, as I do, that should be a sign that the moose goes against stated goal of this site being a place where employers feel ok letting their employees use it at work.

Why would anyone NEED to scroll down past the moose - I don't get it


doco
Ilja Preuss
author
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 14112
This reminds me of the story in "Peopleware", where managers forbid to use the micro-wave for making popcorn, because popcorn was "unprofessional". :roll:
Amit Agrawal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 23, 2001
Posts: 282
Originally posted by Pauline McNamara:

I like the Moose - I scroll down fast to hide him at work.

I do exactly the same!!
Anyway, i believe that it gives the site an unprofessional look.
Ilja Preuss
author
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 14112
What definition of "professional" are you using?
Amit Agrawal
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 23, 2001
Posts: 282
Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:
What definition of "professional" are you using?

just that it gives looks of a fun/gaming site to the people who have never been to javaranch (and unfortunately my project manager is one of those guys).
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Perhaps you can incorporate two looks - one fun/gaming look as it is now and another professional look.
Then again , perhaps you should be working at work and gaming at home or on your laptop!
regards
[ October 16, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Naren
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 21, 2003
Posts: 23
I also got that "Naming Policy" message. I find 90% of the names here "fake" since I am not familiar with those type of names. I find the name of the guy (the moderator), who sent me that message, strange and fictitious.
Stupid naming policy and even more/worse stupid moderators chasing people and asking them to change their names. I don't see any difference in using "1234567890" or "Stevie Nicks" if both of them are not the true names of the user.
Instead of sending messages and harassing people, say something useful and contribute to the threads...


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Mark Spritzler
ranger
Sheriff

Joined: Feb 05, 2001
Posts: 17249
    
    6

Originally posted by Naren:
I also got that "Naming Policy" message. I find 90% of the names here "fake" since I am not familiar with those type of names. I find the name of the guy (the moderator), who sent me that message, strange and fictitious.
Stupid naming policy and even more/worse stupid moderators chasing people and asking them to change their names. I don't see any difference in using "1234567890" or "Stevie Nicks" if both of them are not the true names of the user.
Instead of sending messages and harassing people, say something useful and contribute to the threads...


Yes, some people have fictitious names, but I would say most do not, there are alot of bartenders for all over the world, so we can spot many fictitous names, or if we are not sure we ask each other, and someone usually states that it is fictitious if it is.
The personal touch of responding to someone with their real name, rather than a "Handle" is a huge part of what makes JavaRanch so amazing. And we find that those that have a problem with the naming policy, well have other issues, that really aren't related to the naming policy.

Mark


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Naren
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 21, 2003
Posts: 23
Why do these name change messages appear in the middle of the thread? I wish I had the power to move these messages to the forum "Control freaks asking you not be creative with your name" :roll:
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Naren, thank you for sharing your opinion of the JavaRanch naming standard. Since we have no intention of changing it and you apparently can not accept it I have closed your account. You may want to visit the Sun site as their forums have no naming requirements.
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20494
    ∞

I suppose one might say that this is a community built of 80% people that think everybody using their real name is the best way to go and 20% that don't agree with those people but comply to some degree.
There are communities that think the use of an alias is great. This just isn't one of them.
This forum, and specifically this thread, are here to give people a chance to persuade me to run things a different way. So far, calling my ideas stupid has not been very persuasive. So I think I will continue with the policy. At least for now.
Your decision is to find a form of compliance that you are comfortable with and continue to be a member of our community, or to find a community that is more of a fit for you.
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20494
    ∞

Originally posted by Naren:
Why do these name change messages appear in the middle of the thread? I wish I had the power to move these messages to the forum "Control freaks asking you not be creative with your name" :roll:

Once upon a time I made a dopey little web site with some dopey ideas about Java. I added a little here and a little there over time. One day I added some forum software so me and a few other geeks could talk about Java. More people came and talked. Having run forums in the past, I wanted to encourage people to use their real name because I beleive that doing so made a better community. Eventually, I made it a requirement.
More people came. And more. And more.
Some people were very helpful to others. I gave them additional access to the system figuring that such helpful people probably would not abuse the additional access to move threads to a more appropriate place and delete any less than friendly content. I asked these people to help me enforce my idea of the "real name" stuff.
So, I guess I'm the only control freak here. Everybody else is just exceptionally helpful and generous to others.
And it seems to me, that since I own the site, I think I have license to post what I want, where I want, when I want. And while I appreciate your suggestion on where I can put my posts, I think I would rather that you consider my request to modify your display name to comply with my request. That way, time spent saying "stop that!" can instead be spent helping others.
 
It is sorta covered in the JavaRanch Style Guide.
 
subject: Discussion of Naming Policy
 
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