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Intra Ranch Go Game!

Axel Janssen
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Originally posted by Ryan McGuire:

Second, are you sure? If I recall correctly, even that doesn't absolutely secure that corner once and for all. (I think White can still live in the corner if he can win a ko.)

In the first 200 moves of my go games, I am never really sure.
An attack in the corner would result in very few points for w and lots of thickness around for b, me thinks.
[ January 25, 2006: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Axel Janssen
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29. F3
intention is obvious.
Bert Bates
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30. f4

BTW, I think that maybe 27 should have been at c16 if you agree with playing in that area. e16 feels a little overconcentrated to me. Any thoughts?


Spot false dilemmas now, ask me how!
(If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
Nick George
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31. G4.

Are there any other options? 54 is a strange way to secure a corner, but strange things are fun.


I've heard it takes forever to grow a woman from the ground
Bert Bates
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32. f5

As far as black 27, were we letting black change his move from e16 to c16? I thought we were just discussing it I think 27 should be on e16 for the real game...did I miss something?

In terms of closing a corner with a 4-4 already in place, the 3-3 is possible but very defensive. It's good for beginners, or cases where the corner is heavily surrounded.
The next possibility is to add a 3-4 stone - this is the most common. A more advanced strategy is to add a 5-3 stone but it's tricky to know whether this really closes the corner. The 5-4 stone seems rare to me?
[ January 25, 2006: Message edited by: Bert Bates ]
Bert Bates
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Hey Roger,

Thanks for posting the diagrams, they're great! What software are you using to do that?
Axel Janssen
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Posts: 2164
The next morning 27 does appear a bit slow to me, too.
Somehow it solidifies black position on the corner, but there were greater moves for sure.
Black also has this base around J16, wich might be used to extend to the center.
I am not sure now. C6?. Or do you think its overplay?
[ January 25, 2006: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Nick George
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Meh, my instinct is to just follow joseki here with e3
Axel Janssen
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33. e3
Bert Bates
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34. d3

Since this is joseki so far, if black plays anywhere around j-k, 3-4 , white will play c7.
[ January 26, 2006: Message edited by: Bert Bates ]
Axel Janssen
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any opinions about p3?
Bert Bates
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Wow, black is thinking hard
Axel Janssen
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no chinese rancher or friend, uncle, grandpa, cousin, etc. who might be able to confine the white avalanche in certain acceptable limits
Else I would make next move tomorow morning (gmt + 1).

Axel
Nick George
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H3
Bert Bates
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36. c7 (gote)
Axel Janssen
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Bert, I have a question:
Do you think it would have been possible and a good idea for black to play c7 himself in move 35 to inhibit the build up of the huge white framework in the left lower corner?
[ January 28, 2006: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Nick George
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taking my sente to get a big point.

P3
Bert Bates
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Hey Axel,

It seems like there is usually a tradeoff when you ask yourself this kind of question. If black plays around c7 (I think I like maybe d7 a little better because it's easier to run away), it it breaks up white's side, AND it puts pressure on 28. Believe it or not, in my opinion, a black stone around d7 relates pretty well with the big black wall on the 16 line. So the tradeoff would be that the black stones around f3 will be very weak and attackable. So this is a really large scale kind of swap. Hmmm... I seem to be rambling a bit - I like your idea, and it has really big implications.

white will play:

38. p5
Nick George
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39 R2
Bert Bates
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40. r17 (let's see how the various corners relate to each other...)
Nick George
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yeah, yeah, yeah... this is a tough one...
Nick George
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that's Q17, not R17
Axel Janssen
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right upper corner is taken by w.
I would have played 39. O4.
Recommend Q17.
[ January 29, 2006: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Bert Bates
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Hi Roger,

I'm still interested in knowing what software you're using to supply us with these great diagrams!

Also, Axel, I agree that o4 or maybe n4 would have been better than r2 (BTW Roger it should be r2 not r3).
Roger Johnson
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WinMGT
Nick George
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Q17
Bert Bates
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q18, pretty much forced
Axel Janssen
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43 R16
I see a white r16 as a definitive no-fun move for b.
I am guessing, that b will defend r17 next.
General postition:
Left lower corner looks pretty thick & big. Very difficult to attack that position.
[ January 31, 2006: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Bert Bates
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s17 -

it seems black might have a bit more territory, but as is often the case, some of his groups are a little weak...
Axel Janssen
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what do you think about r11?
White can invade from the bottom (nr 44)
Or pressure from 2, 38.
But not both at the same time. The weak black group should survive.
S16 is a weak move in my opinion, because it has null threat on white.
Of course this all gives white stones in the other corner (2,38) good opportunities to become strong & big.
But something has to be done.
Else w Q12 might have claustrophobic effects on b.
[ January 31, 2006: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
Bert Bates
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I think you're on the right track Axel. Although there is a lot of open space on the right side, if you zoom out you kind of have a situation of one weak white group (in the lower right) between two weak black groups - which is usually good for the player with the single weak group. I think i hear you saying that you view the upper right group as the weaker of the two, and I concur!
Axel Janssen
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45. R11
I see no better move and it should help to safe the weakest group of black.
@Bert: I am enjoying the discussions. I have thought in the same direction and your comments offer not few bonus perspectives to read the game.
Ryan McGuire
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    3
I think White needs to concentrate on the corner with 2 and 38 and ignore 10 for now. Luckily, Black 45 still isn't what I'd consider strong. I think a shoulder hit of Q10 would both help the White corner AND put pressure on Black's group.

What about the sequence 47(Black)@R10, 48@R9, 49@Q11, 50@Q9 or Q8? It looks like Black has sente after the exchange, but White has strengthened his corner while Black still has two weak groups. (White 40 threatens the eyespace underneath and White 10 is the start of smothering it from above.)

Would Black cut with 49@Q9. I don't think 45 is strong enough to support that.

On a side note... I would like to cut between 9 and 45, but I can't see a way that doesn't end in a ladder that White loses because of Black 31 and 35.

I'd also love a chance to play N3 and K3 at some point.

And lastly, the approach at C14 or invasion at C16 or C17 is still open.
I'll let someone with more guts than I make the decision.
Bert Bates
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Lots of interesting ideas here Ryan -

Here's what I'd say:

First off, the white group 2&38 is chase-able, but not killable, because of miai again ( a choice) - white can run into the center OR up the right side, so if black pushes one way white can run the other. But - we don't really want to let black push us around. So whatever we do we should probably try to avoid getting pushed around.

As far as the r10, r9, q11, etc. sequence, it's an okay sequence, but I think it's not the best strategy in this situation. There is a go proverb that says soemthing like "attack from a distance, if you want to defend, attach". So r10 is an attachment to the r11 stone - it might look like an attack on black but strangley it's actually a defensive move. I'm guessing that your idea is to attack black, which is a good idea, but attaching isn't generally the best way to attack.

As far as the shoulder hit of q10, that's also a good idea and I think it should be compared with something like r8 or r9. If we play q10, we're emphasizing the center (and we have 10 and 38 to support this idea). q10 invites black to slip down the right side with something like r10 or s9 - this is a standard kind of exchange - "i'll take the center you take the edge". The other idea in this area is something like r8 or r9 wich says "I want the lower right side, and the center is not so important". I think both of these ideas are valid.

As far as cutting between 9 and 45, there is a way to do that, but the question is what's your goal? A good rule of thumb is that when you attack a group, the goal isn't to kill it, but to push it around. So imagine you cut between 9 and 45, what direction do you want to push black? to the center or to the edge? Once eyou have your goal in mind you can decide which way to cut.

c16-c17 is a big point from a territory perspective, but it's not really an attack or an invasion - it's a big swing of territory for either white or black, but it doesn't really start an attack for either side - because both groups are already pretty strong.

The area around n3 and k3 is also VERY interesting - you have a good sense of pivotal points on the board - there is a huge swing of influence depending on whether black plays maybe n4 first, or whether white plays maybe n4 first.

So i think white should decide between c16-17 or n4ish, or r8-r9 or q10 - but someone else should decide Any of them would be fun to pursue...
Ryan McGuire
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    3
Originally posted by Bert Bates:
Lots of interesting ideas here Ryan -
...
As far as the r10, r9, q11, etc. sequence, it's an okay sequence, but I think it's not the best strategy in this situation. There is a go proverb that says soemthing like "attack from a distance, if you want to defend, attach". So r10 is an attachment to the r11 stone - it might look like an attack on black but strangley it's actually a defensive move. I'm guessing that your idea is to attack black, which is a good idea, but attaching isn't generally the best way to attack.

As far as the shoulder hit of q10, that's also a good idea and I think it should be compared with something like r8 or r9. If we play q10, we're emphasizing the center (and we have 10 and 38 to support this idea). q10 invites black to slip down the right side with something like r10 or s9 - this is a standard kind of exchange - "i'll take the center you take the edge". The other idea in this area is something like r8 or r9 wich says "I want the lower right side, and the center is not so important". I think both of these ideas are valid.


I meant Black at R10 and the rest of that sequence in my second paragraph might be one of Black's possible responses to White @ Q10 from the first paragraph. I agree that White at R10 right now would be ill-advised.

Since you think q10 might be fun, I'll go ahead and make that move official.

Ahem... test test 1 2... is this thing on?... *tap tap* *feedback*

46. White at Q10.
[ February 01, 2006: Message edited by: Ryan McGuire ]
Bert Bates
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wow - black is really thinking hard!
Axel Janssen
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Posts: 2164
black
47. s9
Bert Bates
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r8
Axel Janssen
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49. s8
Bert Bates
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Sheriff

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n4 - trying to be consistent with the earlier stones - and resisting the strong urge to defend on the right side
 
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