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Java Beginner to Programmer

Clarence Huang
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 30, 2010
Posts: 6
Mahesh Kedari wrote:Guys, you might be confusing Clarence. with such a big discussion on this topic..

Clarence, go for this.
Start with hello world program (Almost 80% programmers start with the same program, dont know why )
Use google if you dont have money, there are many free resources for beginners available on net...
Also you can use Google Books with limited view so, you can read quality books, without piracy.

Thanks!
Gaurav Raje
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 23, 2010
Posts: 136
Clarence Blumstein wrote:I have no money to buy the book now


Ernest Friedman-Hill wrote:Then you'll need to wait.


I know i might offend quite a few people and souls on this forum by this reply, but here is something you can do. Try mailing the author of the book. Let them know that you are sorry that you have to resort to piracy in order to purchase a book. Also, consider this piracy as a loan which you have taken from the authors and publishers. Bear in mind what you are doing is illegal. As soon as you are done with your certification and have a job in hand, you can buy the book. This way the authors and the publishers get back the amount you owed them.

Again i repeat, you are doing something illegal. But i know just how it feels if you want to gain knowledge and money is an important factor in the process. Coming from a poor environment, i too had to bow down a few times in order to learn. And quite frankly i didnot feel too good about it. But i am sure most of the people in the industry are kind. I remember a friend of mine who couldnot afford a book and followed a similar path. in 15 days, the author of the book had mailed him 3 books, his own as well as 2 reference books which he felt would help.

Make sure you put yourself in place of the author. If you wrote a book and got nothing in return, not even recognition, would nt you be angry?

again... these are my views... i am open to debate.... (which doesnot hijack the thread or else the sheriffs will ban me )......


Also a few things

"Thinking in java" has a free licensed ebook available online provided by some university for learning purposes. Google it. You will find it.

W. Joe Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 710
Gaurav Raje wrote:
Clarence Blumstein wrote:I have no money to buy the book now


Ernest Friedman-Hill wrote:Then you'll need to wait.


I know i might offend quite a few people and souls on this forum by this reply, but here is something you can do. Try mailing the author of the book. Let them know that you are sorry that you have to resort to piracy in order to purchase a book. Also, consider this piracy as a loan which you have taken from the authors and publishers.



Not sure how others will feel, but I see this as the same thing as just downloading the book, except with a "feel good" plan to pay the author. To me, this is the same as taking a new car from a car lot and leaving a note saying "Sorry, needed a ride. IOU price of the car." Especially since there are a ton of free legal online resources, I see no reason why anyone should download the book, even with the intention of paying for it later.


SCJA
When I die, I want people to look at me and say "Yeah, he might have been crazy, but that was one zarkin frood that knew where his towel was."
Gaurav Raje
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 23, 2010
Posts: 136
as i said... its not the best option.... but better than just picking up the book.....

unfortunately a lot of people (more than half the globe) earn less than a dollar a day(International poverty line). I know how important ethics are, but my only point is if you put yourself in their place, there would never be any way in which these guys will ever be able to afford books. This is what is giving rise to piracy.

I am in no ways encouraging it, but I just feel that there should be some way in which the books are available at a similar value(not the absolute rate but a relative value) to everyone. ....

Fortunately for me, the Indian government realized this and a few private companies are providing subsidized versions of these books. But in many countries this is not the case. For them, buying a book worth 150$ is equal to spending half their annual income. For these guys, I believe the approach which i mentioned might not be as bad as it feels through our perspective.

Again in no ways do i support any form of piracy especially if you can afford the books. Just wanted a few authors to join me in creating some awareness in this avenue.
David Newton
Author
Rancher

Joined: Sep 29, 2008
Posts: 12617

I guess my response would be that if they have access to the internet, there are more legitimate means of education available... but I'm kind of on the fence about it.

The bottom line is that if I couldn't afford educational materials, I would go to great lengths to get them, including theft of e-materials. I would not be *proud* of it, and I would give back in whatever way I could (contribution to said materials, additional documentation, open-source projects, whatever). But I would exhaust legitimate means before I went that far--and there is a *lot* of free material available.

There is a big disparity in income and access to training materials, and this is a Bad Thing.
W. Joe Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 710
David Newton wrote:I guess my response would be that if they have access to the internet, there are more legitimate means of education available... but I'm kind of on the fence about it.

The bottom line is that if I couldn't afford educational materials, I would go to great lengths to get them, including theft of e-materials. I would not be *proud* of it, and I would give back in whatever way I could (contribution to said materials, additional documentation, open-source projects, whatever). But I would exhaust legitimate means before I went that far--and there is a *lot* of free material available.

There is a big disparity in income and access to training materials, and this is a Bad Thing.


I'd weigh in on this, but I really think this conversation is going to hijack this thread. Maybe a break off of this thread would be more appropriate for this discussion.
Neil Cartmell
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 13, 2010
Posts: 150
W. Joe Smith wrote:
To me, this is the same as taking a new car from a car lot and leaving a note saying "Sorry, needed a ride. IOU price of the car."


Just wanted to make a quick point. I disagree with this as I think downloading a book for free is equivalent of you having magic powers that could duplicate any item you touched, then magically duplicating the car and taking home a copy of the car, leaving the original car in the lot to be sold. Therefore having exactly the same affect on the car lot owner as if you just didn't buy the car cause you couldn't afford it and walked away.

Although I will point out that i don't illegally download books. Mainly because i like the idea of people being able to make a good living doing something they love.
Jesper de Jong
Java Cowboy
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Aug 16, 2005
Posts: 14435
    
  23

Gaurav Raje wrote:I know i might offend quite a few people and souls on this forum by this reply, but here is something you can do. Try mailing the author of the book. Let them know that you are sorry that you have to resort to piracy in order to purchase a book.

This is nonsense. It's like going to a shop and telling the shop owner "You have to give me this article for free, or otherwise I'm forced to steal it! It's not my reponsibility that I have to steal it!".


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Gaurav Raje
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 23, 2010
Posts: 136
as i said... it might not be the best option... But its the only option some of the people have.....
Gaurav Raje
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 23, 2010
Posts: 136
as for the abundant free online tutorials available.... Well, i would agree with it. But dont you think it is a little unfair. People with money end up getting the best resources(which they can easily afford). Extend their knowledge, become better. Poor people have to spend a looot of time searching for everything. And have to put in a significantly higher effort, end up not being as good. The gap keeps increasing.

Think about it. Especially those who have attended school in US or other developed countries. I agree there is a lot of reference material, But as the name suggests, its still reference material. May not cover everything, may have a lot of issues. Unlike a book which is systematically compiled and explained. Most of the people who recommend online tutorials do so because they already have books.


It might probably be difficult to imagine for people who always had the resources to buy books. Ethics are easy to follow if you have the resources and options. They become significantly difficult otherwise
David Newton
Author
Rancher

Joined: Sep 29, 2008
Posts: 12617

Do not make the mistake of assuming I don't know what you're talking about, don't have a firm grasp on the issue, and don't spend a lot of my time and effort doing what I can to resolve issues like this. Nor should you assume that only "poor" people spend a lot of time searching for information; the phrase "Google Oriented Programming" exists for a legitimate reason.

I disagree pretty strongly that the knowledge gap is increasing, however; I'd argue the exact opposite, for precisely the reasons we've already covered: access to information is increasing at an accelerating rate. And there is a lot more available than just "reference" material, including free books, online college courses, etc.
Campbell Ritchie
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 40064
    
  28
W. Joe Smith wrote: . . . I really think this conversation is going to hijack this thread. . . .
I take your point, but somehow the thread has naturally taken up another interesting topic. I think I shall leave it.

I might be mistaken, but I am on this forum to get things wrong
W. Joe Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 10, 2009
Posts: 710
Gaurav Raje wrote:as for the abundant free online tutorials available.... Well, i would agree with it. But dont you think it is a little unfair. People with money end up getting the best resources(which they can easily afford). Extend their knowledge, become better. Poor people have to spend a looot of time searching for everything.


I know I don't qualify as a poor person, but in extending my knowledge I spend a lot of time searching. I know people that, using only free tutorials, have taught themselves all kinds of things. Admittedly I will say that there are excellent paid resources that poorer people do not have access to, but nowadays quality information is far more widely available than before. I mean JavaRanch is an excellent resource, and free to boot!

It might probably be difficult to imagine for people who always had the resources to buy books. Ethics are easy to follow if you have the resources and options. They become significantly difficult otherwise


We aren't talking about stealing the basics of life (food, water, shelter), we are talking about theft of intellectual property. It is one thing if people are starving and steal food in order to survive; if people are stealing a book to learn how to program odds are have a computer. Even as a computer programmer by profession, I cannot say a computer is a necessity in today's world. If someone has a computer I have a hard time believing they can't legally acquire the book. And if they are using public resources (library, some other place with free computer access), as it has been said before, there are plenty of free, high quality resources online.
Sridhar Santhanakrishnan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 20, 2007
Posts: 317
W. Joe Smith wrote:
If someone has a computer I have a hard time believing they can't legally acquire the book.


There is also the temptation to go for the easier way out. It would take quite lot of will power and ethics to actually buy it, rather than accept the freebie. It does happen, but not quite often.
 
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