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windows vs mac

Pat Farrell
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Joined: Aug 11, 2007
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    5

Bear Bibeault wrote:The gestures may take some a time to get used to, but once they become 2nd nature, they're incredibly useful.


Is there any documentation on this user-hostile user interface? I've tried the "its obvious" approach, and frankly that leaves a ton to be desired.

Bear Bibeault wrote:I can understand your frustration, Pat. You feel that you are forced into using an OS that you don't really want to use, and don't want to have to learn new ways of doing things. I'm sure I'd feel the same way if I were forced to use Ubuntu as a desktop.


I have no problems learning new things. Going from Tops-20 to VMS to Unix to crude DOS was learning. Going from Fortan to Macro to Bliss to Cobol to Smalltalk was learning. But my learning curve on this OS is a cliff. I'm frustrated by all the mac fanboys saying "its easy" when it sure is not easy for me.

On topic, any comparison of Windows vs OS-X (I have no idea why people thinks its Windows vs Mac, that's like "Dell vs OS-X" completely lacking in parallel structure.), you can't approach it as if there is no prior experience. The vast majority of the world's computer users are on Windows, with OS-X share in single digits and Linux far lower (on the desktop). So a typical user is going to have Windows experience, not Linux or OS-X. Any claim for superiority in choosing or switching has to include the learning curve.

If one is talking about after the learning curve is over, then its pointless to argue which is better, you are already pregnant.
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
Marshal

Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 61648
    
  67

Pat Farrell wrote:Is there any documentation on this user-hostile user interface?

You mean Farrell-hostile interface? Most people love the gestures. Your wording reveals your unwillingness to even try to accept it.

And yes, right in the System Prefs for the Trackpad, there's video help that shows the gestures and how they work. Hardly what I'd consider "user-hostile".



If you don't like the gestures, then don't use them rather than deriding them. There are keyboard equivalents for most of them.


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Pat Farrell
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    5

Bear Bibeault wrote:You mean Farrell-hostile interface? Most people love the gestures. Your wording reveals your unwillingness to even try to accept it.

No, seriously, I can't find any useful information about how this is all supposed to work. I've been trying for ten weeks so far, its the only computer that I use for 99% of my work. Its not that I'm dabbling and whining. I'm using it and frustrated. Thanks for the video link, but I don't like video. I can read a lot faster than some one can show me things. Some things are better as Guttenberg made them. Having a video is not a substitute for well written documentation.

Another trivial example: I used the page-up and page-down, end and home buttons all the time. They are gone from the Mac keyboard. I have yet to find any equivalent after much googling. I am learning to live without a delete forward key, but I fail to understand why that one was removed.

The F9/F11 function button fails in Netbeans to compile code. I do this hundreds if not thousands of times a day. I use Netbeans and Java because they are machine independent. But they operate differently under OS-X.
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15299
    
    6

cmd+up arrow = pageup
cmd+down arrow = pagedown
cmd+right arrow = end
cmd+left arrow = home
fn+delete = forward delete


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Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
Marshal

Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 61648
    
  67

I think most people would find a few seconds of video on a gesture more instructive than a text description of same, but to each.
Andrew Monkhouse
author and jackaroo
Marshal Commander

Joined: Mar 28, 2003
Posts: 11506
    
  95

Pat Farrell wrote:
Mark Spritzler wrote:It is exactly like it is in Windows. In Windows you hit CTRL-TAB, on Mac CMD-TAB.

Of course, I use Command-Tab, but its not exactly like Winders or Ubuntu. It will show you all of the running programs, but it won't switch to those minimized. And worse, when you have multiple windows open for the same program (say multiple Terminal windows or the main Thunderbird window plus a compose window) it only switches to one, not all of that program.

Once again, this is more of a mindset difference.

If you want to use a mouse to minimize a window, then go ahead. Then use the mouse to bring it back up. (I suspect there is probably a Quicksilver way of doing it using the keyboard as well).

If you want to use your keyboard, the Cmd-H will hide the application for you, and you can then Cmd-Tab to get back to it.

What would be the point in having Cmd-Tab go through all the open windows of an application? If I have 10 Microsoft Word windows open, and 10 Microsoft Excel windows open, why would I want to tab past 20 identical icons to get to the IntelliJ icon?

The Mac way is much simpler - have a single icon per application. I see that Microsoft have finally realized how valuable this is, and they copied the functionality in reducing icons in the task bar. Once you have your application as the front-most application, you can Cmd-` to switch between windows of that application.


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Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4659
    
    5

Gregg Bolinger wrote:cmd+up arrow = pageup
cmd+down arrow = pagedown
cmd+right arrow = end
cmd+left arrow = home
fn+delete = forward delete


Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Charles Paldino
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 23, 2010
Posts: 8
Rule of thumb: If you have to emulate another operating system to do stuff, you should probably stop using your current one.

Pat Farrell wrote:
The F9/F11 function button fails in Netbeans to compile code. I do this hundreds if not thousands of times a day. I use Netbeans and Java because they are machine independent. But they operate differently under OS-X.


Apple does its own version of java......which kind of defeats the purpose of java.

Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4659
    
    5

Bear Bibeault wrote:I think most people would find a few seconds of video on a gesture more instructive than a text description of same, but to each.


I don't think its a you say Poe-tay-toe, I say pah-tat-oh thing. To me, there is a whole karma about how magical the magic touch is. I've had friends who are mac fanboys show me. It looks fine. Even had them use my MacBook Pro. But two minutes later, I have no idea which motion does anything, and 90% of the motions I try seem to do either nothing or something that seems bizarre.

There has to be a method to this. It can't just be random motions. But I've not seen anything that describes what its trying to do, how they are related, and thus how it all makes sense.
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4659
    
    5

Charles Paldino wrote:Rule of thumb: If you have to emulate another operating system to do stuff, you should probably stop using your current one.


Charles, are you saying that because Windows and Linux allow Netbeans to work one way, and OS-X does it differently, one can say OS-X is worse than Windows?

While part of me would love to go back to Ubuntu, I'm a pro, and I need to stay facile with the currently hot tools. In the spaces where I work, that means developing for the Apple IOS platforms today. I've got a lot of Java code that I've written and have places as open source, and I still want to be able to hack out things in Java -- I'm tons more productive in Java than I am in Objective-C today.

While technically one can run Windows 7 under OS-X, using any of a number of VM products, even Parallels, I don't see that as a realistic option for me.
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
Marshal

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Posts: 61648
    
  67

Charles Paldino wrote:Apple does its own version of java......which kind of defeats the purpose of java.

Ummm, there are many implementations of Java. That's the whole purpose of Java. What the heck is your point because you're sure not making it.
Jesper de Jong
Java Cowboy
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Joined: Aug 16, 2005
Posts: 14345
    
  22

Some other little things that I find bothersome in OS X:

  • Windows don't have normal maximize buttons. There's a "+" button on the top left, but it doesn't mean "maximize", it means "optimize" the size of the window (and what is "optimal" is left up to the particular program). Often this doesn't do what you expect and what it does is often not useful at all. How do you maximize (not "optimize") windows?
  • As I already wrote earlier, Finder does have a right-click / copy action and a right-click / paste action to copy files, but there doesn't seem to be a right-click / cut action. How do you move (not copy) files on OS X easily? (Dragging from one window to another with the mouse button pressed is not easy at all if you're using the touchpad).

  • I do like the touchpad on my MacBook Pro and the gestures work nicely once you learn them.

    I don't find OS X more user-friendly or more intuitive than Windows or the GNOME desktop (which is what I'm using on Ubuntu). It's just a matter of what you're used to - you probably think that what you're used to is more user-friendly and intuitive than anything else, just because that's what's in your head and fingers.

    Charles Paldino wrote:Apple does its own version of java......which kind of defeats the purpose of java.

    Apple has its own implementation of the JVM, but ofcourse not its own version of Java which is incompatible with standard Java. (If they did, they would not be allowed to call it "Java"). As Bear said, there is nothing wrong with that. Many other manufacturers (HP, IBM etc.) have their own JVM implementations. There is nothing in that that "defeats the purpose of Java".

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    Bert Bates
    author
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    Joined: Oct 14, 2002
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        5
    There's a feeling I get whenever I use windows that's hard to pin down. It's kind of a feeling of "invasiveness". Like somehow I feel M$ is looking over my shoulder, and it's hiding stuff, and in an attempt to shield me from the harsh realities of my computer it's actually making things worse. It's kind of a "we know better than you" mentality.

    Somehow there's also the pervasive feeling that somehow M$ is always trying to get into my wallet. With OS X, once the machine is bought, I don't feel that money pressure anymore.

    Again, hard to point to any one thing in general, it's more like a subtle difference in the philosophical approaches of the two companies that somehow bubbles up through their respective OS's.


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    Gregg Bolinger
    GenRocket Founder
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        6

    So historically, new version of Windows would show up about the same time as a boom in new hardware. And when buying a new PC it always seemed like you got Windows for free because, well, it comes with the new PC. And in a way you do. Its subsidized. And what is painfully true is that with every major new Windows version you did need a new PC because they required more and more resources. Windows 7 kind of went against that grain because it actually is loads better than Vista.

    And if you do by chance just want to upgrade your Windows OS without buying a new PC, you not only get to pay a premium price for it, but you also get the confusion of trying to choose between a minimum of 4 different versions.

    Compare that to OSX where there is 1 version and it costs roughly $30 (at least the last 2 versions did and Lion will be priced the same). And since going to Intel based systems, you can really stretch out the use of Mac hardware for a long time over multiple OS upgrades.
    Andrew Monkhouse
    author and jackaroo
    Marshal Commander

    Joined: Mar 28, 2003
    Posts: 11506
        
      95

    Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:Does anyone know of anything on the horizon that points toward it being better to wait 6-12 months before getting a new laptop? I haven't read about any new hardware leaps, but wanted to ask.

    If you haven't heard, the next version of Mac OS/X will be available in July for $29.99. If you are still considering a Mac, then you should find out if the store will provide a free upgrade when the new OS comes out (from memory, they have in the past).
    Gregg Bolinger
    GenRocket Founder
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    Andrew Monkhouse wrote:
    Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:Does anyone know of anything on the horizon that points toward it being better to wait 6-12 months before getting a new laptop? I haven't read about any new hardware leaps, but wanted to ask.

    If you haven't heard, the next version of Mac OS/X will be available in July for $29.99. If you are still considering a Mac, then you should find out if the store will provide a free upgrade when the new OS comes out (from memory, they have in the past).


    They will provide a free upgrade if you purchase a new mac now. That has already been confirmed.
    Jeanne Boyarsky
    author & internet detective
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    Conclusion: I'm buying a Mac. People have convinced me to buy a better model than I was originally considering.

    Now looking at MacBook Pro - 15 inch screen, 2.0 GHZ quad core machine and paying extra to double the RAM to 8GB. The one to one support thing sounds like a rip off, but I trust y'all to tell me if I'm wrong.

    I'm going to the Apple store to look at it in person/ask some questions and will then buy it an a week or two.

    And the story with my mother: she turned out to have no opinion on her next computer at all. As long as I set it up and show her how to get online and answer questions, she is happy. Which means I'll either get her the Google browser in a box or an entry level Mac next year. No need to run Windows in a VM as I can keep my old XP box until I get her upgrade.


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    Maneesh Godbole
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        9

    Jesper wrote:How do you maximize (not "optimize") windows?

    Just Right Zoom it.

    I got only two cribs about the Mac
    1) The dock does not overlap the window as in say Compiz on Ubuntu. Wastes real estate.
    2) I cannot "right click" using the keyboard.


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    Jesper de Jong
    Java Cowboy
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      22

    Thanks Maneesh, I'm going to try that out.

    Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:Now looking at MacBook Pro - 15 inch screen, 2.0 GHZ quad core machine and paying extra to double the RAM to 8GB. The one to one support thing sounds like a rip off, but I trust y'all to tell me if I'm wrong.

    That's a nice machine, I'm sure you're going to like it. The extra insurance from Apple is expensive, I did buy it because I use my MacBook Pro for work and it would be a problem if I'd have to send it somewhere and be without it for weeks if something would be wrong with it. I'm also curious to hear from others whether they think the extra insurance is worth it.

    Bert Bates wrote:There's a feeling I get whenever I use windows that's hard to pin down. It's kind of a feeling of "invasiveness". Like somehow I feel M$ is looking over my shoulder, and it's hiding stuff, and in an attempt to shield me from the harsh realities of my computer it's actually making things worse. It's kind of a "we know better than you" mentality.

    If there's one company from which I get the "we know better than you" feeling, then that would be Apple! Steve Jobs says you need only one button on your mouse, so that's what you're going to get. Steve Jobs decides for you what you can and cannot do with your iPhone. Doesn't matter how many users complain they cannot do "X", when Steve has decided that "X" is not good, you're not going to get it. It even goes so far that the complainers become convinced, against their own common sense, that "X" is indeed not good and that you shouldn't want "X" and they start trying to convince others that you don't want "X". Welcome to the cult of Apple...
    Jesper de Jong
    Java Cowboy
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      22

    Bert Bates wrote:Somehow there's also the pervasive feeling that somehow M$ is always trying to get into my wallet. With OS X, once the machine is bought, I don't feel that money pressure anymore.

    Apple also loves to get into your wallet, for example if you want to develop apps for the iPhone. Even if you create free apps, you must pay Apple $99 per year to have your app available in the app store.
    Jeanne Boyarsky
    author & internet detective
    Marshal

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    158

    Jesper de Jong wrote:If there's one company from which I get the "we know better than you" feeling, then that would be Apple!

    So true. I bought the laptop tonight and am picking it up tomorrow. (takes 4 hours to put in the RAM.)

    All my further questions will be in the Mac forum where they belong .
    Jeanne Boyarsky
    author & internet detective
    Marshal

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    Posting from the Mac.

    Thanks for all the help. I've given this thread credit in my blog post on the topic:
    http://www.selikoff.net/2011/06/09/my-first-mac-in-12-years/
    Bear Bibeault
    Author and ninkuma
    Marshal

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      67

    Enjoy!
    Saurabh Pillai
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Sep 12, 2008
    Posts: 509
    Hello Jeanne,

    Which mac machine did you buy? Can you please share a link?
    Jeanne Boyarsky
    author & internet detective
    Marshal

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    Saurabh Pillai wrote:Hello Jeanne,

    Which mac machine did you buy? Can you please share a link?


    The link is my blog post. Here's a snippet from it where I say the details:

    Because what kind of tech blog doesn’t post the details:

    15 inch monitor
    2 GHz quad core processort
    8 GB RAM (my previous machine only had 1 GB and RAM is my constraining force. Granted my previous computer was six years old.)

     
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    subject: windows vs mac