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Java seems like a technology no one wants to use

 
Jay Orsaw
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Pat Farrell wrote:
Jay Orsaw wrote:.... and most programs are written in C. People hate on Java because of the JVM


I completely reject your first assertion. Last time I checked, most programs were still written in Fortran, because it has a 30 year head start over even C.

People who "hate on" java because of the JVM are, at best, uninformed. The JVM is the best thing about Java, and will long out live Java the language. The JVM lets folks write clear, simple code that performs as well as the best, hand optimized C -- which can't be read or understood by anyone because its so optimized.


Okay, so you're saying right now that most programs are written in Fortran? I'd actually be interested to see what the truth is, because I figured C++ would be what most applications right now are in(and more and more moving to Java).

Yes, there is tons of misinformation out there, a kid in my class said that Java sucks because there are no "pointers." I had to laugh because seriously pointers? Yeah they are cool, but not needed, and you can seriously mess up if you point to the wrong place, Java does all that automatically(that's what I heard anyway). I would assume that method calls would be the same as a pointer if you're trying to just access some code, now if it's a pointer to memory I'm not too sure... Either way though to say a language sucks because it doesn't have pointers is laughable... But also the kid raved about Python because his comp sci 2 professor loves Linux and Python, but I usually take Linux head's ideology with a grain of salt( no offense to anyone who likes linux, but the kids I always deal with always stick to their one OS and anything that has to do with their OS is the best.... LOL).
 
Pat Farrell
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Jay Orsaw wrote:Okay, so you're saying right now that most programs are written in Fortran? I'd actually be interested to see what the truth is, because I figured C++ would be what most applications right now are in(and more and more moving to Java).


That was the statistic last time I checked ( it was about 4 years ago). Meaning "most programs still being run" in an active langauge. The engineers and scientists use a ton of Fortran.

The problem is that Java and C and many other modern languages don't have Complex data types, and that is what makes engineering work.
All of electrical engineering uses complex data. And all of the fancy stuff in other fields


Jay Orsaw wrote:Yes, there is tons of misinformation out there, a kid in my class said that Java sucks because there are no "pointers." I had to laugh because seriously pointers? ....Java does all that automatically(that's what I heard anyway).


Pointers are cool, So is juggling a loaded machine gun that has been covered in grease. Java has no pointers because References do much of the same things without the danger. Every variable for a Java object is a reference. (not so the legacy int, float, etc.).

Every technology gets fanboi love and becomes religious.
 
Jay Orsaw
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Pat Farrell wrote:
Jay Orsaw wrote:Okay, so you're saying right now that most programs are written in Fortran? I'd actually be interested to see what the truth is, because I figured C++ would be what most applications right now are in(and more and more moving to Java).


That was the statistic last time I checked ( it was about 4 years ago). Meaning "most programs still being run" in an active langauge. The engineers and scientists use a ton of Fortran.

The problem is that Java and C and many other modern languages don't have Complex data types, and that is what makes engineering work.
All of electrical engineering uses complex data. And all of the fancy stuff in other fields


Jay Orsaw wrote:Yes, there is tons of misinformation out there, a kid in my class said that Java sucks because there are no "pointers." I had to laugh because seriously pointers? ....Java does all that automatically(that's what I heard anyway).


Pointers are cool, So is juggling a loaded machine gun that has been covered in grease. Java has no pointers because References do much of the same things without the danger. Every variable for a Java object is a reference. (not so the legacy int, float, etc.).

Every technology gets fanboi love and becomes religious.


Yeah for sure engineers and such still use it(My father used to use it), but I figured the desktop applications and such would outweigh that, which I would assume as a high % in C/C++, but I cannot argue with no data . I didn't, however, think about a lot of the equipment and such that people use, more so the stuff that we desktop computer people use. I know they still teach Fortran in school as well.

That's hilarious, and yes I agree no danger = better IMO, even at the cost of SLIGHT overhead( I would assume)...

Yup everyone will love something for any random reason, but I just thought it was funny that he and a few others were all in love with Python(without EVER coding in it[I think]) just because their professor talked it up. When this dude was arguing with another guy in the Comp Sci club at school, he was just trashing Java, mentioned pointers once, and something about it being slow... I was going to ask him(even though I didn't want to get into the drama) how much experience does he have that he made such a conclusion(I would guess since he's in Comp sci 2, it would be his second semester coding).... Always gotta laugh at those who have no idea what they are talking about, especially with no experience/reason to back it up.
 
Pat Farrell
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Jay Orsaw wrote: Always gotta laugh at those who have no idea what they are talking about, especially with no experience/reason to back it up.

That is what fanboi's do.

My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts.

Pythons is not a bad language, I like it for some stuff.
 
Winston Gutkowski
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john price wrote:I'm talking about major corporations like Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, Twitter etc. I do know that Twitters servers are partly/all Java servers. I would like to see client examples, not server examples...

I think that's already been covered; and it's probably worth noting that MS (one of the largest of the corps you listed) have a vested interest in not using Java, since
(a) They lost a huge lawsuit about it.
(b) It's a direct competitor to their own (and in my view, inferior) C-style language.
and
(c) It's a threat to their virtual monopoly of desktop systems, since Java is designed from the ground up to be platform-independent (and, despite all MS's claims of the PI capabilities of .NET, still way ahead of any of its languages in that respect). I, for one, hope that systems like Linux Mint will start to make real inroads into MS's complacency on that front, because as an OS it's way better than Windows.

TIOBE suggests that, indeed, the trend for Java is basically downward, but that it's likely to level out soon. It's also worth noting that it's the general trend for other major languages like C++ and VB, and only bucked by C# and Objective C, both of which still have a tiny market share compared to C and Java.

Winston
 
dennis deems
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Wendy Gibbons wrote:
Tim McGuire wrote:At my workplace, we find that intermediate level java programmers are hard to find at an affordable price in spite of the economy. We can't seem to hire one to save our lives! ... When I think "expert", I think, "re-engineer hibernate to make it more efficient" .

to bastardize my favourite book
well I am surprised at your knowing so many experts, not that you know so few.

Ha, I only just now saw this! It's my favorite book, too! :)
 
Steve Stevenson
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't now, 2012, actually the best time to get into Java? Smartphones are exploding in popularity, and aren't all (or at least most) Android apps built in Java? Other devices are getting smarter too: my Blu-ray player has apps and a lot of new TVs are being designed for apps too. Even the desktop world seems more diverse in their OSes and the primary goal of Java was to be a device-independent programming language.

15 years ago I could see Java being more of a niche thing since the computerized products for the mass public were either Windows, gaming consoles with proprietary OSes, or dedicated devices that did little other than their core functions (brick phones, DVD players, etc).

I've actually been out of the programming world for 4 years and decided to get back in and intentionally chose NOT to pursue my old Microsoft-oriented Visual C++ path and those reasons I mentioned played a big role in my looking into the Java-route instead.
 
Pat Farrell
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Steve Stevenson wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't now, 2012, actually the best time to get into Java?


Perhaps. I agree that smartphones and tablets are where all the action is, and that is where a developer can write an "app" and make huge amounts of money. Not to say that there isn't a lot of life left in writing the web servers that all these apps talk to.

The problem is that Java is the language of choice for Android phones and tablets. But for IOS phones and tablets, you have to use Apple's tools, specifically Objective-C. Its simply not feasible to "write once, run anywhere" in this market. You really have to implement your solution twice, once in Objective-C for IOS and once in Java for Android.

There is a fair amount of common philosophy in writing for the IOS frameworks and writing Java for Android, but the details and code are separate.

Normally, writing two versions of a single program in two different languages for two different operating systems is three times as much work as doing it once. Perhaps because there is a bit of philosophical overlap, that may lower the penalty to 2.5 times. But the cost of redeveloping for the other platform is significant.
 
Sumit Bisht
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You are missing the web angle.
For non native applications, distributing them over internet is the way to go. Javascript libraries and frameworks like phonegap are already converging on a single app style, thought there is a lot to be done.
As the smartphone/tablet OSs mature, we'll see rise of standards that permit multiple languages to run on multiple devices(of different platforms) as in the case of computers.
 
chris webster
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Pat Farrell wrote:... a developer can write an "app" and make huge amounts of money...

I wonder how many people are actually making a lot of money out of writing Android/Java apps? If you come up with a smart and useful app that nobody else has done already, and keep working to maintain/upgrade it, then I can see you might make a decent secondary income. But "huge amounts of money"?
 
Pat Farrell
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chris webster wrote:I wonder how many people are actually making a lot of money out of writing Android/Java apps? If you come up with a smart and useful app that nobody else has done already, and keep working to maintain/upgrade it, then I can see you might make a decent secondary income. But "huge amounts of money"?


I have no hard figures, but my guess is that very few make a ton of money on Android. The money is on the IOS side. There are iPhone developers making huge amounts of money. There is a camera app, I think Camera+, by Lisa Bettany, that has sold close to a million copies. At $10 a copy, I call that huge amounts of money.
 
chris webster
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Pat Farrell wrote:The money is on the IOS side. There are iPhone developers making huge amounts of money. There is a camera app, I think Camera+, by Lisa Bettany, that has sold close to a million copies. At $10 a copy, I call that huge amounts of money.

Yeah, definitely sounds "huge" to me too. I guess Apple is doing OK too, with 30% of every app sold, eh?
 
Jay Orsaw
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Pat Farrell wrote:
chris webster wrote:I wonder how many people are actually making a lot of money out of writing Android/Java apps? If you come up with a smart and useful app that nobody else has done already, and keep working to maintain/upgrade it, then I can see you might make a decent secondary income. But "huge amounts of money"?


I have no hard figures, but my guess is that very few make a ton of money on Android. The money is on the IOS side. There are iPhone developers making huge amounts of money. There is a camera app, I think Camera+, by Lisa Bettany, that has sold close to a million copies. At $10 a copy, I call that huge amounts of money.


More apps are created via android, and personally I wouldn't want to work with Apple since they want 100 a year, plus 30%, and if you don't pay it they will wipe out all of your apps. Google wants a 1 time fee of like 25$ and 25-30%.
 
Pat Farrell
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Jay Orsaw wrote:More apps are created via android


This may be true, I don't know. I do know that the serious money is on the IOS side.

Jay Orsaw wrote: and personally I wouldn't want to work with Apple since they want 100 a year, plus 30%, and if you don't pay it they will wipe out all of your apps. Google wants a 1 time fee of like 25$ and 25-30%.


$100 is nothing for a professional effort. It just keeps the children out.

The 30% tax that apple take feels high to me, but lots of successful app developers are fine with their remaining 70%.
 
Jay Orsaw
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Pat Farrell wrote:
Jay Orsaw wrote:More apps are created via android


This may be true, I don't know. I do know that the serious money is on the IOS side.

Jay Orsaw wrote: and personally I wouldn't want to work with Apple since they want 100 a year, plus 30%, and if you don't pay it they will wipe out all of your apps. Google wants a 1 time fee of like 25$ and 25-30%.


$100 is nothing for a professional effort. It just keeps the children out.

The 30% tax that apple take feels high to me, but lots of successful app developers are fine with their remaining 70%.


Serious money is on both sides, when we can see the percentages of users buying android phones vs iphones, and see the stats on the apps themselves we can see a better picture. 100$ isn't a lot if you have multiple apps and are able to make a lot off of it, but if you don't want to do iphone apps then, or feel Android is the better place to be then you wont pay it. It's good to be on both though. It all depneds how successful your app is.
 
Pat Farrell
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Jay Orsaw wrote:Serious money is on both sides, when we can see the percentages of users buying android phones vs iphones, and see the stats on the apps themselves we can see a better picture. 100$ isn't a lot if you have multiple apps and are able to make a lot off of it, but if you don't want to do iphone apps then, or feel Android is the better place to be then you wont pay it. It's good to be on both though. It all depneds how successful your app is.


I don't understand what you are trying to argue, and I don't have much interest in arguing with you.

$100 is trivial in the cost of developing an app. Period. If that is your argument, then I'm not at all interested in further discussion. I had to spend $3000
to get a laptop for IOS development, so even then, $100 was trivial.

Many folks seem to expect all Android apps to be free, which means that few apps are getting sold even for the typical $5 or $10 that the non-free IOS apps get. I'd had my Android phone for over a year and I've yet to pay for an app.
 
Palak Mathur
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Java/JEE is being used in many things. It isn't even slow. If the coder is doing a bad job then what can Java do?
 
Ivan Jozsef Balazs
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Tim McGuire wrote:I use java based desktop applications such as IntelliJ Idea and DBVisualizer every day and they are very robust.



My favourite editor is Jedit.
http://www.jedit.org/

After having happily used it for a while, I was surprised to realize its being Java-based!
Java has come a long way.
 
Michael Swierczek
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I think Java has three fundamental reputation problems in the broad IT community, but no serious problems.

1. Java starts more slowly and uses more memory than an equivalent ( well written ) C or C++ program. The difference has not been significant if you had a decent computer in the past five years. But for client applications from the introduction of Java through the mid 2000s, especially at companies and homes where people purchased an inadequately powerful computer, it made Java's performance seem awful.

2. The Java community big projects went berserk with design patterns and dependency injection for a long time. Instead of all sorts of simple projects that added complexity as-needed, you had projects with factories, decorators, proxies, etc... it meant a given project (e.g. Spring, Struts, Hibernate, EJB 2) was incredibly flexible, but understanding how all the pieces fit together would take weeks or months of study. The situation has improved dramatically, but people still remember wrestling with Struts 1 and shudder.

3. For web development, the scripting languages like Perl, Python, PHP, and Ruby have had instant feedback on most of their projects for over ten years. If you've never had that when building a web application, it's positively wonderful - you change a source file, save the file, and hit refresh in your browser to see your change or a new error message immediately. Once you've worked that way, working in a traditional Java application server mode is very frustrating. You save your changes, recompile your code, restart your web server, and then refresh the page in your browser. Instead of a two second delay between your change and the results, it's a 30 second delay or 60 second delay, and more often than not you found yourself reading Slashdot or Yahoo News while you were waiting for the process to finish and wasted fifteen minutes. But today many of the major Java web frameworks support instant deployment of changes.

On the other hand, I think Java syntax still needs to steal some improvements from Groovy.
I haven't looked at Groovy in a while, but if I remember correctly it has these nice features:
1. Every source file automatically has "import java.io.*; import java.util.*; import java.util.regex.*;" implicitly included.
2. All exceptions are unchecked, you only have to put "throws ..." and "try/catch" in where you specifically want to use it.

I also think Java needs to steal some improvements from Scala.
1. Tuples for passing around multiple values of different types without having to use class variables or collections of objects with type casting or companion classes that exist only so you can pass a list and two integers between three different functions.
2. The override keyword is required, so you can never override an ancestor function by accident.
3. The ability to subclass the default java.lang.String and java.util.Collection classes so that I don't need helper classes, static helper functions, or the Apache Commons Collections library in order to do common things.
4. Embed multi-line Strings right in the source file. I know a lot of people consider this bad practice, but I find it much easier to track and understand than having to switch between my Java source file and XML or a properties file to read my big SQL statement or bit of HTML.

Last and not least, I think Java needs a keyword shortcut for creating default 'getters' and 'setters' for private variables. I realize the IDEs and text editors provide macros for creating them automatically, but it's still a manual step. Instead, I propose a 1 or 2 keystroke solution: "privateg" before a class variable makes the variable private with a public getter, "privategs" before a class variable makes the variable private with a public getter and setter. *poof* 30,000 lines of code would be gone from my project, and I think the code would be just as readable.
 
Eduardo Moranchel
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The new Tiobe index for this year is out.

Not to help the argument, but I wonder why java went down from being the king.

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

Also noteworthy: Java has been in top for most of the years competing with c with clear advantage.
People use it, and will probably keep using it, but anyway.

What are your thoughts on this?


 
Palak Mathur
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Eduardo Moranchel wrote:The new Tiobe index for this year is out.

Not to help the argument, but I wonder why java went down from being the king.

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

Also noteworthy: Java has been in top for most of the years competing with c with clear advantage.
People use it, and will probably keep using it, but anyway.

What are your thoughts on this?




I actually do not find this index quite useful. From the index it seems that Java has been replaced by C, which I do not think can be the reason. It would have been best covered if it would have also taken into account which languages gained as a result of losses in a particular language.
Moreover, C and Java are used for different purposes. So, any comparison is not good.
Interesting think to note is how mobiles, etc are bringing the languages upwards.
 
spar mc
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We often hear that language X saw failures in this old language Y over the years and corrected them. Long ago, Java was replacing C/C++, now Ceylon/Scala are being proposed as Java alternative. This cycle never ends. And its very good that this cycle goes on, it will bring us more languages. There is no need to cling to a technology or be religious about it.

Software systems sell not because they are in a language with pointers, they sell because they work well in real world, are secure and scalable.

As far as Java is concerned, JVM has been the real winner over all this time. It is the key platform of abstraction that has provided so much freedom to developers. And there is plenty room for Java to adapt as long as the JVM concept holds good in the market. Recent releases of Java do point in this direction. May be there is a new Java in the making ;) . As long as Java evolves well with its time, it will continue to hold a good market share.
 
Palak Mathur
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spar mc wrote:We often hear that language X saw failures in this old language Y over the years and corrected them. Long ago, Java was replacing C/C++, now Ceylon/Scala are being proposed as Java alternative. This cycle never ends. And its very good that this cycle goes on, it will bring us more languages. There is no need to cling to a technology or be religious about it.

Software systems sell not because they are in a language with pointers, they sell because they work well in real world.

As far as Java is concerned, JVM has been the real winner over all this time. It is the key platform and concept of abstraction that has provided so much freedom to developers. And there is plenty room for Java to adapt as long as the JVM concept holds good in the market. Recent releases of Java do point in this direction. May be there is a new Java in the making ;) .


There already is a new Java in making. Java 7 is already there. Then there are Java 8 and Java 9 in pipeline.
 
Joe Irudayaraj
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john price wrote:
Bear Bibeault wrote:
john price wrote: Java seems like a technology no one wants to use

You need to get out more.


All my coding friends do not use Java. Could you tell me some main technologies that use Java? I'm not asking for the basic ones on Java.com or anything. I'm talking about major corporations like Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, Twitter etc. I do know that Twitters servers are partly/all Java servers. I would like to see client examples, not server examples. Again, I'm not trying to bag on Java. I love Java, but there are a few things that I don't like (as no language is perfect) and people seem to not like it all that much - even users... Most users complain about it's slowness, which will be improved as years go by...

John Price



joe wrote:

Google themselves use GWT framework which is a java based framework in applications like Google Base,Google Checkout etc which are some client examples
 
arulk pillai
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-- Twitter for example was built using Rails/Ruby but once it became unscalable, they migrated to the JVM. Twitter is shifting more code to JVM

-- LinkedIn is 99% Java

If you Google, you can find more. The country where I live in, major financial and telecom organizations are Java based. Having said that, now a days there are more options available for newer projects.
 
R. Grimes
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Well, I'm happy to be part of the 1,000,000,000 "no ones" who use Java via the Android O/S. I guess someone forgot about Oracle's lawsuit against Google over its Dalvik VM.

Seriously though, the reason I opted for Java as part of our stack is due to the enormous community involvement, which is really unparalleled. Need a cryptography package, someone has created it. Need a package to create spreadsheets or office documents, someone has created it free of charge. Need a package to marshall and unmarshall XML, someone has provided it. The list is endless.

Choose another language, and you'll be asking on their forum, "Hey, does this language have something like JAXB - you know like Java has?"

I suspect that the reason a lot of the original poster's friends have chosen other languages is not because those languages are better, but are easier to learn than Java. Let's face it. Java is not for the lazy.

Ron
 
James Boswell
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I love Java, but there are a few things that I don't like (as no language is perfect) and people seem to not like it all that much - even users


I would love to know the exact number of people we are talking about here. Some of your friends? Really, as Bear stated at the beginning of this thread, you need to get out more. What kinda response did you really expect to receive on a Java forum anyway!
 
Gene Kelley
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Client side examples?

Try looking into some of Jagex's products. http://www.jagex.com/

The makers of Runescape! http://www.java.com/en/java_in_action/runescape.jsp

Just go through the tutorial for free and if you're not convinced of the greatness of Java, I'll give up!

http://www.runescape.com/
 
Campbell Ritchie
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Welcome to the Ranch
 
joseph dela cruz
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john price wrote:
Bear Bibeault wrote:
john price wrote: Java seems like a technology no one wants to use

You need to get out more.


All my coding friends do not use Java. Could you tell me some main technologies that use Java? I'm not asking for the basic ones on Java.com or anything. I'm talking about major corporations like Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, Twitter etc.

John Price

correct me if im wrong i know android is java and every body loves android apps
 
Michael A Hoffman
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To extend a bit off Michael's post on reputation...

1) OO is really a significant culprit in the complexity of Java. When I started in the late 90's, it was a pretty significant shift from procedural programming. Those teaching me OO at the time didn't really understand the concepts well and could explain it even less. When Java bloomed in popularity, workers needed to come up to speed quickly and didn't get the full concept. You had Java classes being developed with 35,000+ lines. If-else blocks that had 100+ branches. No testing. Technical debt was out of control. It is starting to mature, but I still feel many of the Java developers I work with still don't understand the fundamentals of OO and really just program procedurally. The complexity of OO likely leads to some reputation issues.

2) XML is a very important format to come along in technology. I feel both Java and Microsoft have had a lot of challenges when it comes to support and features of XML. Won't delve too deep into the Microsoft issues, but had some personal experiences with their usage of the any type in a schema and weirdness with their Bing Maps API. Java is just a pain in the butt when it comes to XML. Dependencies would be a good starting point for the challenges faced between Java and XML. Performance has also been a concern, such as parsing implementations and transformation of large XML files through service interfaces. One of the biggest impacts on reputation is the use of XML for configuration. We have all seen a massive XML configuration file at one time in our life and thought "what the hell am I supposed to do with this?"

3) Jason Hunter's (writer of the Java Servlets book) article on the problem with JSPs (http://www.servlets.com/soapbox/problems-jsp.html) hit on a lot of my early concerns with JSPs. Today, I still get highly frustrated managing large JSPs, fragmented across multiple files. Tag libraries have certainly helped. Spring MVC has been great for hiding complexities of form data binding. That being said, I still see JSPs as being a poor technology. I think a lot of others feel the same way.

4) EJBs. Enough said.
 
Ashish Agre
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Bear Bibeault wrote:And then there are us old dogs who continually learn new tricks.


hahaha awesome +1 Bear Bibeault
 
R. Grimes
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I think there is a mentality amongst the younger developers that development languages are like iPhones - the newer it is the better. And, you must adopt the newest for fear your friends will laugh at you for not being up with the times. And, this is a good reason why a company's development stack should NEVER be left to the decision making of anyone under the age of 35. They just haven't seen enough to know what's best, and the decisions are more likely to be based on what's cool than what works.

Ron
 
Jelle Klap
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R. Grimes wrote:..this is a good reason why a company's development stack should NEVER be left to the decision making of anyone under the age of 35..


Geez, thanks!
 
A Bannany
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john price wrote:
Java seems like a technology no one wants to use as many people make fun of it constantly. I do hear some of their complaints.
John Price


see http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html for some statistics.
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