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a decade of "keep the code out of the jsp"

Frank Silbermann
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Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
Bear Bibeault wrote:

If it is indeed more desirable to code in HTML/CSS/JavaScript, perhaps it should be explained why for twenty years no one felt the need to create a HTML/CSS/Javascript environment for building stand-alone PC applications.

Desktop apps and web apps are very different beasts.
I would agree web sites that need to offer a few forms are quite different from computer applications. Desktop apps and web apps, in contrast, differ only in the underlying infrastructure, of deployment, and efficiency optimization issues.

Bear Bibeault wrote: GWT tries to bring the desktop programming metaphor to the web, and it's perfectly appropriate for some uses, but that metaphor just isn't going to go much of anywhere in the grand scheme of things -- it's just not very suitable to the purpose, and not even in the mindshare of up-and-coming web devs. They didn't "grow up" writing Windows or X desktop apps like we did, and telling them they need to write the structure of UI in a programmatic manner in Java rather than in a declarative manner is likely to get you some odd looks.
Exactly, just like the mainframe programmers who didn't grow up writing Java or even Pascal, and who would give you odd looks if you told them they should start doing, say, test-driven development.


Bear Bibeault wrote: Like many from the Java world, you seem to be looking askance at HTML and CSS, and even JavaScript, as something foreign and dangerous. Something to be avoided or worked around. A poisonous bug that needs to be squashed. The broad and influential web dev community is not in that camp.
No, I look at HTML and CSS as being not programming languages and therefore neglecting to benefit from a half-century of experience in the design and use of programming languages and IDEs. (Which therefore should be worked around or squashed.) And I look at JavaScript as a scripting language like Python -- something that is very nice to use for small programs, but whose IDEs cannot offer much in the way of refactoring support, which is so important when growing a large application. (OTOH, some people say that the flexibility of languages whose compilers don't do type-checking more than makes up for the lack of IDE refactoring support. To the extent this is true, we should be using JavaScript instead of Java on the server for code that is not speed-critical.)
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
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Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 61306
    
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Guess what: one of the other newer trends? Using JavaScript on the server instead of Java/Ruby/Python.

The times they are a-changing.


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Ben Souther
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Posts: 13410

Bear Bibeault wrote:Guess what: one of the other newer trends? Using JavaScript on the server instead of Java/Ruby/Python.

The times they are a-changing.


For an example, watch this video on node.js.
It's entertaining to see how fast Ryan Dahl is able to build an echo server while presenting his seminar.

This is an interesting time to be a web developer.


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