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What have you done for Java ?

Ulf Dittmer
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Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 42930
    
  68
I'd say Andrew is fully entitled to poke fun at people who close their eyes to reality, especially if said people go around accusing the clearer-eyed rest of the world of doing so.

But now that you're directing your name calling no longer at an amorphous group of people, but directly at individuals, be clear that that is not within forum rules, and needs to stop.

Also note that you posted this in the "Meaningless Drivel" forum, but that you seem to take it quite seriously. That makes it no longer meaningless, and it is thus liable for deletion if any moderator feels like doing so.
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 19070
    
  40

Ulf Dittmer wrote:
But now that you're directing your name calling no longer at an amorphous group of people, but directly at individuals, be clear that that is not within forum rules, and needs to stop.


<Moderator Hat on -- since I am one of the official moderators of the meaningless drivel forum>
Myke, your response has been deleted. If you don't like Bear's or Andrew's argument, then make a counter argument. Keep the subject on the topic -- and not on other ranchers. Remember, we are all professionals here.
<Moderator Hat off>

Henry


Books: Java Threads, 3rd Edition, Jini in a Nutshell, and Java Gems (contributor)
rohit chavan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 08, 2010
Posts: 132

All these years, I have "given" a real hard time to the JAVA compiler. OR.... is it the other way round? :P

Myke Enriq
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 13, 2012
Posts: 115
Henry Wong wrote:
Ulf Dittmer wrote:
But now that you're directing your name calling no longer at an amorphous group of people, but directly at individuals, be clear that that is not within forum rules, and needs to stop.


<Moderator Hat on -- since I am one of the official moderators of the meaningless drivel forum>
Myke, your response has been deleted. If you don't like Bear's or Andrew's argument, then make a counter argument. Keep the subject on the topic -- and not on other ranchers. Remember, we are all professionals here.
<Moderator Hat off>

Henry


What you did is not politically correct. That guy sells books to programmers , he has no right to make fun of them.

I get it that he has many posts here , but this does not entitle him to enter a thread about programmers losing their job and to post jokes.

Plus he did quote Thomas J. Watson. By your argument he is not allowed to single out Thomas J. Watson by quoting one of his less fortunate ideas.

Really. Thomas J Watson was one of the richest men of his time , chairman and CEO of IBM , and considered the best salesman on Earth.
To not understand one of his ideas , and the principles behind it, is one thing , to make fun of it is another. Thomas J Watson is a symbol of american democracy , and making fun of him is an insult to all civilized people.

Martin Vajsar
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 22, 2010
Posts: 3611
    
  60

Well, things change, and certainly not only in the IT. Myke, if you had to go to a hospital, would you really want to be treated by a doctor that hasn't opened a medical journal since he left the university? I wouldn't, and I wouldn't shed a tear for him if he got fired for not keeping up to date.
Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 42930
    
  68
Myke Enriq wrote:What you did is not politically correct.



That's rich coming from a guy who is insulting people left and right. If you can't take it, you shouldn't be dishing it out.
chris webster
Bartender

Joined: Mar 01, 2009
Posts: 1873
    
  16

Gosh, things have got awfully heated around here, eh? Must be the summer weather (pushing 30C today here in Wales)...

@Myke:
This site - and indeed this thread - includes people who really have contributed to promoting greater understanding of Java, other languages and indeed a broad range of software engineering skills. Many of them have lived through several cycles of hype, technological revolutions and general economic ups and downs, which may explain why they seem to have a different perspective from yours. So maybe you could explain exactly what you think we should all be doing to promote Java, and how this will help the situation you describe?

  • If we all refuse to use non-Java technologies, how does that help our careers in a fast-changing industry?
  • How does it help our clients if we only ever recommend Java - why should anybody bother asking for our advice, if it doesn't matter what the question is, because the answer's always "Java"?
  • How does it help the wider industry if we insist on forcing those projects where we have any influence down the same old road of increasingly outdated technology, while our competitors are free to choose the right tool for the job?
  • If we all do that for the next 10 years, do you really think we will still be well-placed to earn a living, except as maintenance programmers on the trailing edge of technology if we're lucky?

  • You clearly disagree with the general view here that learning new stuff is good, having many skills is good, and being free to choose the right tool for any given job is good. So explain how your approach is better.

    PS: I like to think of myself as reasonably civilised, but I don't feel remotely insulted if somebody makes a joke referring to a successful businessman, even an American one. That's democracy for you, eh?
    PPS: Have you read Paul Graham's famous essay on Beating The Averages? You don't want to be a Blub programmer all your life...

    No more Blub for me, thank you, Vicar.
    Jesper de Jong
    Java Cowboy
    Saloon Keeper

    Joined: Aug 16, 2005
    Posts: 14433
        
      23

    Myke Enriq wrote:As for learning a new language , it does have a few setbacks:
    - when you take a job on that new language , you will be almost a junior competing with other juniors , and those other juniors will work for much less.
    ...
    - your years of experience with Java will count for nothing. The corporations will get to pay you less , while you work just as much.

    Myke, you have a number of typical misconceptions that less experienced programmers sometimes have.

    First, you focus too much on one programming language, Java. To be a great programmer, you need to know far more than just a programming language. You need to be good in analyzing problems and designing the structure of programs in such a way that the program efficiently solves the problem and is maintainable. These things don't have a lot to do with what programming language you use.

    If, someday, you have to learn a different language because your old language isn't popular anymore, then you don't start at the bottom, you're not a junior who is once again competing with juniors. You still have all your skills and knowledge, you just have to write your program in a different language. It's not like everything you know is suddenly worthless.

    I've been there myself. Before I started with Java, I was a C++ guru. I knew all the ins and outs of the language. Then I switched to Java. I didn't have to start completely from scratch, I didn't have to compete with juniors and my salary wasn't suddenly cut in half. All my knowledge and experience with designing object oriented programs was still valid.

    Myke Enriq wrote:Each year thousands of new programmers finish college... in each country. Maybe a million more programmers are thus created each year.
    ...
    More than that , the general opinion in poor countries is that programming is easy and gets you a well payed job. Thus young people flood the computer science related universities.
    Online training becomes better and better every year. Outsourcing is an ever growing phenomenon , especially in our field of work. The teachers in 3rd world countries are getting better themselves.

    Most of those people might think that programming is easy and gets you a well payed job. But after a while they will find out that reality is different. It is HARD to be a great programmer and it takes YEARS of hands-on experience in real projects before you become a great programmer. Only a small fraction of the people who start with this actually have the talent to become great programmers. The vast majority will discover after some time that it isn't easy and they just don't have the talent to become really great, and they'll switch to other jobs. I've seen that happen over and over again in my 17 years experience as a professional software developer.

    Being a great programmer is still a rare skill, and great programmers are in high demand.

    Being a great programmer is not about the particular programming language that you know. It's about the skill to analyze complex problems accurately and quickly, understanding what the needs of your client are, communicating effectively, and designing efficient and maintainable software.

    Have a look at this famous article: Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years by Peter Norvig.

    Java Beginners FAQ - JavaRanch SCJP FAQ - The Java Tutorial - Java SE 8 API documentation
    Myke Enriq
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Feb 13, 2012
    Posts: 115
    Jesper de Jong wrote:

    First, you focus too much on one programming language, Java. To be a great programmer, you need to know far more than just a programming language. You need to be good in analyzing problems and designing the structure of programs in such a way that the program efficiently solves the problem and is maintainable. These things don't have a lot to do with what programming language you use.


    Really ? You know absolutely nothing about me , yet you assume that I focus too much on java. What does that even mean ?

    Secondly , you assume that my goal is to be a great programmer. You know just as well as I do that being a sub mediocre programmer no longer gets you a well payed job , but you hope that being some sort of a new species , this great programmer thing , will solve my problems. How long before being a great programmer will no longer be enough to get you a well payed job ?

    Thirdly , when you change a programming language , not all but the wast majority of what you know and of your experience goes to waste. Why is everyone here so cowardly and so scared to admit to himself this simple truth ?

    You should join me. Do not try to cheer me up , but try to come up with solutions. I would rather invest my time today into finding some solution for the hardships any of us will face in a few years, than to hope for the best and do nothing.

    And last but not least, this whole thread made me a bit disappointed about the people here. You were all smart enough to learn programming and to get a job , but so few of you are thinking about efficiency. IT has turned into a field of work where every 5 - 10 years one learns a new programming language and competes with others for the same job but with less pay. The corporations are making a killer profit while we are actually investing pieces of our finite lives to learn and parade some "new language" just not to get fired.

    Few if any are other jobs where there ever exists such a situation where most of your learning and experience so far gets thrown down the drain and you have to start from zero to learn a new qualification (out of your own pocket) then compete as (almost) a junior.

    Ulf Dittmer
    Marshal

    Joined: Mar 22, 2005
    Posts: 42930
        
      68
    Myke Enriq wrote:you assume that I focus too much on java.

    You proved so yourself repeatedly by dismissing learning other languages, and just focusing on improving Java.

    when you change a programming language , not all but the wast majority of what you know and of your experience goes to waste.

    Nonsense. Developers know and learn lots of stuff about design and architecture, databases, communication and networks, writing maintainable code, performance, etc. etc. Anyone who knows (and cares about) just a single programming language is a code monkey who will of course go under. After learning a few languages, picking up the next one is not hard.

    I would rather invest my time today into finding some solution for the hardships any of us will face in a few years, than to hope for the best and do nothing.

    What the solution of everybody here is is clear by now. If you don't want to accept that viewpoint, then your time would probably be better invested by posting elsewhere on the net.

    IT has turned into a field of work where every 5 - 10 years one learns a new programming language

    It has not changed at all, it has always been so. It is possible that you lack the perspective to acknowledge that; you may wish to read up on the history of this industry.
    Jesper de Jong
    Java Cowboy
    Saloon Keeper

    Joined: Aug 16, 2005
    Posts: 14433
        
      23

    Myke Enriq wrote:Thirdly , when you change a programming language , not all but the wast majority of what you know and of your experience goes to waste. Why is everyone here so cowardly and so scared to admit to himself this simple truth ?

    Because it simply is not true. As I explained, the largest part of being a great programmer is not about the programming language.

    Myke Enriq wrote:Few if any are other jobs where there ever exists such a situation where most of your learning and experience so far gets thrown down the drain and you have to start from zero to learn a new qualification (out of your own pocket) then compete as (almost) a junior.

    I explained you my own experience in my post above, and this is simply not true. Apparently you're not willing to understand what I wrote.

    You're still very much hung up on the false idea that it's all about the programming language, and if the programming language disappears, you have to start from scratch.
    J. Kevin Robbins
    Bartender

    Joined: Dec 16, 2010
    Posts: 1070
        
      13



    Had any good pie lately?


    "The good news about computers is that they do what you tell them to do. The bad news is that they do what you tell them to do." -- Ted Nelson
    Steve Luke
    Bartender

    Joined: Jan 28, 2003
    Posts: 4181
        
      21

    Myke Enriq wrote:What you did is not politically correct. That guy sells books to programmers , he has no right to make fun of them.

    Free speech and 'american democracy' be damned right? Yeah, you hear me.

    Myke Enriq wrote:Plus he did quote Thomas J. Watson. By your argument he is not allowed to single out Thomas J. Watson by quoting one of his less fortunate ideas.


    This is the internet, it is easy to go back and read what was said to fact check your false claims:

    Andrew Monkhouse wrote:"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers" - misquote from Thomas J. Watson


    So, rather than making fun of said american hero and insulting civilization to its very core, I believe Andrew was intentionally using that quote as a warning. If you read the link Andrew provided you would see that
    Wikipedia wrote:the quote is typically used to demonstrate the fallacy of predictions
    . You should also realize that the quote is clearly identified as a misquote, both in the link text and in the target page, so it should be clear that no disparagement was meant to Watson, since it is made clear he didn't say the words. Even if he didn't say the words, the meaning is useful, though.


    Steve
    Jayesh A Lalwani
    Bartender

    Joined: Jan 17, 2008
    Posts: 2448
        
      28

    IMO, programmer's willingness to learn and move to new languages helps Java a lot more that bull-headed programmers who stick to Java, no matter what. Having a large percentage of user base who are constantly comparing Java with other languages forces Java to adapt. It's like free market. When you have a customer base that is not "loyal" and healthy competition from other companies, the company that adapts to customer demands faster survives. The "disloyal" customers are, in fact, pressuring the company to change. It's the same thing with computer languages too. If the programmers are open to features available in upcoming languages, and vocal about using them, then Java will have to adapt to keep those programmers. For example, the support for functional programming in Java 7 is being added, precisely because programmers are looking at languages like Scala, and are vocal about ditching Java for Scala. If all of us were determined never to look at another language again, Java would never improve!!

    Also, if you are determined to help Java, you are more than welcome to participate in JSRs. Go ahead and implement features that people are asking for. Don't blame people who are asking for those features
    Deepak Bala
    Bartender

    Joined: Feb 24, 2006
    Posts: 6662
        
        5

    I'm told pizza pies are delicious.



    SCJP 6 articles - SCJP 5/6 mock exams - More SCJP Mocks
    vishal saha
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jul 27, 2013
    Posts: 30
    J. Kevin Robbins wrote:
    Had any good pie lately?

    troll get his food earlier than us.
    Bear Bibeault
    Author and ninkuma
    Marshal

    Joined: Jan 10, 2002
    Posts: 61766
        
      67

    Yeah, unfortunately at this point Myke is just repeating the same fallacies over and again.

    But this hasn't been a waste. I think some good points were made by those responding to Myke's posts, and will hopefully help others understand that putting all your hopes and dreams on one language or technology isn't going to serve for a career in software development.

    Time to go to pie. Here are some apple hand pies I made the other week:



    Recipe available for the asking.


    [Asking smart questions] [Bear's FrontMan] [About Bear] [Books by Bear]
    Steve Luke
    Bartender

    Joined: Jan 28, 2003
    Posts: 4181
        
      21

    I love pies with lots of stuff on them... This is one of my recent favorites

    Deepak Bala
    Bartender

    Joined: Feb 24, 2006
    Posts: 6662
        
        5

    Steve Luke wrote:I love pies with lots of stuff on them... This is one of my recent favorites



    The slice with the money in it looks delicious.
    Bear Bibeault
    Author and ninkuma
    Marshal

    Joined: Jan 10, 2002
    Posts: 61766
        
      67

    Steve Luke wrote:The slice with the money in it looks delicious.

    Depends if it's incoming or outgoing.
    Jesper de Jong
    Java Cowboy
    Saloon Keeper

    Joined: Aug 16, 2005
    Posts: 14433
        
      23

    Bjarne Stroustrup, creator of C++


    Larry Wall, creator of Perl
    Ulf Dittmer
    Marshal

    Joined: Mar 22, 2005
    Posts: 42930
        
      68
    "The most important reason to know JavaScript might be so you know whether to click the "Enable JavaScript" checkbox in your browser."

    "Java is sort of the Cobol of the 21st century."

    "Haskell is called a functional language not because the other languages are disfunctional."

    "C is important mostly because everybody is trying to replace it and not succeeding."

    Nice.
    Pat Farrell
    Rancher

    Joined: Aug 11, 2007
    Posts: 4659
        
        5

    Ulf Dittmer wrote:"Java is sort of the Cobol of the 21st century."


    I think this is a serious insult to Cobol. In the late 60s into the early 80s, Cobol and Fortran were THE mainstream languages. Sure, there were assorted basic versions on nearly all platforms, and every machine had an assembly/macro language.

    Cobol has its faults, but it was a far more complete language then Java is. You could write major accounting systems in Cobol, not using a dozen orthogonal libraries the way Java folks do.
    Jayesh A Lalwani
    Bartender

    Joined: Jan 17, 2008
    Posts: 2448
        
      28

    Ooh Larry wall burnt java real bad

    Ivan Jozsef Balazs
    Rancher

    Joined: May 22, 2012
    Posts: 905
        
        5
    What have you done for Java ?


    I coauthored some books (in my native language) on it.
    Ivan Jozsef Balazs
    Rancher

    Joined: May 22, 2012
    Posts: 905
        
        5
    Pat Farrell wrote:Cobol has its faults, but it was a far more complete language then Java is. You could write major accounting systems in Cobol, not using a dozen orthogonal libraries the way Java folks do.


    What is wrong with using orthogonal libraries?
    FYI: I started programming in the "good old" Cobol days.

    Pat Farrell
    Rancher

    Joined: Aug 11, 2007
    Posts: 4659
        
        5

    Ivan Jozsef Balazs wrote:What is wrong with using orthogonal libraries?

    To be more precise, orthogonal libraries are a great idea, you want separate things done by separate libraries. But in the Java world, the libraries not only have orthogonal functions, but they have orthogonal designs, philosophies, error handling and calling styles. Many have magic parameters that are set outside the arguments passed to the methods, requiring different styles of parameter files in different formats (XML, properties, etc.). As a result, the programmer can't just use the library, they have to fully understand how each library works.

    Since real world projects often use ten, or twenty or more libraries, we have to repeat this learning twenty times, instead of once. Plus, since they are different, its easy to use create bugs by using the wrong argument styles with the wrong library.

    Having two things does not make your life twice as hard, it makes it something like four times as hard. With twenty libraries, there is a huge combinatorial explosion. This is a bad thing(tm)
    Martin Vajsar
    Sheriff

    Joined: Aug 22, 2010
    Posts: 3611
        
      60

    In Cobol world this (meaning different designs/philosophies of libraries) is different? Or you just don't need any additional library to write a major accounting system in Cobol?
    Pat Farrell
    Rancher

    Joined: Aug 11, 2007
    Posts: 4659
        
        5

    Martin Vajsar wrote:In Cobol world this (meaning different designs/philosophies of libraries) is different? Or you just don't need any additional library to write a major accounting system in Cobol?


    The Cobol that I wrote professionally did not even have subroutines with arguments. (Haven't used it in 35+ years, so I don't know what it has now). Accounting systems are designed around batch processing. You get a file with a bunch of record of new checks, and you apply them to the accounts. Or you write a program that talks to the user and collects information, storing the data in a file to be posted by the program that reads the bunch of records.

    I think the common philosophy and argument usage is as much about the domain and tools as it is about Cobol the language itself. I don't think (really just a guess) that anyone would decide to use Cobol to write a complex web application that talks JavaScript/HTML/AJAX to the user and hits up other servers as a HTTP client and sends out email and SMS messages.

    Cobol is a very simple looking language, with English-like verbs and structures, that has a huge amount of fancy stuff hidden in the language. Java, in contrast, is a tiny language, which can be completely described in just a few pages (if you leave out hacks such as generics). When we build Java applications, we use the tiny language to tie together 20 or more libraries.
    Martin Vajsar
    Sheriff

    Joined: Aug 22, 2010
    Posts: 3611
        
      60

    But writing the batch processing system you've described in Java wouldn't require using so many libraries, would it? I'd say you could do with just a few of the JDK packages themselves, and at least those are quite consistent. (Though the decision to index everything starting at 1 instead of 0 in JDBC is a terrible blunder.)

    (In any case, I believe that the above comparison of Java to Cobol alludes to its versatility and spread in the enterprise world, not to any similarities in the capabilities and/or design.)
    vishal saha
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jul 27, 2013
    Posts: 30
    Ulf Dittmer wrote:Also note that you posted this in the "Meaningless Drivel" forum, but that you seem to take it quite seriously.


    is this serious ? ;-)
    Pat Farrell
    Rancher

    Joined: Aug 11, 2007
    Posts: 4659
        
        5

    Martin Vajsar wrote:....of the JDK packages themselves... (Though the decision to index everything starting at 1 instead of 0 in JDBC is a terrible blunder.


    In Cobol, you would not use something like JDK, its too low level. You would define the records in the Data Division and probably use the Communication Division to talk to the DBMS. In Cobol, you would just have a Perform loop that fetched records and you'd use the data fields defined in an 09 level record someplace up in Data Division.
    Ivan Jozsef Balazs
    Rancher

    Joined: May 22, 2012
    Posts: 905
        
        5
    Martin Vajsar wrote:
    Though the decision to index everything starting at 1 instead of 0 in JDBC is a terrible blunder.)


    I think it comes somehow from SQL, a kind of (from C different) heritage.
    Ivan Jozsef Balazs
    Rancher

    Joined: May 22, 2012
    Posts: 905
        
        5
    Pat Farrell wrote:
    In Cobol


    In my Cobol days the OS supported index-sequential files which had a language-level binding.
    And also there were hierachical DBM systems before the proliferation of RDBM systems.

    It was possible to use different modules (parameter passing via LINKAGE SECTON and the like), but usually they were coarse-grain ones if at all.

    Boy, those were the days!




    Pat Farrell
    Rancher

    Joined: Aug 11, 2007
    Posts: 4659
        
        5

    Ivan Jozsef Balazs wrote:In my Cobol days the OS supported index-sequential files which had a language-level binding. And also there were hierachical DBM systems before the proliferation of RDBM systems.

    Yes, and they worked well. There are still applications where a hierarchical DB is better than a relational one, but that argument is always ignored.
     
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