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Thousands of Java Jobs Available!

Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
I worked for one of Blue Crosses. It has combined about 6000 employees in 3 states; IT groups in 2 states totaled 350 people. So if you assume about 100 IT folks in third state (I have no slightest idea how many of them were there, all I know that it was less than 300 and more than 50), then we have 450/6000 or, about 6%.
That would probably be accurate, my guess is that health insurance companies would have between 5% and 10% of their staff in IT. They have to process (and, hopefully, deny ) thousands of claims a day, and make it right. For instance, their Customer Rep staff is about 2-4 times that; on average, rep doesn't stay at this position longer than a year (it's a crappy job).
IBM has a huge IT group, I will not be surprised if it is over 50% of their staff. The reason is because their consulting division is (was) the most profitable in the company. Plus, they produce all this software (mainframe, Lotus, WebSphere, etc.)
I doubt DELL or AT&T have too many IT folks, I am sure it is under 10%.

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

...The GDP cannot be manipulated, nor can most, if not all, other government economics indicies.

I am not saying the GDP, or other government numbers you see are worng. I am saying they do not represent a correct picture. I was trying to show why US needs this huge military budget, it is not because we are such a bad arses, just because spending $200 Billion here and there can positively affect statistical indicators, as well as help your buddies sustain their businesses through recession. Now, whether that manipulation is in any way relevant to the state of economy, my personal opinion is not. I started to believe that, just like in corporate quarterly reports, changing an indicator by 1-2 percentage points can be done by simply accounting manipulations. It's when you see 3-4% changes you start to believe it might be a trend. And you are right, if we look at 10-15 year span, indices should approximate reality pretty well.
Yeah, I know some about statistics, I also know that, when related to economics, it is a very opinionated discipline (you know, what to count, what not to count, what are the weights of this and that...). For the sake of an argument I could assume statistics to be a science
At this point I don't care much whether it is pure IT play or not, I just want to get a job with a decent pay. In my area we now have only 2 types of companies hiring anyway: pharmaceuticals (and related, like health insurances) and financials. Both require you to have at least minimum (1+ year) knowledge of the field.
Yesterday I got a call from recruiter saying that company I interviewed with last decided to hire someone else. It was a health insurance joint; I had a feeling their Tech Lead knew less than I did, and posision was lower. I worked with every technology they had, I had plenty of knowledge in health insurance, etc. To sum it up, I was majorly overqualified. Besides, my previous salary was waaaay above what they expected to pay (I guess I should've lied on my application :roll: ). Oh well, they wanted me to do VB anyway


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Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
<Numbers and guesses on IT staff>

I think you're missing my point. I'm trying to get a feeling for how many "tech jobs" (which is probably poorly defined to begin with), are in purely technicaly companies, like IBM, AT&T, and Dell, and how many are in companies with a core business other tehn technology. A majority of IBM people would qualitfy as having a "tech job." Most people in health care would not. I would argue that the non tech companies would start hiring before the tech ones do. I was just wondering how pull those companies would have on the tech job market as a whole.

Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:

I am not saying the GDP, or other government numbers you see are worng. I am saying they do not represent a correct picture. I was trying to show why US needs this huge military budget, it is not because we are such a bad arses, just because spending $200 Billion here and there can positively affect statistical indicators, as well as help your buddies sustain their businesses through recession.

I'm not going to debated the need for a large military budget. I disagree with you, but that is off topic for this forum.

Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:

I started to believe that, just like in corporate quarterly reports, changing an indicator by 1-2 percentage points can be done by simply accounting manipulations. It's when you see 3-4% changes you start to believe it might be a trend. And you are right, if we look at 10-15 year span, indices should approximate reality pretty well.

This is not possible. There is a fixed formula for calculating things like GDP, CPI, etc.

Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:

Yeah, I know some about statistics, I also know that, when related to economics, it is a very opinionated discipline (you know, what to count, what not to count, what are the weights of this and that...). For the sake of an argument I could assume statistics to be a science

I agree. However, if you pick something and stick to it, it's a lot less subjective. At the very least, you must conceed that even if the index is off, let's say it overweights farming and underweights technology, it is fixed relative to itself, so when you compared the numbers today to 5 or 10 years ago, you get an idea of how what is being measured compared to 5 or 10 years ago.

--Mark
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg, in response to posting by Shura Balaganov:
I started to believe that, just like in corporate quarterly reports, changing an indicator by 1-2 percentage points can be done by simply accounting manipulations. It's when you see 3-4% changes you start to believe it might be a trend. And you are right, if we look at 10-15 year span, indices should approximate reality pretty well.

This is not possible. There is a fixed formula for calculating things like GDP, CPI, etc.

Yeah, they do have a fixed formula, but they come up with a number (like 5.8% GDP increase in 1 quarter of 2002) and then revise it several times, and in bad economy it is usually downwards. This week's "Barron's" (http:\\www.barrons.com) has an article about it, they predict that after 1 or 2 revisions this number will be more like 4.3%-4.5%. So it is possible.
Before we stick to 5-10 year comparison (which, I agree, should be a good indicator) we need to make sure that the index itself did not change (like in my example earlier, when semiconductors were dropped from durable goods index - it most definitely produced a "different" index).
I agree that non-tech will start hiring first (and some of them already do). In my area most tech jobs I see are either in pharmaceuticals or financial companies. They are also nit-picking, and most ask candidates to have experience in their industry.
Which could probably lead to a question. In this economy, which is a more important skill: specific technology (such as Java) or specific industry (such as pharmaceutical, telecom or financial)?
I have a few former co-workers, technology folks with MBAs, who I keep in touch with. They have it much easier; although some companies have hiring freeze, there are still banks and financial institutions out there who are hiring.
Shura
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:

I agree that non-tech will start hiring first (and some of them already do). In my area most tech jobs I see are either in pharmaceuticals or financial companies. They are also nit-picking, and most ask candidates to have experience in their industry.
Which could probably lead to a question. In this economy, which is a more important skill: specific technology (such as Java) or specific industry (such as pharmaceutical, telecom or financial)?
I have a few former co-workers, technology folks with MBAs, who I keep in touch with. They have it much easier; although some companies have hiring freeze, there are still banks and financial institutions out there who are hiring.
Shura

In NYC it is definitely true that financial experience is necessary. It's one thing for writing financial applications, but I have seen ads for Powerpoint and Photoshop jobs that said "financial background necessary". What does a pixel care what industry is using it? I think it's just because they want people accustomed to the corporate b.s. that comes along with that field. Anyone accustomed to a more creative environment would probably quit the second other opportunities came around.
A search on Dice.com found no results for java not financial not trading in the NY area.
Also, Java is such an expensive technology to implement, that in a tough economy the only industries to have enough resources to hire are the financial/pharm/insurance fields.
What I am still wondering is, all of these companies are only hiring senior programmers, where are they getting the junior programmers? Does every single project involve reinventing the wheel? I rarely see an ad for entry/mid level programmers anymore. This makes me think that these types of companies do not promote from within. No wonder those positions are available.
I have a friend who has been working with Java in a financial environment. She just got a job doing Visual Basic. They didn't care that she hadn't used the language before. They just thought if she could work with Java she could work with VB. She also says that her workday usually consists of repetitive tasks that anyone with any amount of programming knowledge could master quickly.
[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: John Fontana ]

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"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten."
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:

Yeah, they do have a fixed formula, but they come up with a number (like 5.8% GDP increase in 1 quarter of 2002) and then revise it several times, and in bad economy it is usually downwards.B

That's not maipulations, that's having the data refined. The govenment can only use what data it's given by the indsutries. Bottom line, there is no intention manipulation of the data by the government.

Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:

Which could probably lead to a question. In this economy, which is a more important skill: specific technology (such as Java) or specific industry (such as pharmaceutical, telecom or financial)?

I'd say companies are equally stupid about emphasiing those skills. Take a smart C programer, he can learn Java in a month (I've seen even less time), and be good at it inside 6 months. I'd say the same is true for most industries. I'm hiring people looking at a 4-5 year window. The 3-6 month ramp up time is insignificant to me if it gets me a better candidate.
I'll get off my high horse now. I don't know the answer to your question, because neither trait is important to me.
--Mark
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
I don't think a C programmer can make a quick transition to Java. Not having an OO background is a major problem for anyone trying to move quickly to Java.
As far as companies being picky about who they hire, that is simply because of the job market. They are picky because they can be. When each job offer gets 200 resumes per day minimum, you can be very selective.


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Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

I'd say companies are equally stupid about emphasiing those skills. Take a smart C programer, he can learn Java in a month (I've seen even less time), and be good at it inside 6 months. I'd say the same is true for most industries. I'm hiring people looking at a 4-5 year window. The 3-6 month ramp up time is insignificant to me if it gets me a better candidate.

I believe through my 7 years in IT (including 4 years in consulting) I have only met a hand full of people who can intelligently hire IT people, and you sound like one of them. I would want to work for/with you.
Unfortunately, the reality is that either HR or recruiter is calling the first (and most) shots. They are evaluated on "what they've accompished", which, in recruiter's case means "how many heads did they hire", and in HR case "how many open positions did they fill". In either case, the key word is "how many", which constitutes QUANTITY, not QUALITY.
There's a statistics that average company loses around 10%-15% of its staff each year (I worked for HR consulting firm, it is their "pitch" numbers - for "bubble" years). http://www.callcenternews.com/specials/ws_000915.shtml The numbers are better for good comapnies and worse for the others. So imagine a company of 5000 people, they need to hire 500 workers a year just to stay even! What sort of quality they can talk about?... On the other hand, even when there's a hiring freeze, like now, companies still keep looking for key people. That's why we see all these Senior, Architect and Senior Management positions. Plus, the market is suppressing salaries and benefits for these folks.
Another turnover link:
http://www.bna.com/press/2002/worksurv2.htm
Hiring prospects survey:
http://www.bna.com/press/2002/worksurv1.htm
So they key to a "plenty of jobs" paradise in any market is: get very smart, very competitive, get tons of experience and become a Senior Architect or Project Manager. And then again, there's a lot less space on top of this pyramid. :roll:
And yes, companies are very selective. They can sence whether you will stay and be underpaid once economy recovers, or not.
(edit: added turnover link -- Shura)
[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Originally posted by John Fontana:

In NYC it is definitely true that financial experience is necessary. ...A search on Dice.com found no results for java not financial not trading in the NY area.

Try these for NY/financial/java positions:
http://www.headhunter.net
http://bloomberg.careerbuilder.com (this takes you to headhunter.net anyway, but has more financial positions)
http://www.monster.com
http://jobsearch.monster.com (here's a start for you on monster.com, 80 java positions in NYC, but you have to sort through a lot of garbage to see if there are any good ones for you)
Shura

(Marilyn shortened url)
[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: Marilyn de Queiroz ]
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:

Try these for NY/financial/java positions:
http://www.headhunter.net
http://bloomberg.careerbuilder.com (this takes you to headhunter.net anyway, but has more financial positions)
http://www.monster.com
http://jobsearch.monster.com/jobsearch.asp?
ah=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch.monster.com%
2F&col=dltci&fn=6%2C+546%2C+548%2C+549%2C+660&pp=
50&ss=0&lid=550&cy=US&brd=1
&q=java+and+not+manager&sort=dt&tm=30d
(here's a start for you on monster.com, 80 java positions in NYC, but you have to sort through a lot of garbage to see if there are any good ones for you)
Shura


Hi Shura,
Thanks for the listings, but my frustration is that I don't have any financial experience. If I could offer knowledge of a vertical market, it would be publishing. Until more Java jobs show that do not require financial/trading experience, I'm pretty much left out in the cold.
Is the bridge from non-specific types of programming to financial really that hard? I would not hesitate to say that I did help the accounting dept. at my last job with some database applications, but I honestly did not gain any new knowledge from those projects than I did from doing web/content management.
I'm just afraid that because the ads are so up-front about the financial requirement, I would never have a chance to prove my skills to otherwise appropriate opportunities.
(Marilyn edited long url)
[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: Marilyn de Queiroz ]
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Originally posted by John Fontana:

Is the bridge from non-specific types of programming to financial really that hard?
...
I'm just afraid that because the ads are so up-front about the financial requirement, I would never have a chance to prove my skills to otherwise appropriate opportunities.

Tough luck, John. First of all, I haven't worked directly in financial industry, but I worked with a few guys who came from it. I also have done projects for pharamceutical, chemical, biotech and manufacturing companies (mostly web and/or data warehousing). So let me say this:
THE BRIDGE IS MINIMAL. BUT IT IS SOOOO HARD TO CROSS IT.
I worked on projects where after a number of months our team knew more about company's business then 3 out of 4 business analysts. But it is all irrelevant, and this is why.
BUSINESS FOLKS ARE AFRAID. Yes, they are afraid they don't understand their IT peers. Both business (whatever company's business is) and technology people speak THEIR OWN LINGO and don't understand each other. So you could be a Java genius, but if there's a slightest chance that you have to talk to business community, they'd rather have you know their language then learn yours. HENCE, BUSINESS KNOWLEDGE REQUIREMENTS.
My personal experience says that if you are a Project Lead or Architech, or have to unerstand business requirements, or going to interact with business side in any way, there will be a requirement for you to know the business. This knowledge is helpful in some regard (for instance, in financial industry you wouldn't have to ask what ROI or P/E or spread is), but is most of the times picked up along the way easily.
Hey, most of these business folks learned Business in schools because they either were no good and flunked something else or didn't know what they wanted anyway!
I myself would jump to an opportunity to work for financial institution, but so far had not luck. And I have a Masters Degree in math (you would think this should be close to finance, huh?).
To give you word of hope. Keep trying. Change your resume so that any experience that is in any way related to financial is shown. Open 401K account (you probably already have one) and follow it; Read some financial magazines, like Kiplinger's or Fortune or Barron's, or even Money (to pick up language; whatever you do, be careful with financial advice they give, it's tricky). If you live in NYC your best bet is to meet people who already work for financial companies, and ask them to send your resume from inside and be your reference. Referral is number one way to get a job, and the way economy is now, will continue to be for a while.
Hey, what do I know, I am unemplyed!
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Unemployment rate hit new high of 6% in April.
http://money.cnn.com/2002/05/03/news/economy/economy/index.htm
Todd Sanders
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 07, 2002
Posts: 33
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
Unemployment rate hit new high of 6% in April.
http://money.cnn.com/2002/05/03/news/economy/economy/index.htm

This link totally missed Mark's point! Where are the statistics for Java Jobs or even Tech jobs?
Jim Baiter
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2001
Posts: 532
But that is highly qualified information about a superset of the tech jobs & java jobs. I don't see it as off topic at all.
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:

THE BRIDGE IS MINIMAL. BUT IT IS SOOOO HARD TO CROSS IT.

Oh, yeah! You reminded me about the language barrier to cross when I first entered the telecom business. I was absolutely a foriener, and I had to use the technique when I was learning English to learn the telecom jargons, acronyms. I put a bunch of 2" * 1" index cards in my pocket, and read them whenever I'd a minute or two...
Roseanne
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
BTW, I still kept a editable/maintenable telecom glossary JSP application on the web for my own use. I might start a finacial one...
Of course, there are tons on the web already. However, it is mine, which makes a huge difference...
[ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Originally posted by Roseanne Zhang:

Oh, yeah! You reminded me about the language barrier to cross when I first entered the telecom business....I put a bunch of 2" * 1" index cards in my pocket...

Good idea, Roseanne
I WAS a foreigner too. I got my first IT job at health insurance co. when I've only been 6 months in US; it was tough, I had to polish English AND learn healthcare lingo AND learn Assembler . Every night I'd come home and take evening nap, it was so tiring. Still think my American-English is a lot better than Healthcare-Dialect.
This kinda stuff only makes you tougher.
Spoke to a recruiter I know, he said that Java are the only positions in IT still available. But he expects it to change within a year. Just another point of view.
Shura
[ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Hurray, JOBS!!!
Last week, (May 6-10) there were more jobs posted on major job boards than in any other week past six months. Try monster.com or others.
Good luck, folks, don't sell out cheap, we've got 'em now!!!
Alex
[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
Jim Baiter
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 05, 2001
Posts: 532
To show Mark I am being objective here, there is an upbeat article I found linked from Dice. It indicates the return of strong demand for IT workers - see here
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Jim Baiter:
To show Mark I am being objective here, there is an upbeat article I found linked from Dice. It indicates the return of strong demand for IT workers - see here

I think I mentioned this before but ITAA is a trade association of IT firms. It is in their interest to inflate IT demands in order to keep the number of H1B's high. The study is based on nothing more than interviews with whichever hiring managers would talk to them. It is as scientific as hanging out on a streetcorner outside of the Budweiser factory and asking passer-bys what their favorite beer is.
Luther Adon
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 27, 2002
Posts: 51
At my last Java User Group meeting the company involved(HYWY Software) tried to talk about all the open Java Programmer positions available. The audience was not buying it(maybe as so many of us are out of work Java programmers) and they eventually got out of the speaker that when they talk about unfilled Java programmer positions it is mostly due to the level the companies want. Which is programmers with 5 years Java programming experience.
It's this kind of playing with words that feeds the media frenzy. One week the paper says there are lots of unfilled jobs for programmers the next week the top story is how some company laid off 10,000 techies. Guess at the end of the day it just sells papers and does nothing to inform anyone.
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
It's amazing what an addition of SCJP certificate does to your resume. Yesterday my web "agent" was matching 10-20 new positions a day, and today it came back with 184! Now, I am pretty sure I am the same person today as I was yesterday, before I passed the test.... or am I dreaming?
Shura
John Fontana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 235
Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
It's amazing what an addition of SCJP certificate does to your resume. Yesterday my web "agent" was matching 10-20 new positions a day, and today it came back with 184! Now, I am pretty sure I am the same person today as I was yesterday, before I passed the test.... or am I dreaming?
Shura

Congratulations! What web agent are you using...I've had SCJP for a few months now, and it seems the only thing that would increase my leads substantially is financial experience...
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 22, 2002
Posts: 664
Originally posted by John Fontana:

Congratulations! What web agent are you using...I've had SCJP for a few months now, and it seems the only thing that would increase my leads substantially is financial experience...

You can create job agents on almost any job site. In NY (if I am not mistaken?) try using monster, hotjobs and jobcircle. Also, people have been telling me that techies.com is a good place for IT jobs....
Shura
Matt DeLacey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 318
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
...that I will probably never code professionally in Java again.

I sympathize with everything that you are saying, and agree with you on many of the things, but if the above is true, do you really think you should be the sheriff of this forum???

With Respect,
Matt
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Originally posted by Matt DeLacey:

do you really think you should be the sheriff of this forum???

Thomas Paul was raised as JavaRanch sheriff after he became C# .NET developer, and I admire Trailboss Paul Wheaton's decision.
Java is not the beginning of the world, nor the end of the world. Java is just one programming language to get the job done. So does C#, Lisp, fortran, C/C++, Pascal, etc. Good people are always good no matter which language they are coding. Good skills are transferrable. When I created JavaChina, I was a full time VC++ programmer and only a part-time Java teacher.
Visit JavaChina on the web
Matt DeLacey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 318
Originally posted by Roseanne Zhang:

Thomas Paul was raised as JavaRanch sheriff after he became C# .NET developer, and I admire Trailboss Paul Wheaton's decision.
Java is not the beginning of the world, nor the end of the world. Java is just one programming language to get the job done. So does C#, Lisp, fortran, C/C++, Pascal, etc. Good people are always good no matter which language they are coding. Good skills are transferrable. When I created JavaChina, I was a full time VC++ programmer and only a part-time Java teacher.
Visit JavaChina on the web

I am not disputing any of this...I believe it is all true, however this is the JavaRanch and this particular forum is about Jobs Discussion (I presumed Java jobs). So to hear the sheriff make such statements...well, my personal belief is that those words speak for themselves. Clearly, you feel differently and that is fine, but don't misrepresent me.
With Respect,
Matt
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Matt DeLacey:
I sympathize with everything that you are saying, and agree with you on many of the things, but if the above is true, do you really think you should be the sheriff of this forum???
If by "this forum" you mean "Jobs Discussion" then you should note that I am not the moderator of this forum. If by "this forum" you mean the entire JavaRanch forum then I disagree.
You should also note that the main job of a moderator is:
1) enforce the naming standard
2) move off-topic posts
[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
Someone just revisited the 1.6 years ago news "Java is dead!"
Now, it is time to revisit this one, to see the Newton's(1643-1727) Third Law or Lao Tze's(604 BC-521 BC) philosophy at working.
[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Thousands of Java Jobs Available!
 
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