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US tech majors defend outsourcing

Falana Dhimkana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 13, 2004
Posts: 38
This is to all the Indian people trying to reason with Joe:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Guys, its kinda funny reading Joe's post. But you gotta give him a break. Its typical anti-immigrant rhetoric.
It reminds me of all the noise against poor bangladeshi workers who come to India. Everybody wants a cheap bangaldeshi maid, car cleaner, night watchman, gardener but God forbid muslims coming into India! Oh my god, they are changing the demographics of India! India will become a muslim country at this rate! So what do they do? They get Hindu names like Gopal etc and keep working. The only difference is that they are displacing the poor workers of India so the noise isn't about jobs but about demographics.
Same story in Punjab. Punjab is a rich place and we must close the doors to all immigrants from UP and Bihar. They are changing demographics of Punjab. So who's going to do all the farming and construction work? Well, hmm... ok they can come but they should only live here during farming season. They should go back afterwards.
TO JOE:
------
Whether we like it or not, if there is an imabalance of wealth poor people will find ways to get to it. Whether you like it or not mexicans will keep crossing the border into USA until it becomes too dangerous to cross or things get really good at home. Indian/Chinese/Russians will keep coming on H1B/L1 until things get better at home. Proof is in the pudding. With better paying jobs in India lesser and lesser Indians are trying to get H1 visas.
Bhau Mhatre
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 199
My browser window shows me that the topic at the top of this page is about Outsourcing. And since Joe and I are in some kind of temporary agreement about offshoring, I did not want to post anything here. Visas have to go. Yeah definately. They don't belong to this thread
But hey, did anybody realize Joe recently passed his 1000 posts mark? In what, just eight months? I didn't see anybody congratulating him in that Javaranch forum. So I am taking this opportunity in a favourite thread of mine to do the needful-
Congratulations Joe

Well, Joe, I am not going to bother to try arguing with you, but from my pov, you have gone down from a rationally thinking, biased poster to someone who will do/say anything to help the side you are on.

Though I have no right to say this to anybody, it's just a friendly suggestion about agruments, if you like ... Never say "I am not going to bother arguing with you...", while indulging in one or initiating one. You lose right away Second, the opponent never goes down from rational to irrational thinking. It is our failure to make him see our view.
---okay, end of my unwanted preaching here---
From Map ---------
Do not want to start a fight, just a remark. Joe, you seems forgot how this country started!
---------------------------

I don't know why Map even inserted that here in this thread. I suspect she was missing Joe in MD and was jealous of us who kept Joe engaged here all the time. She probably just wanted to get him back there ?
Come on guys. Let's give him a break. I have a feeling from his psots that Joe is really a good person. God-fearing, patriotic, family man, ...Just that he sees the world differently from others as we al do. That's okay. Our differing views make this world a beautiful place!
Congratulations again, Joe.


-Mumbai cha Bhau
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Whether we like it or not, if there is an imabalance of wealth poor people will find ways to get to it.
Thanks for your thoughtful response, Falana. I am going to review my position on this issue of global economics. Perhaps one day I can start a different thread on that issue and we can all jump in!
My comment was just abou the visas as opposed to outsourcing, and Map got me started down a road I really shouldn't have gone in this thread. I apologize to anyone I offended. As I said, perhaps this topic can be addressed in a different thread on a different day.
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Congratulations again, Joe.
Thanks, Mumbai. Time for me to chill out for a little while and listen to the various other voices on this forum. God knows my views have changed in the short time I've been here, so it's not unreasonable to think they may change again. Thanks for the encouragement and understanding.
Joe
Falana Dhimkana
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 13, 2004
Posts: 38
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Whether we like it or not, if there is an imabalance of wealth poor people will find ways to get to it.
Thanks for your thoughtful response, Falana. I am going to review my position on this issue of global economics. Perhaps one day I can start a different thread on that issue and we can all jump in!

Joe,
There was no sarcasm or putting down in my statement. I hope there was none in yours My point is that as long as there is an imbalance people will find ways. Higher the imbalance the more risks people will take. i.e. high imbalance => border crossing, low imbalance => H1B/L1. lower imbalance => Very few people willing to move.
BTW, I would love to join a thread on global/macroeconomics.

My comment was just abou the visas as opposed to outsourcing, and Map got me started down a road I really shouldn't have gone in this thread. I apologize to anyone I offended. As I said, perhaps this topic can be addressed in a different thread on a different day.
Joe

Well, we all tend to get carried away when we feel very passionately about something. My personal experience, I tend to stop seeing reason and lose debates when I let my passion about an issue cross a certain line.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
I hope there was none in yours
No, absolutely not! I try not to use sarcasm on these forums, since it is so easily misnuderstood. No, I was sincerely thanking you for taking the time to present a calm, reasoned point of view. And I'm serious about taking a little breather now and perhaps starting a global socioeconomics thread at a later date.
Joe
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Map got me started down a road I really shouldn't have gone in this thread
And by the way, this is in no way a slam on Map. Map and I have these sorts of arguments all the time. We both get very passionate, but we also manage to give each other the benefit of the doubt (most of the time), and that prevents the discussions from degenerating into rants. Thus, I am free to be a little less circumspect in my wording, because I know Map will understand.
Unfortunately, I used the same conversational style in the midst of this thread, among folks who are less inclined to give me any leeway in my comments. Once again, I apologize to those offended, and I'm going to back off of this topic for a little while here.
Thanks!
Joe
Sadanand Murthy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 382

Falana Dhimkana : ...

Thanks, Falana, for bringing in an air of sanity & and objectivity. I thought it was getting out of hand & MH (the mod) jumped in, perhaps just in the nick of time.


Bhau Mhatre :

Regarding your preaching:
I agree with your view on withdrawing from a discussion by saying "I am not going to bother to try arguing with you". It is indeed a childish form of forum-pouting. Besides, these fora should not be for arguing but discussing. Discussions will bring out the views from all perspectives that make each of us a better human being (not just a better American or a better Chinese or a better Indian ...). Arguing, on the other hand, ultimately will lead to passions getting inflamed and tempers rising and pretty soon there will a brawl with nothing accomplished (i.e. besides making the moderator's life a little more difficult.
Bhau Mhatre : have a feeling from his psots that Joe is really a good person. God-fearing, patriotic, family man,

Except perhaps for the God-fearing part . I remember in an MD thread he said he was atheist.
But then again he, in this very thread, said "God knows my views have changed...". So perhaps he is, after all, a theist. Or are you just covering your bases, Joe
My 2cents, 2 pence, 2 paise, 2 whatever:
There are certain issues that we all feel very passionately about. Outsourcing & H1/L1 visas are 2 such issues. These issues, like most, have more than 1 POV. If each of us can pause a moment & try to imagine ourselves in the others position we may be able to see the other's POV. But that doesn't negate or nullify how we individually feel about the issue. At least, we, hopefully, won't start baiting the others with certain choice words/phrases or try to get under the others' skin.
I came to US in 1989 from India (btw, I was not trying to get into US; someone I had worked for in India & who was then in US made me an offer). I didn't know, at that time, what the market conditions were for IT in US, especially in C world. I didn't know what the market value was in US for such skills. There was no internet (at least as far as I was concerned) to enable me to find all this information out. I was single at that time. Joe is right; most Indian immigrants tend to be single. I lived in an apartment that I shared with a couple of other single Indians. Again, Joe is right. It didn't inconvenience me financially. I had done all my studies (upto Masters) in India. I didn't have any student loans (almost all Indians who study in India don't) - validation for another of Joe's points.
But, contrary to what Joe thinks:
  • I wanted to live here (I'd a very good job in India).
  • I wanted to settle down and buy a house. And I've.
  • I even married a wonderful American woman (our 13th wedding anniversary is just 3 weeks away).
  • I became a citizen.
  • Throughout all these years, my earnings have, by God's grace, been very good.


  • I can't speak for other IT immigrants. But I've seen that a very substantial number of IT folks who've come from India have continued to live here; making US their home.
    There was a time when locally in US people with certain skills were not available - I'm not saying that the skills were missing here; rather, the supply was less than the demand. Case in point - at one of my client's in a rather smaller midwest city we needed a Sybase/SQLServer dba. This was, I believe, in 1997 or thereabouts. We tried to hire someone from within US, anywhere from within US. No Sybase dba wanted to move to this town. We finally had to go north of the border to get one.
    I also remember, during those heady days of IT boom, the city was looking for IT people and were having difficulty filling in the positions. They went national with their ads advertizing around 50k annual salary entry level (in a town where the average was just about 30k). Still, many positions could not be filled in.
    But that was then. Now, the situation is different. The supply-demand ratio got upended (from what they were then) a couple of years ago. The economy changed. Unfortunately, the government attitude & laws didn't change. I believe in capitalism; but I also believe in fair trade and fair policies. I believe that every government must take care of their citizens. US govt must take care of their citizens, Indian govt must take care of their citizens, ...
    I do believe that the H1/L1 visa programmes are being blatantly, wantonly abused. I believe that these visa programmes are past their utility value. They can always be brought back if the need ever arises. Till such time that they are abolished, these programmes must be very stringently monitored to ensure that the spirit of these programmes is not violated, and to the fullest extent allowed under the law, the violators should be prosecuted.
    Whew. I didn't think I'd so much to say about this.


    Ever Existing, Ever Conscious, Ever-new Bliss
    Sadanand Murthy
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Nov 26, 2003
    Posts: 382
    Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:

    Except perhaps for the God-fearing part . I remember in an MD thread he said he was atheist.

    Oops. That was another Joe. Not Joe Pluta. My apologies, Joe P for this erroneous entry.
    Falana Dhimkana
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jan 13, 2004
    Posts: 38
    Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:

    But that was then. Now, the situation is different. The supply-demand ratio got upended (from what they were then) a couple of years ago. The economy changed. Unfortunately, the government attitude & laws didn't change. I believe in capitalism; but I also believe in fair trade and fair policies. I believe that every government must take care of their citizens. US govt must take care of their citizens, Indian govt must take care of their citizens, ...
    I do believe that the H1/L1 visa programmes are being blatantly, wantonly abused. I believe that these visa programmes are past their utility value. They can always be brought back if the need ever arises. Till such time that they are abolished, these programmes must be very stringently monitored to ensure that the spirit of these programmes is not violated, and to the fullest extent allowed under the law, the violators should be prosecuted.
    Whew. I didn't think I'd so much to say about this.

    Are H1/L1 visas being abused? Sure. But blatantly abused? I am not sure. Only about those people on H1 are being abused who would much rather stay on a really low salary in US than go back home. I think only a very small number of H1 holders are willing to work for cheap. Although L1 is a totally different story. I believe There are no salary regulations on L1.
    My take on H1 is that there has always been something wrong with it. It makes switching jobs for visa holders really hard and job change also sets back the multi-year immigration process to square one for the visa holder. So a large number of H1 holders hold on to their jobs under any circumstances. This is a failure of the immigration process which makes visa holder's life hard and produces unhealthy competition for avaerage American IT worker.
    Should these H1 visa be abolished? I think so. In fact it should be replaced with an immigration program for skilled workers. The program should be based on how many additional workers and in what field the country will need in future. This should be constantly monitored and changed based on upcoming supply-demand gaps.
    Sadanand Murthy
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Nov 26, 2003
    Posts: 382
    Originally posted by Falana Dhimkana:

    Are H1/L1 visas being abused? Sure. But blatantly abused? I am not sure. Only about those people on H1 are being abused who would much rather stay on a really low salary in US than go back home. I think only a very small number of H1 holders are willing to work for cheap. Although L1 is a totally different story. I believe There are no salary regulations on L1.

    H1 workers (don't have any numbers to back this up) can & do fudge their resume for INS purposes. Companies that hire H1s word the job-ad to fit the H1 person to a T. This is clearly abuse. This is clearly done to ensure that the H1 gets hired/stays. Well this info is very old and I know INS laws have changed (so much so that INS as it used to doesn't exist any more).
    L1 is really, really bad. There are some salary requirements by the DoL. But I know someone who is on L1 with his wife and a child who just manages to make ends meet on the stipend that he gets here. His company has filed with the DoL that he is making $5000/month where as he gets about 2400. Even his income tax refund check he has sign and give back to the company. The company is probably the biggest in India. It is certainly the 1st to break the $1-B mark last year. Oh, he is not the only one. My understanding is that all L1 employees of that company in US are treated, exploited is the apt word, the same way.
    Last year there was a furore in England also about such a category.
    I think US has abolished the L1. Am I mistaken about it?
    Mapraputa Is
    Leverager of our synergies
    Sheriff

    Joined: Aug 26, 2000
    Posts: 10065
    BM/McB: I don't know why Map even inserted that here in this thread. I suspect she was missing Joe in MD and was jealous of us who kept Joe engaged here all the time. She probably just wanted to get him back there ?
    Joe: ... and Map got me started down a road I really shouldn't have gone in this thread.

    I didn't plan such a long post exchange, just couldn't resist to comment on what I perceived as ironical circumstances. In past my posts often caused some emotional perturbations in Joe, and frankly, I do not understand why. But recently I noticed that he developed a solid map-proof layer, so I thought it was safe to insert a short remark... But we had a pretty good discussion as a result.
    Waiting for your thread on global economics, Joe. As I said I am largely ignorant on the issue (no, this will NOT prevent me from participation) but hopefully we can attract knowledgeable posters from all around the world.


    Uncontrolled vocabularies
    "I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
    Terimaki Tojay
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Nov 24, 2003
    Posts: 165
    So Joe, are you going to back up your statements on "cheap" and "low cost of living" statements about H1Bs with some numbers as I had done in my previous posts or you are ending the discussion here??
    Please let me know so that I can rest in peace thinking that you are just raking up stuff without any solid proof
    Bela Bardak
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jan 02, 2004
    Posts: 179
    Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:

    I came to US in 1989 from India (btw, I was not trying to get into US; someone I had worked for in India & who was then in US made me an offer).
    But, contrary to what Joe thinks:
  • I wanted to live here (I'd a very good job in India).
  • I wanted to settle down and buy a house. And I've.
  • I even married a wonderful American woman (our 13th wedding anniversary is just 3 weeks away).
  • I became a citizen.
  • Throughout all these years, my earnings have, by God's grace, been very good.


  • I can't speak for other IT immigrants. But I've seen that a very substantial number of IT folks who've come from India have continued to live here; making US their home.

    Sadanand, your story is the bright side of the visa programme and the reason why I've been a supporter of the visa programs over the years. I've worked with many immigrants from India and Pakistan over the years and hold the highest opinion of their value as citizens and green-card holders.
    My problem with the H1B and L1 programs is that they tend to make immigrants into 'captive' employees. Still I cannot see a viable alternative as yet. I'd prefer a system in which immigrants started as H1B holders and progressed into green-card status within 2-3 years.
    Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:
    I do believe that the H1/L1 visa programmes are being blatantly, wantonly abused. I believe that these visa programmes are past their utility value. They can always be brought back if the need ever arises. Till such time that they are abolished, these programmes must be very stringently monitored to ensure that the spirit of these programmes is not violated, and to the fullest extent allowed under the law, the violators should be prosecuted.

    I'm more in favor of the yearly numbers being trimmed and perhaps slots reseved for the healthcare professions. Seems to me there remains a need for more nurses in the US, for example. The problem with the expansion which went through in the late 90's is that H1B has now become institutionalized as the way that certain large organizations fill their lower-level positions. Even though skilled citizen and green-card holders are available they continue to use the H1B program, and that is simply wrong. And illegal.
    A H1B/L1 cutback might induce them to rethink. The numbers can be expanded later if necessary.
    Joe Pluta
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jun 23, 2003
    Posts: 1376
    So Joe, are you going to back up your statements on "cheap" and "low cost of living" statements about H1Bs with some numbers as I had done in my previous posts or you are ending the discussion here??
    Please let me know so that I can rest in peace thinking that you are just raking up stuff without any solid proof

    Hey moderators? Can somebody please moderate this sort of tone? I've been trying really hard to be courteous, and this is the kind of treatment I get.
    And TT while your tone doesn't really deserve an answer, here's one:
    http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/Library/Archives/LCAs.htm
    These are the LCAs, which are public information. This is what the companies use to determine the "prevailing wage" that they will pay H1-B visa holders. Some are okay, some are plainly abusive. For example, note that Fujitsu says the prevailing wage for software engineers is $37K. That's the prevailing wage for an administrative assistant, not a software engineer with a CS degree (which is a requirement for H1-B, by the way).
    IBM: 22 bucks an hour ($44k/yr) for an IT specialist
    U-Haul: 20 bucks an hour for a programmer analyst
    These positions are in some cases less than half the wages you were talking about, and support my position pretty solidly. And of course we have no real verification that anything you have said is true.
    Now, since you're willing to demand proof from me, it's time that you provide us proof that you're not just making up numbers.
    Joe
    Mark Herschberg
    Sheriff

    Joined: Dec 04, 2000
    Posts: 6037
    Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
    So Joe, are you going to back up your statements on "cheap" and "low cost of living" statements about H1Bs with some numbers as I had done in my previous posts or you are ending the discussion here??
    Please let me know so that I can rest in peace thinking that you are just raking up stuff without any solid proof

    Hey moderators? Can somebody please moderate this sort of tone? I've been trying really hard to be courteous, and this is the kind of treatment I get.
    And TT while your tone doesn't really deserve an answer, here's one:

    I'm break this down into two parts. The general approach seems to find me. I myself always challenge statements like that, asking for evidence, and have encouraged others to do the same--attack the argument, not each other.
    As for the tone, yes, the second part of it was snide. However, I can't say that has been the only snide comment in this discussion. I am very hesitant to close threads (even temporarily) because I don't want to appear to be censoring discussions, but since yesterday I've been watching this one closely and it's dancing on the fine line between discussion and flammage.

    I will remind everyone once again to please be extra careful when posting in this thread. We're on strike two.

    --Mark
    Terimaki Tojay
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Nov 24, 2003
    Posts: 165
    Joe, I think you didn't observe the smily after my second statement. In any case, I apologize and I take that statement back since you are offended.
    Now, moving to your numbers: Both the examples that you've given, IBM and UHaul, have substantically higher pay than the prevailing wage. Now, there are couple of things that you are missing:
    1. The prevailing wage is calculated by the govt. NOT by the company. The company has to match or exceed the prevailing wage that the govt. has set.
    2. The prevailing wage is HIGHLY dependent on location where the person is supposed to work. A programmer may get 100K in bay area but may only get 50K in Iowa. The location of work in all your examples are all in underdeveloped (relatively speaking, of course) parts. So I don't see how is this a violation or abuse. In case, you are not aware, if a company moves a person from location 1 to location 2, the company has to get a new LCA for location 2 as per the new prevailing wage. So you can't hire a programmer in Iowa at Iowa salary and put him/her in CA.
    You have to show a case where the company is paying LESS than the prevailing wage.

    Ok, now let me point out other holes in your posts:
    1. You mentioned that H1B compete on low cost of living. After I gave you full description of the situation an H1B works in, I got no argument on that from you.
    2. You mentioned that H1B is cheap labor: After my previous post which pointedly asked you about it, you gave the above numbers which don't prove anything.
    2'. You are questioning the hourly rates that I mentioned my client is paying. All you have to do is look on dice.com or monster.com and see the corp to to corp rates for senior java developers in NYC. You'll not find anything less than 50$Hr. Is that cheap? Remember that, most of the companies that you will find there are themselves not the clients. They are "middle men" or prefered vendors of the real clients. So $50+$10 (min) is what a client would probably pay. How is that cheap???
    Sadanand Murthy
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Nov 26, 2003
    Posts: 382
    Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
    And TT while your tone doesn't really deserve an answer, here's one:
    http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/Library/Archives/LCAs.htm
    These are the LCAs, which are public information. This is what the companies use to determine the "prevailing wage" that they will pay H1-B visa holders. Some are okay, some are plainly abusive. For example, note that Fujitsu says the prevailing wage for software engineers is $37K. That's the prevailing wage for an administrative assistant, not a software engineer with a CS degree (which is a requirement for H1-B, by the way).
    IBM: 22 bucks an hour ($44k/yr) for an IT specialist
    U-Haul: 20 bucks an hour for a programmer analyst
    Joe

    I don't know about this LCA process. However, looking at the forms, it is evident that these prevailing wage entries are for a specific city+state. I don't know for sure but I can conceive of some IT person in Missouri or Arkansas or Alabama getting a rather low per hour rate. I have no idea what an IT person can make/makes in these states. I certainly won't be able to make NY salary/rate in NC.
    Fujitsu's rate is for Houston, TX. I have never lived there and have no idea what the rates are there for SE. Compaq also has an LCA for SE in Houston, TX & their prevailing wage is $27/hr compared to Fujitsu's $18/hr.
    IBM's is for IT Specialist. What the heck is IT Specialist?
    UHaul's PA is at Phoenix, AZ. Again, I have no idea of the rates for a PA there.
    But one thing I noticed. The Rate of Pay Range in most cases are > Prevailing Wage (not much in some instances). I take it that this means that the visa-worker will actually be paid something in the Rate of Pay Range rather than the Prevailing Wage.
    Perhaps the problem is DoL does not require (or do they?) that these companies substantiate their prevailing wage claim with documentary evidence - for example, paystubs of their non-visa employees. I do agree that the "other" category in the LCA form is a huge loophole that you can drive the Queen Mary 2 through.
    Joe Pluta
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jun 23, 2003
    Posts: 1376
    The prevailing wage is calculated by the govt. NOT by the company.
    If you'd even bothered to read the link, you'd know that the prevailing wage is NOT set by the government. I only responded because you were impugning my integrity. Since you don't even have the respect to read the links I present, I won't bother any more.
    Thanks!
    Joe
    Terimaki Tojay
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Nov 24, 2003
    Posts: 165
    Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
    The prevailing wage is calculated by the govt. NOT by the company.
    If you'd even bothered to read the link, you'd know that the prevailing wage is NOT set by the government. I only responded because you were impugning my integrity. Since you don't even have the respect to read the links I present, I won't bother any more.
    Thanks!
    Joe

    I read that, that's why I wrote that it is NOT calculated by the company. I am afraid the information your link has is bogus. Here is the official Dept. Of labor page that lays out the rules for LCA:
    http://workforcesecurity.doleta.gov/foreign/h-1b.asp#fil
    Now, can you answer the questions that I have raised? For your convenience, I am repeating them here again:
    1. You mentioned that H1B compete on low cost of living. After I gave you full description of the situation an H1B works in, I got no argument on that from you.
    2. You mentioned that H1B is cheap labor: After my previous post which pointedly asked you about it, you gave the above numbers which don't prove anything.
    2'. You are questioning the hourly rates that I mentioned my client is paying. All you have to do is look on dice.com or monster.com and see the corp to to corp rates for senior java developers in NYC. You'll not find anything less than 50$Hr. Is that cheap? Remember that, most of the companies that you will find there are themselves not the clients. They are "middle men" or prefered vendors of the real clients. So $50+$10 (min) is what a client would probably pay. How is that cheap???
    Joe Pluta
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jun 23, 2003
    Posts: 1376
    This is purely a courtesy post. I am wasting no more time here. But I suggest you read your own link:
    H-1B status requires a sponsoring U.S. employer; an individual cannot gain H-1B status on his/her own. First, the employer completes preliminary actions prior to filing an application with the DOL. It must determine the prevailing wage for the position using one of following:
    Using a determination for the occupation and area issued under the Service Contract Act or the Davis-Bacon Act;
    Using a rate set forth in a collective bargaining agreement;
    Requesting that a SWA prevailing wage determination be made;
    Using a survey conducted by an independent authoritative source; or
    Using another legitimate source of information

    The loophole is the last statement, "Using another legitimate source of information", which is basically anything the employer chooses to use.
    Regarding your issues, I've already set forth my arguments about cost of living, and I do not consider your anecdotal arguments to be sufficient evidence to refute my points.
    Thanks!
    Joe
    Sadanand Murthy
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Nov 26, 2003
    Posts: 382
    Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:

    I read that, that's why I wrote that it is NOT calculated by the company. I am afraid the information your link has is bogus. Here is the official Dept. Of labor page that lays out the rules for LCA:
    http://workforcesecurity.doleta.gov/foreign/h-1b.asp#fil

    According to that link the prevailing wage is not set by the government. Here is the extract from that link on prevailing wage:

    H-1B status requires a sponsoring U.S. employer; an individual cannot gain H-1B status on his/her own. First, the employer completes preliminary actions prior to filing an application with the DOL. It must determine the prevailing wage for the position using one of following:
  • Using a determination for the occupation and area issued under the Service Contract Act or the Davis-Bacon Act;
  • Using a rate set forth in a collective bargaining agreement;
  • Requesting that a SWA prevailing wage determination be made;
  • Using a survey conducted by an independent authoritative source; or
  • Using another legitimate source of information.


  • Furthermore, from DOL's faq on this:

    4. How do I get a prevailing wage if I am filing an H-1B Labor Condition Application?
    The Immigration and Nationality Act provides that, unlike the other labor certification programs, the employer has the option of using one of three sources: requesting that a SWA prevailing wage determination be made; using a survey conducted by an independent authoritative source; or using another legitimate source of information.
    By obtaining the prevailing wage from the SWA, the employer is given "safe-harbor status", meaning that if the employee's wage compliance is investigated for any reason, Wage and Hour will not challenge the validity of the prevailing wage as long as it was applied properly (i.e., correct geographic area, occupations, and skill level). All other sources may be subject to challenge, which may result in back pay compensation, if the employer did not pay the required wage.
    Any of the sources may be used as long as the survey meets the specified standards (see below).

    Also:

    9. Can employers or attorneys conduct their own occupational surveys?
    Yes. Please note that the survey must meet all the criteria described in the "Standards for Employer Provided Surveys" question number 14. Employers conducting their own survey should be prepared to submit the methodology to the SWA for evaluation.

    And:

    12. Do I always have to use the prevailing wage provided by the SWA?
    No. In all programs you are free to use an employer provided survey, however H-1B employers obtain certain protections by utilizing the SWA provided wage. By obtaining the prevailing wage from the SWA, the employer is given "safe-harbor status", meaning that if the employer's wage compliance is investigated for any reason, Wage and Hour will not challenge the validity of the prevailing wage as long as it is applied properly. All other sources may be subject to challenge which may result in back pay compensation, if the required wage was not paid.

    However, there are some minimum standards that surveys must adhere to:

    14. What are the standards for employer provided surveys for nonagricultural jobs?
    Surveys which employers wish to use as the source of a prevailing wage determination for a nonagricultural job must meet the following standards:
  • The data must have been collected within the last 24 months.
  • If a published survey, the survey must have been published within the last 24 months.
  • The survey must reflect the area of intended employment.
  • The job description of the job to be filled must adequately match the survey job description.
  • The survey generally must be across industries that employ workers in the occupation.
  • The wage must be based on an arithmetic mean.
  • The survey must identify a statistically valid methodology that was used to collect the data.

  • Sadanand Murthy
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Nov 26, 2003
    Posts: 382
    Can we please put this matter to rest? Can we just agree to disagree?
    Can we all just get along
    Joe Pluta
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Jun 23, 2003
    Posts: 1376
    Can we just agree to disagree?
    EXCELLENT suggestion! I am at just that point, Sadanand!
    Joe
    Ajeet Jose
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Dec 05, 2003
    Posts: 68
    All,
    Back to the topic "US tech majors defend outsourcing..."
    let me reload it with some news..
    RedHat CEO to visit India...
    Q: For what?...
    A: for what else.. (read between the lines)
    Joe,
    I would like to see you back in this topic...
    (About book publishing issue, I guess we can continue in another thread..)
    [ January 15, 2004: Message edited by: Ajeet Jose ]
     
    I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
     
    subject: US tech majors defend outsourcing