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Does Man have free will?

Jason Menard
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Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Jamie Robertson:
I'll be pissed off if we don't have free will and I don't get into heaven. That would mean that God chose to send me to Hell because he caused me to do all that sinning...
or does he let everyone in because he determined everyone's future?
Anyways, he should at least feel remorse for making people sin, then not letting them into heaven based on the fact that they sinned!


And that is yet another indication that you have free will. There would be no point in rewarding the good and punishing the evil otherwise.
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
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Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
Originally posted by Jamie Robertson:
Anyways, he should at least feel remorse for making people sin, then not letting them into heaven based on the fact that they sinned!

And you are suprised??
God created nature and nature is harsh. "Survival of the fittest" was created by God in spite of our emotional reaction which makes it seem so mean. Based on knowing that he opted for that in this world, it is not difficult to believe that he would opt for that in getting into the next world with Him (or heaven, or whatever you call it). It's just how he operates.
Course I don't think that God actually "makes" you sin. He just provides the environment and then watches to see how you deal with it. Those things that impact your "spirit" to make it less likely to get there with him are sins. Some things make it much MORE likely that you will get there. Faith for example can out balance a whole lifetime of "sin".


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Jamie Robertson
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Joined: Jul 09, 2001
Posts: 1879

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:

And you are suprised??
God created nature and nature is harsh. "Survival of the fittest" was created by God in spite of our emotional reaction which makes it seem so mean. Based on knowing that he opted for that in this world, it is not difficult to believe that he would opt for that in getting into the next world with Him (or heaven, or whatever you call it). It's just how he operates.
Course I don't think that God actually "makes" you sin. He just provides the environment and then watches to see how you deal with it. Those things that impact your "spirit" to make it less likely to get there with him are sins. Some things make it much MORE likely that you will get there. Faith for example can out balance a whole lifetime of "sin".

My last post was eluding to the fact that we don't have free will, and God has layed out our exact path's in advance. Therefore, he did make me sin ( because he was the one that planned every event in my life ) and I'd be pissed off for not getting into heaven or some such utopia.
If we have free will, then God can not determine my outcome in advance, nor can he influence my free will and then I will be judged accordingly. I'll have no-one to blame but myself in this situation.
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
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Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Originally posted by Jamie Robertson:

My last post was alluding to the fact that we don't have free will, and God has layed out our exact paths in advance. Therefore, he did make me sin (because he was the one that planned every event in my life) and I'd be pissed off for not getting into heaven or some such utopia.

If your path is determined, what prevents you from believing you're going to Hell? If you believe you're going to Hell, what prevents you from sinning without remorse or regret? If you sin without remorse or regret, knowing full well it has not effect on the outcome of your soul, do you not then in fact enjoy freedom of choice?
If we have free will, then God can not determine my outcome in advance, nor can he influence my free will and then I will be judged accordingly. I'll have no-one to blame but myself in this situation.

Really? Are you then also born with a priori knowledge of the difference between right and wrong? From the moment your consciousness expands to appreciate the difference between yourself and the world around you, is the
influence of people your sin or theirs?
Jamie Robertson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 09, 2001
Posts: 1879

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
If your path is determined, what prevents you from believing you're going to Hell? If you believe you're going to Hell, what prevents you from sinning without remorse or regret? If you sin without remorse or regret, knowing full well it has not effect on the outcome of your soul, do you not then in fact enjoy freedom of choice?

My point is that if you DO NOT have free will, then God determines your path. So, why would he judge me, you and everyone else at the gates of heaven when he was responsible for your actions of sin in the first place? Everyone's life is just a small part in this movie played out by God. Feelings, remorse, freedom of choice are just an illusion planted by God to keep us interested in participating!
Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Really? Are you then also born with a priori knowledge of the difference between right and wrong? From the moment your consciousness expands to appreciate the difference between yourself and the world around you, is the
influence of people your sin or theirs?

my comments were more of a "light hearted generalization" of the argument "if you have free will...if you don't...". I agree with you that culture determines what an individual perceives as right and wrong ( or at least it creates a baseline to measure up to ). But in my "if you have free will" case, I guess right and wrong must be laid out in the bible, since it is the word of God right??. Maybe we should start another thread "The official guidelines as to Who gets in and who doesn't. All cases considered".
Jason Menard
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Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Who gets in and who doesn't
Guess it depends on who you ask. Christians, Jews, and Muslims, at least, may give slightly different answers.
Anthony Villanueva
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1055
What about we atheists?
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Wanting entrance into a Heaven that doesn't exist? You're not a very good atheist, I'm afraid.
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Mmm, I'm not persuaded that lack of free will is an antonym to predetermination/predestination. If we want to argue that by choosing between Heaven and Hell we lack free will (there is no alternative, even if we can think of one), then I'm with you. If we want to propose alternatives outside God's boundaries that we are denied by God's rule, then yeah, we're fated.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
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Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Wanting entrance into a Heaven that doesn't exist? You're not a very good atheist, I'm afraid.
Looks to me like Anthony was responding to Jason's "Christians, Jews, and Muslims, at least, may give slightly different answers." Anthony's response was basically "what, you're not going to ask us?"


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