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Change Of Faith

Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
The Catholic church is probably the most different from Protestant churches, and there are many things that I RADICALLY oppose in their teachings

Many American Catholics have issues with some of the Catholic teachings, particularly when it comes to things such as birth control. When that happens, usually that particular Church teaching is ignored.
John Lee
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Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Posts: 2545
i want to have faith in Christian, that is why i start going to church.
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
You must not commit any sins in the first place.
Why? And atheists don't actually believe in sin so properly this should be "you can't commit any sins in the first place".
You must attend church to appreciate its architecture and the greatness of common people who bult and decorated it
One of the many reason that people attend Church.
You must attend church rarely to be open-minded.

What an odd thought! The way to be open-minded is to not listen to other points of view? Is that what atheists really believe?
Priests/Nuns should get a real job and a life instead of engaging in sexual activities that are not approved in the state of Texas
I don't believe celibacy is "not approved" in Texas. Priests and nuns do have real jobs. Many nuns serve as nurses or social workers or teachers. Priests provide grief counseling, communtiy building, and many other activities.
You must be an infant if you belive in Heaven
The best way to approach God is as an infant since He is our Father.
Lots of anti-Christ rethorics, etc.
Are they opposed to "love one another as you love yourself"?


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Jim Yingst
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[Cindy to Eugene]: Perhaps your confusion is that you are considering Lutheran, Baptist, Catholic etc different religions.
Looking at the beginning of this thread, Eugene was originally talking about a Catholic/Jewish conversion. Subsequently he brought up Muslims, Hindus, and atheism. There's just a little more difference between these than there is between Lutheran and Baptist I think. Perhaps the same core divinity is behind them all (except atheism of course , and Hinduism has less in common than Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), but switching from one to the other among this group is still non-trivial. In my posts, I talked more about groups within Protestantism because that's what I'm more familiar with, and then tried to extend the discussion back to the wider group of religions Eugene originally addressed.
So basically, I think Eugene is talking about bigger differences than you are, Cindy. Though it's true that his perception of the frequency of cross-religion conversions in the US may have been also influenced by hearing of many intra-Christian conversions, and so it may be worth pointing out that these are not such a big deal. Just don't think that these were all Eugene was talking about.
[ May 02, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
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Yeah, I agree that he was probably talking about more than just intra-protestant conversions. I just wanted to exclude those from the conversation.


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John Lee
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but there are so many differebt churchs, I am confused..
John Smith
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Posts: 2937
Jim Yingst: Perhaps the same core divinity is behind them all (except atheism of course , and Hinduism has less in common than Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), but switching from one to the other among this group is still non-trivial.
Yes, that's the point, thank you, Jim. Perhaps I could expand a little to clarify it. What I see is the military chaplain blessing the American troups to kill, yet certain court houses are decorated with the "you shall not kill" posts. I see the horrific images of war in newspapers and on television screens, shown in the light of the glory and might of the American military and democracy, yet the images of the beatiful nude women are considered filthy and are banned on public TV. I see people converting from "Jesus is our Lord, Son of God, the Saviour" to "What Jesus? There was only Moses!", -- and it is as easy and justified as changing the underwear. I see that oral sex with your wife is a criminal offense in Texas, yet it is legal for the President of the United States to do it with the intern. I see that the communist party is banned in the US, yet most Americans agree with the progressive taxation. I see "In God We Trust" on a dollar bill, what kind of shit is that? Is it really so hard to see how ridiculous it is?
I see the false values and hypocracy all over around me and I cry. Am I losing my mind, am I going crazy, or is it the world around me that is mad? Do I have to be part of this madness, to conform, to adapt to a common opinion, to pretend that all of this somehow makes sense?
No, these things are worth fighting for. God came to me the other day and he told me this. The military chaplain who uses the name of God to bless the troups to kill should be sent to a military prison. The images of B-2 dropping bombs on Iraq should be considered filthy, and instead the images of nude women should be shown to small children so that they can learn the concept of beauty from very early age. The person who converts from Christianity to Judaism (or vice versa) just because of the marriage should be given $100 for selling his/her soul. The Christians of Texas should stay as far away from my god damned bedroom as they are trying to stay away from Hell. The US currency should have it written in all caps: "Lust for money is the root of all evil."
Jim Yingst
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Perhaps I could expand a little to clarify it.
Sounds like you've expanded a lot, and will probably manage to inadventently muddy the waters by creating a lot of loosely-related spinoff discussions. Such is the nature of MD of course...
What I see is the military chaplain blessing the American troups to kill, yet certain court houses are decorated with the "you shall not kill" posts.
Sounds like you should be complaining about a shoddy translation. The original Hebrew form of this commandment said that you must not commit "ratsach", which is more properly translated "murder" rather than "kill". The Old Testament will provide plenty of support for the idea that killing as acceptable and even required under certain circustances. It's unlawful killing that's considered "murder" and banned by this commandment. There's plenty more that might be said on this topic (and has been, in various past discussions) but if you want to do so, it would probably fit better in a separate topic. I'll just note that the contrast between "thou shalt not kill" and "just war" has been present in the Bible all along; it's not something that modern American society invented.
I see people converting from "Jesus is our Lord, Son of God, the Saviour" to "What Jesus? There was only Moses!", -- and it is as easy and justified as changing the underwear.
Massive overstatement here, unless changing underwear is a fairly rare and difficult thing for you? Have you really seen so many of these people? (I haven't.) Have you talked to them extensively to get a better sense of their reasons? (Or did you just piss them off with your judgemental attitude before you learned what they really thought?) I doubt their Christian beliefs were very stong - giving them up isn't that big a deal. Now I don't know how strong their new Jewish beliefs are, and this may be more of a problem. If a person is merely pretending to convert when in fact they just don't care that much, the new religion may have a legitimate interest in keeping the person out of their religion. But it's also possible that the person is genuinely seeking a new religion to that fits them better, and maybe their choice was guided by their now spouse, but it could still be a sincere choice - in which case, what's the problem?
I see that oral sex with your wife is a criminal offense in Texas, yet it is legal for the President of the United States to do it with the intern.
Sure - as long as they're not in Texas.
I agree though that the laws about this in Texas and some other states are highly objectionable, so I won't argue with you on this point.
I see that the communist party is banned in the US, yet most Americans agree with the progressive taxation. I see "In God We Trust" on a dollar bill, what kind of shit is that? Is it really so hard to see how ridiculous it is?
As a fellow atheist, I just don't find this motto that troubling. I see it as an acknowledgement that the majority of US founders believed in God. Fine. As long as they're not trying to dictate my beliefs, or the beliefs of others, I don't care. We can probably find other examples in this vein that I would care more about, but the motto on the money isn't one of them. You may be interested in this old Pledge of Allegiance discussion though.
As for the latter parts of your post - eh, I'm tired. Let's just say your penchant for colorful hyperbole makes it all too easy to write off your other points as the rantings of a madman.
[ May 02, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
Let's just say your penchant for colorful hyperbole makes it all too easy to write off your other points as the rantings of a madman.
[ May 02, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

In an insane world would not the sane appear as madmen?
John Smith
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Posts: 2937
Herb: In an insane world would not the sane appear as madmen?
Ah, should I take this as a sign of support? Well, whatever the case, I love you both, Jim and Herb, although one of you is a god damn atheist and the other one is a fundamental Christian whose mind is clouded by the devil.
Actually, in a moment of truth, I thought I found all the answers that I was looking for. It occured to me that if you follow and do what you think is right, then it is the moral thing to do, by universal standards. But then a big disapointment came: if Hitler thought he was doing the right thing, then killing 20 million people is moral. Doesn't fit my hypothesis somehow. So I am still searching. But I'd like to thank you all for your help and effort.
[ May 02, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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I see that the communist party is banned in the US...

The Communist Party is not banned in the USA. They field candidates every election day along with all the other fringe parties.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
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Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
In an insane world would not the sane appear as madmen?
Probably so. But so do many of the actual madmen. I get to pick and choose which parts I'll respond to.
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
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Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
I see the false values and hypocrisy all over around me and I cry. Am I losing my mind, am I going crazy, or is it the world around me that is mad? Do I have to be part of this madness, to conform, to adapt to a common opinion, to pretend that all of this somehow makes sense?
I saved your whole post, brother, in case this thread will be deleted (you never know...) I couldn't express it better. This is a certain type of experience speaking, namely "to be an exile", and lack of such experience probably makes people oblivious to what you have to say... From what I observed, this doesn't stop you, which means you achieved a high rank in your spiritual development and words spoken do not prevent you from understanding, and you can feel souls in spite of all insults and closeness; if so, you do not need my endorsement, but at least accept my confession in love, as meaningless and pointless as it truly is.


Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Actually, in a moment of truth, I thought I found all the answers that I was looking for. It occured to me that if you follow and do what you think is right, then it is the moral thing to do, by universal standards.
If you want a universal standard, act the way you wish everyone else would act. Do unto others as you wish they would do unto you.
John Smith
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Posts: 2937
if so, you do not need my endorsement, but at least accept my confession in love, as meaningless and pointless as it truly is.
Love you too, Map!
Your brother forever, Eugene.
John Smith
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Posts: 2937
If you want a universal standard, act the way you wish everyone else would act. Do unto others as you wish they would do unto you.
Love you, Tom! Wanna have intercourse?
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Love you, Tom! Wanna have intercourse?

This is about as much intercourse as I wish to have with you.
Shura Balaganov
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Posts: 664
This is one of the most spiritual threads I've read in MD.


Any posted remarks that may or may not seem offensive, intrusive or politically incorrect are not truly so.
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Balaji Loganathan
author and deputy
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Joined: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 3150
Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

Are you asking me, what will I prefer. I will prefer arrange marriage

Just joking or are you serious!.. ??
Tonny Tssagovic
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Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 226
Dear Eugene,
I was just wondering if you found a solution to your problem(What religion is right /if any� well if u take it as one)
I am amazed how can programmers think about religion. I thought they don�t have time to think about these kinda issues.
Anyways, I have some hints that you might use:
-First, cancel out all religions that call for war (if any) or that have stupid mistakes in their bible (or equivalent).. God does not make mistakes.
-You don�t have to talk to a priest (or equivalent in other religions) about your sins. (God can hear you whenever/wherever you are) ask him for guidance, since I can prove to u mathematically that he Exists.
-Get some books about comparative religion or invite a bunch of friends with different believes that you think are good people, and are not THE loosers of the society and have a chat with them,.(And u will defend the atheism)
Well there are many, I can add some later when I get your feedback.
By the way this requires you to be serious, and demands a considerable amount of time, so we will let you find out while we program, once you come up to a conclusion, post a message in the forum to save us time, and then we will all pray god for you to show us the right path
Awaiting your reply!
PS: I can assure you that God will reward you if you help others, So help me out on my posts on Perofmrance :roll: :roll:
John Smith
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TT: I can prove to u mathematically that he Exists.
Bring it on!
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Intriguing! The hunt is on.Borrowed from various sources.....
Mathematical Proof
Let x = y
xy = yy
xy-xx = yy-xx
x(y-x) = (y+x)(y-x)
x = x+y but x = y so
x = x+x
x = 2x
1 = 2
0 = 1
so if there are no gods, there is one god.
Advanced Mathematical Proof
Let G(t) be equal to the set of second-order axiomatic systems, and let P be a proof with a Godel number of the form... [continue for 2374 pages] ... therefore Q is a member of H(z), therefore God exists. If you think there is an error here, you find it.
Biblical Prediction
The Bible says "The last shall be first and the first shall be last." This is clearly a reference to a stack in a computer. If the Bible can predict something like this amost 2000 years in advance, it must be infallible.
From "Teddy" by J.D. Salinger:
"I was six when I saw that everything was God, and my hair stood up, and all," Teddy said. "It was on a Sunday, I remember. My sister was only a tiny child then, and she was drinking her milk, and all of a sudden I saw that she was God and the milk was God. I mean, all she was doing was pouring God into God, if you know what I mean."
[ January 12, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Joe King
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Joined: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 820
Has anyone else noticed that believing in Santa is a bit like a children's practice religion.... a bit like the way that children have toy cars and toy kitchens, they have a toy religion:
* They think that there is a magical being who can tell they have been good or bad.
* Despite the evidence to the contrary (i.e. lack of chimney), they think they will still be rewarded for being good.
* They will get punished for being bad (no presents)
* Miracles (delivering umpteen million presents in one night)
* A dodgy beard. OK, I'm not saying that this is the sole preserver of religions (this could make Richard Branson part of a religion), but religious people do tend to often get a bit hairy.
(... and what about Santa's use of slave (elf) labour to make the presents?)
Anyway, we all think that Santa is nonsense (sorry to all the kids reading this ), but as adults many believe in the same stuff with a slightly larger santa.
While on the subject, can someone answer the following?
* If there is a magic plan with the whole of our lives planned out in detail, wouldn't our choices and decisions ruin that plan? Surely this means that a Plan and Free Will cannot co-exist.
* Some farmers (most years after christ was alive) wrote some stuff about him. Why do some people believe every word in the bible as exact truth? If I wrote a new testament now, no-one would believe me, but they believe some guy centuries ago?
* Centuries before christ, there was a roman legend about the God Mithras. Mithras came to earth as a human, had 12 followers and then got crucified. Hmmm, sound familiar? There's been loads of similar stories, loads of prophets and sons of gods, loads of religious books and loads of religions. Out of all of them, why is your the right one?
Fascinating conversation by the way... keep it up
Tonny Tssagovic
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Posts: 226
Well for now I don't have time;-) But I will come with it FOR SURE.. so keep tuned..
Well just a few hints..
I will (probably) use proof by contradication...
So I might start by asking you some questions:
- Who brought u to live? (well not ur mom. I am talking about all human beings...) and if you believe in darwinism or revolution blah blah .. then foget about it .. that way even your PC which is "most likely" less complex then you could have just happen to come up from "evolution" (and in that case, I would be gratefull if you told me where these PCs evolve).
- U must know that there is perfect harmony in this universe.. and this should be controlled by "someone" .. "Mother nature"?
Awaiting your reply..
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
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Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Well, it sounds like you'll be using a very loose interpretation of the terms "mathematically" and "prove". But I'll wait to see what you come up with...
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
TT: U must know that there is perfect harmony in this universe<sup>1</sup>.. and this should be controlled by "someone" .. "Mother nature"?
Awaiting your reply..

http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/149/
------------
<sup>1</sup>) For a better grasp on "perfect harmony" concept, visit the "Job discussion" forum (for not to send you too far).
Tony Alicea
Desperado
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Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 3222
    
    5
If there's a "god" then he, she, or it is imperfect.
So it's just like we are. Images and likeness of it? Right?
I say god is imperfect because an earthquakeqe recently killed tens of thousands of people; because it allowed this or the other to happen etc. Long list.
Wake up and follow your senses. It's the only thing that can be followed and even they lie to us once in a while (our senses).
If it's true that it's a part of Judaism, then I like this statemente from Judaism: The purpose of Man is to try to correct God's miskates.
As I implied, I have no idea if there's such a teaching in said religion, but if there was, it makes a lot of sense to me.
We humans are the "last line of defense." Against what, I have no idea! (Ourselves!?)
[ January 12, 2004: Message edited by: Tony Alicea ]

Tony Alicea
Senior Java Web Application Developer, SCPJ2, SCWCD
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Joe King:
Despite the evidence to the contrary (i.e. lack of chimney), they think they will still be rewarded for being good.
Kids nowadays cotton on that Santa must be having his post delivered by ParcelForce.
A dodgy beard. OK, I'm not saying that this is the sole preserver of religions (this could make Richard Branson part of a religion), but religious people do tend to often get a bit hairy.

While on the subject, can someone answer the following?
* If there is a magic plan with the whole of our lives planned out in detail, wouldn't our choices and decisions ruin that plan? Surely this means that a Plan and Free Will cannot co-exist.

Surely that's proof enough of believing and submitting to His Will."Thy will be done".... Sounds mathematical to me. (x) exists and therefore (y) is. if (x) is not then (y) isn't.
Nice post BTW.
Tonny Tssagovic
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Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 226
Hmmm U guys are pushing it too much.. I was just kidding..
Well, I was good in math when I was kid my friend .. and maybe it is not going to be directly math, but well logic (with my poor English, and the poor English syntax) that one could easily compile to formulae or at least get the point..
Anyway.. It seems that there are a lots of non-believers.. so to make it a bit fair, I would invite all the ones that believe in God to join me.

So here are the rules of the game (if you permit):
- One should be open minded.. It just reminds me of a friend (called Milosevic!!))that did not believe in any thing.. He was always telling me "I thought that you were intelligent.. how can u believe in such a crap..".. it seems nowadays that the ones that do believe are close minded psychos that have been brain washed..
- We should take this discussion as a way one could give his arguments so we end up with "some" conclusion.. And not have a conclusion beforehand.. This could be as simple as this: We all know that we are going to die.. some PPL talk about going to hell /heaven, so to be on the safe side, we would better investigate if this is right/wrong before it is too late. If I believe in God (Are u sure I do?), then I will try to invite you to do the same, as I believe that this would save you, I might convince you and we both end-up happy or you convince me and get me back to my mind and we will all be cool (a.k.a atheists). In case we have different religions, and we all think we are right, then just try to convince me that urs is Ok, if you do I will join you for sure, as I don�t wanna roast in hell.
Now before the message gets too long, I have two questions/points to ask/raise to the Atheist group:
- If you were in the middle of a desert and are dying thirsty, and there is none to help you, what would you do? Ask god for help? If you have ever been in a bad situation (Maybe in the middle of a java exam), didn�t you ask for God�s help? It is as simple as that, it is a built in function, kinda code that gets executed without your intention.
- If you don�t believe in that there is live after death, could you explain me what Is the purpose of life? I mean your body is composed of many complex parts, what�s the purpose of the whole, nothing? And by the way, did you choose where to be born? And in this case life is not fair, some people just got-up in a poor family/country that they starve.. well if there was an other life, then if you add� em up together /2 = totally FAIR.
Awaiting your reply!
PS: I still don�t have time to write a full Math proof about why God exists. So take it easy.
[ January 12, 2004: Message edited by: Tonny Tssagovic ]
Tonny Tssagovic
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Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 226
Originally posted by Joe King:
Anyway, we all think that Santa is nonsense [/QB]

Really
Tonny Tssagovic
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 226
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/149/
------------
<sup>1</sup>) For a better grasp on "perfect harmony" concept, visit the "Job discussion" forum (for not to send you too far).[/QB]

Muhahah .. Good one,
PS: let me know when the work is finished. I can tell you that for a simple sattelite dynamics simulation we had to put-away 1000's of "small factors".. and you still need to go home before you can see a simulation.
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
TT: - If you were in the middle of a desert and are dying thirsty, and there is none to help you, what would you do? Ask god for help? If you have ever been in a bad situation (Maybe in the middle of a java exam), didn’t you ask for God’s help?
No. For one thing, why would I ask help from "something" which existence I do not believe? For another, what would be the purpose? If God can hear my requests, surely he/she/it can see my plight without my pointing his/her/its attention to it? And if God found it necessarily to help, surely he/she/it would help.
- If you don’t believe in that there is live after death, could you explain me what Is the purpose of life? I mean your body is composed of many complex parts, what’s the purpose of the whole, nothing?
From global POV? Nothing. What is the purpose of cockroach's life?
--------------------
"Russians are a very logical people: but their logic is often based on mad premises."
My A-level hell, by Lord Skidelsky
Hill Billy
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 12, 2004
Posts: 1
Here is my 2 cents concering Islam.
Islam literally means "peace" but would expand to mean "Peace by submitting to God's will". A Muslim is "One who submits his will before God to attain peace".
1. The concept of God in Islam I would say is more closer to the Jewish concept. When I compare it what is explained to me by the Jewish and Christian friends. Allah is one of the 99 words for God in Arabic. However the concept of Unity of God is central to Islam. That is God is all powerful, omnipotent and has no equal or likeness in the Universe. This includes not associating any partners with God. This may not only be dieties but those who consider money, power etc superior to God are also associating partners to Allah.
2. Second is the concept that Allah sent messengers (or prophets) to all nations. More than 140,000 in total were sent though only a few are mentioned in the Quran. Some scholars of Islam believe that Confusious etc could also have been among these messengers.
However the most important ones are those who were sent with direct revelations from God. Psalms of David, Torah of Moses, Bible of Jesus and Quran of Mohammed. Islam actually considers all Prophets to be Muslim (those who submitted their will before God). In one place in the Quran it refers to Abraham (who came before Moses and Jesus) and the Quran says:
Quran 003.067
Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.
Quran 003.068
Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.
3. Islam believes Jesus son of Mary as being a Prophet. It is salvation if you follow his teaching. As to follow other prophets teachings:
Quran 002.062
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
However Islam is considered to be the final revelation when the "deen" or Faith was perfected.
4. Muslims believe that everyone will be judged for his or her own actions. Mercy is directly from asking God for forgiveness and repenting. There is no original Sin and Muslims don't believe in the Crucifixtion of Jesus. Muslims believe that Jesus was never crucified and everyone is responsible for his or her own deeds.
Other than that there is belief in Day of Judegement, Angels, Pre-ordained destiny.
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Intriguing! The hunt is on.Borrowed from various sources.....
Mathematical Proof
Let x = y
xy = yy
xy-xx = yy-xx
x(y-x) = (y+x)(y-x)
x = x+y but x = y so
x = x+x
x = 2x
1 = 2
0 = 1
so if there are no gods, there is one god.

Mathematical Proof
Let x = y
xy = yy
xy-xx = yy- xx
-x(y- (-x)) = (y + x)(y-x)
-x(y+x) = (y + x)(y-x)
-x = y-x
0 = y
so God is nothing.

Mathematical Proof
Let x = y
xx = yy
xx-xy = yy-xy
x(x-y) = y(y-x)
x (x-y) = -y (x-y)
x = -y
So who is God is, that is also Satan.

And obviously if there are no gods, there is one god.
AW if you see, that all these equations are true only in the case of '0' (Zero) and that is also if you consider -0 = +0
Yes, I am agree with you, Zero is God. It also does not exist and it is also just a representation.
Now we should discuss what is multiplication and division is in the life??
Because add or subtract anything from zero number remain same.
But if you multiply with 0 then that becomes 0 but if you divide then that becomes infinte.
See, infinte is also just a representaion of our imagination.
so God exists in our imagination only . It is also said, if you believe then its God else its nothing but a stone. (Mano Toh Bhagwan, Mano Toh Pathar)
[ January 13, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Joe King
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Joined: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 820
It does make me laugh how many people think "Your religion is totally crackpot, while my equally odd one is perfectly perfect". Thinking about it, this isn't so funny - its probably one of the most serious problems in the world at the moment, with so many people thinking that other people are, at a fundamental level of their world view, totally wrong (and even slightly crazy).
Anyway, I saw in the news today that (in the UK) church attendence is down by 4% over the last year (I'm trying to find a URL). I wonder if this means that less people are religious now, or less people feel the need to go to church. Being part of the opposition (a goddam athiest of all horrible things [and a socialist in my spare time ]) I cant say that this is bad news for me, although it is very intersting - for much of history a vast number of the population of europe regularly went to church. The drop in church attendence seen over the last generation will probably go down in history as one of the major social changes of the last millenium or so.
Tonny Tssagovic
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Joined: Dec 30, 2003
Posts: 226
Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
[QB]
No. For one thing, why would I ask help from "something" which existence I do not believe?

Well Map, it seems that wouldn't work with you since you have not been in a damn difficult situation recently, which caused that part of the built in function to be garbage collected.
Anyway, let�s try another one; would you believe me if I told you that this message has been written by random bits caused by some noise that happened to be on the wire connected to the Forum�s server (aka been without the �intervention� of someone)? Or maybe that If I put a peace of metal, after some time (well even after million years) it will become a BMW?(Of course without the intervention of someone/Something again)? Well my point is that there is nothing that exists for itself, even if I see a cup of tea in my desk, I know that someone must have brought it, even if I don�t see him, I see his (or the result of his) act. The same goes for everything around you/inside you, they did not just happen to come up like this!
If There exists a creature => There exists at least One creator.
PS: Please let me know where I can put some metal to evolve to a BMW, I really need one!
[ January 13, 2004: Message edited by: Tonny Tssagovic ]
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
TT: Well Map, it seems that wouldn't work with you since you have not been in a damn difficult situation recently, which caused that part of the built in function to be garbage collected.
Possible. What do you mean by "a damn difficult situation"? Could you give, say, three examples? Because otherwise we are at risk of tautological style of thinking: it is always possible to say that I didn't ask God for help because I wasn't in a difficult enough situation. And we know that the situation wasn't difficult enough, because I did not ask for help.
--------------------
"I see you spell colour incorrectly" -- HS Thomas
Joe King
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Joined: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 820
Originally posted by Tonny Tssagovic:

Anyway, let�s try another one; would you believe me if I told you that this message has been written by random bits caused by some noise that happened to be on the wire connected to the Forum�s server (aka been without the �intervention� of someone)? Or maybe that If I put a peace of metal, after some time (well even after million years) it will become a BMW?(Of course without the intervention of someone/Something again)? Well my point is that there is nothing that exists for itself, even if I see a cup of tea in my desk, I know that someone must have brought it, even if I don�t see him, I see his (or the result of his) act. The same goes for everything around you/inside you, they did not just happen to come up like this!
If There exists a creature => There exists at least One creator.
[ January 13, 2004: Message edited by: Tonny Tssagovic ]

One of the main reasons that religion has lasted so long is that it provides a nice complete answer to things we dont understand about the universe. In early times people didnt know what the sun was, so they called it a magical entity. Now many people dont know how the universe formed, so they say there is a magical entity behind it. By telling themselves this, they get the comfort of thinking that the universe isnt as confusing and crazy as it appears. The thing is that the universe is huge. Its an near to infinity in size as we could comprehend, so there is no way we could understand it. To say that "there must be a god because how else could this have happened" is like saying "I dont understand it, so the answer must be magic" (a child's common answer to themselves about things they dont understand). Just accept that fact that the universe is big, confusing and that there doesnt need to be a reason or a cause behind it. Besides, if there was a reason behind it, what makes you think that your puny human brain could possibly comprehend something so huge? We may as well just chill out and see what happens after we die.
For me, the argument that life implies god is total rubbish. In the universe are trillions of stars. If 1% of those has planets, and 1% of those planets could have life giving conditions and 1% of those have life, then we're still talking about far more planets then we could possibly count. Life isnt that special - given the numbers, it was bound to happen somewhere. If it happens in enough places, then eventually one of these planets is going to produce intelligence. Face it - we're nothing special As for why we haven't seen any signs of life out there.... well, given all the "1%"'s I was mentioning above, the planets with life on them are probably hugely spread out accross the universe.
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:
BTW, democrats dont take away your cow they'd let you keep the cow and take one mug of milk away to feed the cowless people.

No, they'd take away the cow and tell the (formerly) cowless person to send you a mug of milk (of course without penalties if they don't oblige).
Communists would take away both cows, NOT send you a mug of milk, and blame the capitalists for not giving you another cow to feed you in case you die of starvation.
Republicans would tax you a jug of milk and when you slaughter it a part of the meat (and not the best part either).


42
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by herb slocomb:

Most religions are monotheistic, and even apparantly polytheistic religions are, at deeper study, monotheistic since most of them see the various divinities as expressions of the One Divinity at their deeper levels. So, the odds are that by picking any of the religions, regardless of the terminology they use, you are worshipping the same God. Remember that God can manifest in many ways, and also be perceived in varying ways, hence the multiplicity of religions. To be extra safe, go with the creator of earth and/or sky God.

Are you certain of that?
I think a point can also be made of the idea that most religions are polytheistic, even those that seem to be monotheistic because those often for convenience pray to a single entity that is really nothing more than a combination of all the things they're REALLY deifying.
Take Christianity. God is described openly as "the Holy trinity", thus 3 personae not one.
 
It is sorta covered in the JavaRanch Style Guide.
 
subject: Change Of Faith
 
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