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Protest Marches

R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Please read the UN resolutions and tell me which parts you don't understand.

Please re-read what-ever you have read already and if you dont understand then please dont bother me.
As it is said, its better to not to understand than mis-understand.
I wish this Economic & Social rights organisation might break your beliefs and definition of anti-americanism.

It is the height of hypocrisy for the U.S. and U.K. to base war on Resolution 1441 when they are fully aware that France, Russia and China approved that resolution on explicit written condition that it could not be used by individual states to justify military action

And you might be interested in this document also.. This article is more tecnical in terms of explaining illegality of war.
You might hate to read this.
[ November 27, 2003: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
Fix the police force and the courts is the answer. Unfortunately the UK political system doesn't have democracy at the right level of granualarity to do that.

The UK police are implementing a system where the public have some say in how the area should be policed.New technology is making this easier to do.
Capturing a thug at work on camera gets the case filed at court immediately.
Perhaps Granny could have a mobile with a camera for Xmas !
But it's upto the public as well to ensure this advantage remains fraud free. The public have been known to rip off Insurance Companies. I know several well-paid professionals who admit openly to doing this. The result is premiums go up and everyone ends up paying for it. Insurance Companies turn a blind eye because ultimately they get richer.I recently worked on an insurance system where they are trying to close this loop with new tech at the behest of the government.If the public want democracy they have to
follow through.
I wonder why Aldous Huxley said :
"Technology progress has merely povided us with more efficient means of going backwards".
regards
[ November 27, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
Steve Wink: "I guess my concern was that people on this board seemed to dismiss criticism of certain policies as mere anti-Americanism, which does stifle the debate."
I think it's anti-American to assume that Bush _lied_ about weapons of mass destruction when the evidence is that Saddam Hussein deliberately tried to fool people into thinking he had them or was developing them (in order to enhance his power and prestige in the Arab world). It's sort of like a cop shooting a robber whose pistol turns out to be a mere replica.
I think it's also anti-American not to understand that the fight against terrorism _required_ America to:
(1) Get its soldiers out of Saudi Arabia (which required neutralization of Saddam's threat,
(2) End the starvation and misery of the Iraqi people under the sanctions we _all_ were imposing because _everyone_ believed he was trying to develop weapons of mass destruction, and
(3) Re-engage the Palestinian-Israeli peace process -- which required neutralization of Saddam's efforts to bolster the radocal Palestinians opposed to the two-state solution advocated by (among other people) Europeans.
I think once can criticize a policy of Bush without expressing hatred and contempt for his presidency.
If a European criticized the invasion by saying, "I don't believe this invasion will help you achieve these noble goals, for these reasons..." then that would be a reasonable, non-antiAmerican criticsm. To say that it's not antiAmerican to marching with a sign calling America the new Evil Empire while saying things like, "America is the biggest threat to world peace" is ludicrous.
(I, personally, was terrified by the audacity of Bush's intentions, but I decided I had no choice but to trust him -- after being so disgusted by the outrageousness of his critics going into the war.)
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
I think it's anti-American to assume that Bush _lied_ about weapons of mass destruction when the evidence is that Saddam Hussein deliberately tried to fool people into thinking he had them or was developing them (in order to enhance his power and prestige in the Arab world). It's sort of like a cop shooting a robber whose pistol turns out to be a mere replica.

I like this new theory.
What about the proves which were being shown before war ??
AW what do you say about this.

We believe that people of conscience must take responsibility for what their own governments do -- we must first of all oppose the injustice that is done in our own name. Thus we call on all Americans to RESIST the war and repression that has been loosed on the world by the Bush administration. It is unjust, immoral, and illegitimate. We choose to make common cause with the people of the world.

For Joe:

We too watched with shock the horrific events of September 11, 2001. We too mourned the thousands of innocent dead and shook our heads at the terrible scenes of carnage -- even as we recalled similar scenes in Baghdad, Panama City, and, a generation ago, Vietnam. We too joined the anguished questioning of millions of Americans who asked why such a thing could happen.

For Jason:

President Bush has declared: “you’re either with us or against us.” Here is our answer: We refuse to allow you to speak for all the American people. We will not give up our right to question.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Ravish, these people can't even spell their own name correctly:
The report, issued by the New York-based Center for Economic and Social Right,
The name of the organization is the Center for Economic and Social Rights, and they're hardly an unbiased source .
Joe
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
The UK police are implementing a system where the public have some say in how the area should be policed.New technology is making this easier to do.

The US long-ago perfected a method where the public has the last say on the performance of part of the law enforcement establishment and the prosecution of criminals.
It's called democracy and requires printed ballots. Elected county sherrifs and district attorneys...
Not perfect but it is a voice....

Capturing a thug at work on camera gets the case filed at court immediately.
Perhaps Granny could have a mobile with a camera for Xmas !

And the judge would then let the thug out, either directly or on appeal. No?
Elected judges, mebbe? Another questionable Yankee innovation.
[ November 27, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

SCJP1.4, SCWCD
R K Singh
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 5371
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Ravish, these people can't even spell their own name correctly:
Joe

But IMHO they are as much American as you are.
And thats my point, being anti-war or anti-bush does not make anyone anti-American.
For Jason:
It applies outside America also. (though they are not american).
Being anti-war/anti-bush does not make anyone anti-US.
But obviously, every fool has right to stick to his own foolish view.
PS: I am calling my views to be foolish.
[ November 27, 2003: Message edited by: R K Singh ]
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

And the judge would then let the thug out, either directly or on appeal. No?
Elected judges, mebbe? Another questionable Yankee innovation.

Yankee invention ? Law ?
US law is most definitely based on law derived from the original law of this land the Magna Carta.As words quoted by the judge who heard the Monica Lewinsky- Clinton case.
Here's a thread I made earlier
Today the Magna Carta seems to enjoy greater prestige in the US of A. The monument at Runnymede, England was erected by the American Bar Association to commemorate the Carta in 1957, and is often quoted in politcal debates and judicial opinions. A fed judge cited it the Paula Jones case against President Clinton for sexual harrassment.
'It is contrary to our form of government , which asserts as did the English in the Magna Carta and the Petition of Right, that even the sovereign is subject to God and the law.'

regards
[ November 27, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Al Newman
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Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
No, HS. Elected Judges. Remember the chappie in Alabama who was recently defracked for putting a sculpture of the Ten Commandments in the coutroom? He was an elected judge....
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Ok. As opposed to Independent Federal Judges.

Some interesting links on Elected Judges Elected Judges
Of particular note :
Elected judges and the Death Penalty in Texas : Why Full Habaes Corpus Review by Independent Federal Judges is indispensible to protecting Constitutional Rights.
Elected judges tend to favour people who votd them into office.
Younger Elected judges are more disciplined.
regards
Jason Menard
Sheriff

Joined: Nov 09, 2000
Posts: 6450
Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
I don't actually feel morally or intellectually superior

Originally posted by Richard Hawkes:
No, in your humble opinion its rabid anti-Americanism gone mad.

Right... Thanks for telling me what my opinon is. I'm grateful to have one of your calibur around to dictate my thoughts and opinions for me.
And again you equate not going to war with "no concern for the Iraqi people", something we'll never agree on.
Where were the protests against Saddam then? Where were the protests urging him not to brutalize his people? Do you take comfort in the fact that these protests give aid, comfort, and encouragement to him and the people that are fighting against the majority of Iraqi people and the coalition forces (including UK forces)? You would think these morally outraged protesters would take responsibility for their own actions.
The killing/mutilation of thousands of people,
The vast majority of them members of the Iraqi military. Of course not deposing Saddam sooner had resulted in the killing/mutilation of over a million people.
anger throughout the Muslim world.
Honestly, I couldn't care less. Where was their outrage when the Iraqi people were suffering under Saddam? Where was their outrage at the suffering caused by the Taliban regime? Where's their outrage at the wanton murder of Israeli civilians? I'm not really concerned with people who are outraged because a dictator the likes of a Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot is deposed.
but maybe also, disregard of international law
The results of our actions are sanctioned by the UN, so they must be legal. Any question of legality has been rendered irrelevant by subsequent UNSC resolutions.
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Frank: I think it's anti-American to assume that Bush _lied_ about weapons of mass destruction when the evidence is that Saddam Hussein deliberately tried to fool people into thinking he had them or was developing them (in order to enhance his power and prestige in the Arab world).
However, Saddam Hussein failed to fool UN inspectors who did not find anything and said just so. Why he succeeded in fooling Bush administration - this is an interesting question... We have the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence working on its report, so we may have the answer soon.
So far we have this:
The committee staff was surprised by the amount of circumstantial evidence and single-source or disputed information used to write key intelligence documents -- in particular the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate -- summarizing Iraq's capabilities and intentions, according to Republican and Democratic sources.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/984399.asp

I personally do not think that Bush lied; he looks like a man who truly believes in... well, what he knows is true.
[ November 27, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

Uncontrolled vocabularies
"I try my best to make *all* my posts nice, even when I feel upset" -- Philippe Maquet
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
I personally do not think that Bush lied; he looks like a man who truly believes in... well, what he knows is true.
And he certainly seems willing to stand by his soldiers. Not a lot of heads of state would have flown to the occupied zone to spend a holiday with the troops. Publicity stunt? Sure. But one hell of a ballsy one. It shows he has faith in his security, his armed forces and his intelligence.
Joe
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
I agree that it was a damn good thing to do.
See, Joe - I agree with you! I agree with you!
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
The march consisted of the usual suspects, plus the odd photogenic principled granny for the cameras. The silent majority was not heard, as usual.


"....bigmouth strikes again, and I've got no right to take my place with the human race...."<p>SCJP 1.4
Steven Broadbent
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 400
As far as Tony Martin is concerned if anyone actually remembers the trial, the jury though very long and very hard before bringing in their verdict.

His image as a socially withdrawn saddo didn't help him I'm sure.
But seems the case has been resolved correctly in the end. The scumball who robbed Tony Martin's farm and got his 16 year old "friend" killed is now back behind bars, and I guess it won't be for the first time.
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
As far as Tony Martin is concerned if anyone actually remembers the trial, the jury though very long and very hard before bringing in their verdict.
His image as a socially withdrawn saddo didn't help him I'm sure.
But seems the case has been resolved correctly in the end. The scumball who robbed Tony Martin's farm and got his 16 year old "friend" killed is now back behind bars, and I guess it won't be for the first time.

There is a tradition called 'Jury Nullification' in the US which doesn't seem to have arisen over here. If a member or members of a jury believe that a major injustice is going to be done to a defendant they will sometimes vote to acquit in the face of overwhelming evidence of guilt. The first OJ Simpson case is the most notorious example of this practice.
The case has not been resolved 'correctly' in my view. Arguably Martin should have been convicted and spent some time in jail despite the mitigating factors. Perhaps 6 months or a year. Four years looks like vengeance to me in this case. Not justice.
The treatment of Fagin has little to do with Martin, but note that he's been in and out (on parole) three times. He served a minimal sentence for the burglary and another one for heroin dealing. Out (on parole) both times BEFORE Martin was let out at all.
Now he's back in and you say justice has been done. How so?
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
I agree that it was a damn good thing to do.
See, Joe - I agree with you! I agree with you!

What a nice Thanksgiving present - thanks, Map!
And we agree on lots of things, it's just that the areas where we disagree are very important to both of us, so we discuss them alot. And no matter what, it's usually very civil, and never anywhere near the personal viciousness I've been getting in the jobs discussion.
Joe
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I personally do not think that Bush lied; he looks like a man who truly believes in... well, what he knows is true.
And he certainly seems willing to stand by his soldiers. Not a lot of heads of state would have flown to the occupied zone to spend a holiday with the troops. Publicity stunt? Sure. But one hell of a ballsy one. It shows he has faith in his security, his armed forces and his intelligence.

More than that, Joe. I think it shows that Bush doesn't fear his fate. As in Montrose' Toast:
"He fears his fate too much, or his deserts are small, Who dares not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all."
So WHAT if he loses in 2004?!!! Ballsy is the word......
[ November 28, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]
Frank Silbermann
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Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
R K Singh : "But IMHO they (Center for Economic and Social Rights) are as much American as you are."
That is where we disagree. Americanism is not based on soil or race; it is based on an idea that was articulated in writings such as _The Federalist Papers_ and their anti-federalist critics. That political ideal is fundamentally and profoundly incompatible with Marxism. The group you quote is a Marxist organization; hence, they are inherently unAmerican (or, anti-Americanism).
To say that they are pro-American, but merely critics of certain policies, is as silly as arguing that a Russion could condemn collective economics without being anti-Soviet.
And aside from politics, it seemed to me that most European critics insisted that America was going to invade Iraq not for the purposes of fighting terrorism (terrorist Abu Nidal lived unmolested in Iraq for over 20 years) or in response to the pleading of tens of thousands of Iraqi refugees, but merely as a pretext for stealing their oil. To believe that we would do such a thing in this day and age is the very epitome of anti-Americanism.
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
Angela Poynton:
They are taking the country back a hundred years where a Higher Education was only available to those who could afford it. It's stupid, wrong and rubbish and if Students want to march to protest, good for them!
Hey, I'm all in favor of charity for the poor, and scholarships for especially deserving students of lower backgrounds. But I do think there's something unseemly about charity recipients condemning their benefactors for not being generous enough. Besides, there's always the library -- the "poor man's university" according to philanthropist Andrew Carnegie.
Besides, your parents might have been better able to support your studies if they weren't so heavily taxed.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Ok, let us at the oil then, seeing as Europeans openly admit to lusting after the oil and don't have such a moral high ground. All the protesting was us protecting ourselves from our selves. :roll:
Help us bring taxes down so that we can afford to better educate our children.
To be American by definitions in this thread makes it seem so easy to talk oneself into a straight jacket.
regards
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
So WHAT if he loses in 2004?!!! Ballsy is the word......
Sexists!
(Just kidding! )
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
A reason I gave why Bush is hated, suggesting anti-Americanism:
(3) He is proud, not ashamed, to be an American. For example, he doesn't crawl and beg the forgiveness of African tyrants for the fact that Americans 150 years ago bought some of their slaves.

Joe King replied:
Can you name a western leader who does beg and crawl before African tyrants? Not sure why you bought that up really.

Why yes, I can. Our previous president, Bill Clinton (who was ever so much more popular among Europeans than Bush) did just that. (He was trying to pander to American blacks when he did that.) Yes, by today's standards buying enslaved war-captives is unacceptable. That doesn't mean we owe an apology to the people who sold them to us (or who sold them to the Arab slavemongers, who sold them to us).

me:
(Bush) feels open disdain for both the old Left of the 1930s and the New Left of the 1960s -- properly equating them to the fascists and Nazi-sympathizers of those eras.

(and therefore Bush is hated by European Marxists, who cannot be anything but anti-American, given America's historical commitment to the containment of communism.)
Joe King replied:
Fascism and Nazisism have appsolutely nothing to do with left wing policies. Left wing policies are about economic structure, where as naziism and fascism are about nationalist policies - these are totally different areas.

On the contrary, Hitler's party was the National Socialist Workers Party . Mussalini was a socialist who created the fascist party not as a rejection of socialism, but as a refinement. The main difference between Mussalini and the other Italian socialists was that he remained an Italian patriot rather than an internationalist. Also, Hitler and Mussalini advocated mixed economies as do the more pragmatic Leftists today.
Of course, there have also been quite nationalist Marxist governments, such as the Chinese, who to this day demand unification with Taiwan for no apparent reason other than Chinese nationalism. Nationalism (Arab nationalism) was also a feature of France's ally, Saddam's "socialist" Baath Party. Cries of "Death to the Jews!" and the promotion of anti-Jewish hatred (e.g. TV programs claiming that Jews murder nonJews to drink their blood) is also common among the allies of Europe's anti-Israel Left.


Joe King:
In fact, nazisism and fascism are far more associated with the right wing then the left wing.

On the contrary, America's "Right Wing" merely seeks to defend the gains of the American Revolution of 1776 against neo-feudal socialism. It promotes _decentralized_ decision-making -- both in economic policy and in crime control (eg. individual self-defense). That's about as _un_fascist (the fasciis being a Roman symbol of collective action) as you can get.

me:
(Bush receives contempt in Europe because he) is sincerely religious

Joe King replied:
I fail to see why being religious is automatically a good thing. In fact, an overly religious leader can be quite worrying.

Perhaps so, but in this sense Bush epitomizes one way in which a great many Americans differ from Europeans. You don't have to like it; but if it causes you to feel contempt for Bush, I cannot but assume it would cause you to feel contempt for the tens of millions of Americans who are like him.

me:
(Bush) has no moral qualms about killing murderers and people who threaten murder.

Joe King:
I agree (murderers) need a harsh punishment, but capital punishment is very flawed in that it doesnt allow for future retrial if more evidence comes to light.

I admit that flaw, but I could point to worse flaws in the alternative, but I don't want to go off on a tangent. Let me just say that many Europeans go much further than this, even to the point of calling America's death penalty _barbaric_. Most Americans support the death penalty, so if Europeans hate Bush for allowing it then I can only assume that they also hate most Americans. I also detect an anti-American bias in that Europeans never demonstrated against the use of the death penalty by the Soviet Union or by various third-world allies of the Left.

Joe King:
The fact that a lot of Americans think that carrying a lethal weopan is a good thing is very confusing. There is surely a correlation between the high acceptance of guns in America and the high level of gun crime there.

The correlation disappears when you look at other contributing factors.
Handgun sales reached unprecedented rates in 1993-1994 by people fearing the imposition of pre-purchase background checks. Sales of high-capacity semi-automatic pistols and magazines were huge in 1994 in reaction to the ban on sales of new high-capacity magazines imposed later that year. Sales of very small handguns were extremely high throughout the 1990s as one state after another passed laws enabling private citizens with clean records and modest training to acquire permits to carry loaded concealed handguns in public for use against robbers, rapists, carjackers and the like.
Yet, our (admittedly atrociously high) "gun crime" rate showed a very strong decline during that period. It has always been low, however, compared with many places with extremely restrictive gun laws (e.g. Mexico and Jamaica). And if you consider murder regardless of weapon, it becomes apparent that the murder rate among American Jews is no higher than among European Jews; the murder rate among Japanese Americans is lower than among Japanese in Japan. (In fact, if you treat suicide as self-murder, then the overall murder rate in Japan dwarfs ours.) Americans from Mexico have double the murder rate of the national average, but that's still significantly lower than the murder rate among Mexicans in Mexico. The murder rate in Jamaica is so high that our rate is lower even if you only consider Jamaican murders committed by policemen!
If you say that we should only be compared to industrialized countries, I would point to the much higher murder rate in the Soviet Union while it was still communist, stable and industrialized. I would also suggest that illiterate unemployed poor people in one country might not be so very different from their counterparts in poorer countries. (The fact, their proximity to great wealth and luxury in this country might only serve to make them angrier.)
Before 1920 England had no laws whatsoever to discourage a private citizen from buying a pocket pistol, loading it up, and going on his way, and yet the gun crime rate back then was misiscule compared to today.
No, careful study demonstrates that restricting guns is a very poor approach to controlling violent crime, and people who advocate it are engaging in wishful thinking. I suspect that many gun control advocates know that allowing people to shoot robbers and rapists reduces crime; they simply consider the practice to be barbaric. (And hence they consider Bush and most Americans to be barbaric. Is it not antiAmerican to think that of us?)
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
The Iraq war may be considered a peaceful revolution by tomorrow's standards.Who knows ?
Bush may even gain some of JFKs stature in the world seeing that the world has a weakness for super technology. If he is seen to be behind the world
projects.
"Those who make peaceful revolutions impossible will make violent revolutions inevitable" - John F. Kennedy.
There are other revolutions seeking a shift from social activism (yes, even under the morass that is capitalism) to environmentalism. The E8 - United States ,Japan, Germany form the three industrialised countries , China, India, likely to become industrial giants and major polluters of the future, Brazil and Indonesia contain most of the rainforests and much biological resources to Russia which defies environmental description.
So where does Blair stand amongst these. Or the rest of Europe ?
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Joe: And no matter what, it's usually very civil, and never anywhere near the personal viciousness I've been getting in the jobs discussion.
Yeah, you know how to get yourself in trouble, Joe.
Actually, I think the beating you got there was well-deserved.
You were bad, admit it.
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
You were bad, admit it.
This isn't a joking matter, Map. You don't understand the issues. People I know, good people who have worked hard for their entire lives are now unable to find work because they are being displaced by foreign nationals being paid substandard wages. People are leaving the industry not because they aren't getting top wages, but because they cannot afford to feed their families or pay their mortgages. These are not extravagant people, but middle class working folks with kids and a house.
It's an ugly thing, and unless you take the time to really analyze it, you won't understand. And if you want to know more, feel free to post on that thread. The discussion doesn't belong here. But no, I was not bad. If anything, I was too polite.
Joe
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Joe!
I do understand the issues, believe me. But if we will not (occasionally) laugh at our plight, we all will go crazy! This doesn't mean we should only laugh, but hey, this is Meaningless Drivel!
I was just teasing you, but apparently caught you in the wrong mood to be teased. Sorry about that...
Joe Pluta
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Map, I love teasing, and I know I am a great target for it .
But this issue is so terribly, terribly important that I cannot laugh about it. Friends with 20 years or more experience are having to work at near minimum wage just to try to make ends meet. Honest hardworking people who purchased homes based on a reasonable expectation of income are now losing their houses or declaring bankruptcy. Marriages are being strained, college funds spent, futures destroyed, all because of corporate greed and Congressional collusion.
So, tease me on anything else, but not this particular issue, thanks!
Joe
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Ha! And you called me a pessimist!
But this question, what can we laugh at and what not, will make a good separate thread. Tomorrow. Maybe. Tomorrow will be the 4th day my in-laws are visiting us and frankly, I feel exhausted. They are my favorite Americans, though.
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

And the judge would then let the thug out, either directly or on appeal. No?
Elected judges, mebbe? Another questionable Yankee innovation.
[ November 27, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

What about the victimisations by ruthless malpractice lawyers of innocent hard working people who have their living destroyed ? That practice is rampant in the US. In fact, I don't associate malpractice with any other country more. It's a practise (mal) that is catching on everywhere, particularly in the field of medecine.
[ November 28, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Map, I'm sorry, but WTF does this have to do with pessimism, and how does the subject always return to you?
I've displayed neither optimism nor pessimism about this topic. My primary emotion on the entire issue is anger. I am in fact guardedly optimistic, as the saying goes, that we may be able to make some progress, and that the economy is turning around.
But I feel the issue is still too important to make fun of, and I would hope you'd respect my wishes on the matter. If you feel a burning need to probe yet another intricate crevasse of the human psyche, please don't use me as an example.
Joe
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Aides prodded Bush into visiting Iraq
Sen. Hilary Clinton was also in Iraq.
"So far, at least, she�s not criticizing Bush. She�s not saying the war was unjustified or a plot hatched in Texas. She�s not dropping hints about how the U.S. could cut-and-run and make it look like an endorsement of the U.N. or of principled multilateralism.
Instead, she�s praising the troops. She�s praising the humanitarian effort. She�s praising Coalition efforts to assist an Iraqi �transition toward democracy.�
CPT Roger Maynulet e-mails Joe Blog:
"I just wanted to drop you guys a note from here in downtown Baghdad where I interact with the local population on a daily basis. The President's visit was even more of a morale boost to the Iraqis than it was to the troops. When the President of the U.S.A. visits a place like this, it's like the most popular kid in school coming to a party hosted by the A.V. club. The Iraqis feel validated and Al Jazeera looked foolish in the eyes of the Iraqis trying to find a negative spin to the story.
George Bush's visit has made my job easier in showing that we are committed to helping this country. I had Iraqis wishing me "Happy Thanksgiving" all day today (they only learned of the holiday by finding out the reason why Bush came to visit us).
Just wanted to give you the perspective from the street here in Baghdad."
[ November 28, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
One of the news channels aired a recently-released clip of
Aung San Suu Kyi's last protest rally
before she was put under house arrest. A large group of supporters of the National League for Democracy gethered.
The protest also attracted a number of anti-democracy groups in the area.
After a while the anti-democracy groups put down their placards and joined the chanting pro-democracy. Late arrivals of the anti-group also joined them.
Funny to watch but true. See the very first post in this thread.
Al Newman
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 716
Originally posted by HS Thomas:

What about the victimisations by ruthless malpractice lawyers of innocent hard working people who have their living destroyed ? That practice is rampant in the US. In fact, I don't associate malpractice with any other country more. It's a practise (mal) that is catching on everywhere, particularly in the field of medecine.

I'm not certain what this is supposed to mean in the context of elected DA's, Judges, and county sheriffs, HS. Perhaps a general observation that everything Yank is not perfect?
Granted. Hell, the election of all the above isn't perfect, not by a long shot. Electing head police and judges introduces distortions into the system. Of course it does, and not all the distortions are positive ones. I suspect that if the number of malpractice lawyers in the US were determined by popular referendum there would be many fewer of them.
There seems to be a remarkable blindness in the UK to the fact that an appointive system also has it's distortions. Major ones, in my view. Electing judges and head policemen would make them a lot more aware of and responsive to public opinion. For good or ill....
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

I'm not certain what this is supposed to mean in the context of elected DA's, Judges, and county sheriffs, HS. Perhaps a general observation that everything Yank is not perfect?
A few glaring imperfections.

There seems to be a remarkable blindness in the UK to the fact that an appointive system also has it's distortions. Major ones, in my view. Electing judges and head policemen would make them a lot more aware of and responsive to public opinion. For good or ill....

Our appointed judges are supposed to be surrounded by dusty tomes pondering judicial matters, not having to deal with being in the public glare. Surely close proximity to the public leads to greater distortions.
Lawyers now, after estate agents, must be the most hated profession. One tries really hard not to ever require their services with a bit of luck.
The Law Commission for England and Wales act as a regulating and reforming body.
"We publish provisional proposals for consultation and comment, and in the light of the responses we receive we lay our final recommendations before Parliament.
The role of the Law Commission contributes to the aim of the Department for Constitutional Affairs to build fair, effective and accessible justice services and to modernise the law and constitution.
The Chairman and four other Commissioners are appointed by the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs and Lord Chancellor (LCA 1965, s 1(1))"
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 10065
Joe: Map, I'm sorry, but WTF does this have to do with pessimism, and how does the subject always return to you?
How - you returned it, Joe! I was talking about you!
But Ok, no more teasing. :-| You said "No", and so be it. I need to work on my theoretically-investigative post about jokes now...
Joe Pluta
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Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1376
Thanks, Map!
As to your issue on joking, you might want to start with the following:
"Humor is the only test of gravity, and gravity of humor; for a subject which will not bear raillery is suspicious, and a jest which will not bear serious examination is false wit."
- Aristotle
Joe
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
posted by Alfred Neumann :
Electing judges and head policemen would make them a lot more aware of and responsive to public opinion. For good or ill....

It seems to me that knowing who decides someones fate leaves a lot of room for pre-meditation on the part of the public. Ultimately, we need a process that protects the public. The US is huge ; there are so many states, therefore electing lower ranked judges seems a good idea for the US. At elections the UK votes for local party representatives .... but that's about it I think.
Some people prefer to keep it simple.
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
We may have an appointed House Of Lords the argument being that this will be more representational than a House Of hereditaries. The hereditaries did quite a lot of good.Ordinary people who made significant contributions to society were elected to the House but not by public vote (can be argued to be appointees).This group includes a lot of immigrants. Can the general public really appreciate the bigger picture ?
The police are trying to be more accountable locally by letting the locals have a say in how they want to be policed. MPs used to and continue to take on this role.
Children of assylum seekers are taken into care in order to get the parents to leave. Worthy of a protest march, IMHO. Also reminiscient of a similar episode in the past where the nations poor childen were taken into care with disastrous results.
[ November 30, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Protest Marches