Two Laptop Bag*
The moose likes Features new in Java 7 and the fly likes  Java seems like a technology no one wants to use Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login


Win a copy of Murach's Java Servlets and JSP this week in the Servlets forum!
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Java » Features new in Java 7
Bookmark " Java seems like a technology no one wants to use" Watch " Java seems like a technology no one wants to use" New topic
Author

Java seems like a technology no one wants to use

Mich Robinson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 28, 2009
Posts: 250
    
    1
If you look at the list of "hello world!" programs written in different languages then it soon becomes apparent what the issue is with Java. There are 3 versions of the program supplied for Java. Even the simplest is full of spurious keywords which just bloat the final program - the fortran program is certainly easier to understand than Java and even SQL (a database query language) can get away with just select "Hello World!". We can talk about the advantages of having a program you can run directly from the web but if they did have an applet or a webstart link then you'd still have the issue of whether every user can run Java, whether they have the right version of Java or whether they're happy to install Java. If they can run the program then they'll be bombarded with warnings asking them if they really want to run a Java program on their PC - running an exe produces far fewer warnings. Also keep in mind the programmer would normally need to produce different code depending on whether his Java program is an application, an applet or webstart.

I personally don't mind Java and I think it runs very quickly but the idea of a write once, run anywhere programming language just hasn't materialized.


Arcade : Alien Swarm
Board : Chess - Checkers - Connect 4 - Othello
Philip Perry
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 18, 2014
Posts: 9

john price wrote:You say it's mostly server side which strengthens my point - people don't use Java for client programs. If I am misunderstanding, please correct me. Sorry to start a debate on your thread Wouter Oet. I am naive on this topic as you see here.

EDIT : I do agree with your points on the last post.


I used to work for the N.Y. State Government, and my biggest project was a 56,000 line of code Java desktop program which used Swing and an embedded Apache Derby database. I used the Nimbus look and feel, it actually looked *better* than regular Windows programs. And it was very fast; the JRE precompiles classes these days, benchmarks put Java almost as fast as C++ (faster for some things).

Client-side Java does NOT mean Applets. Applets are dead, they're mostly long gone. They only survive now as ghosts, over in Europe where banks (for some ungodly reason) insist on using them for user logins, or so I've heard. I like to picture Hans from Die Hard leaning over some poor German programmer, barking "That is not an Applet! Why are you not using Applets? I'll send you another copy of the memo!" Heh heh heh...

Client side Java programs are all over the place, you'd be surprised how many things are written in Java. And really, if you're using NetBeans, client-side development is really, really smooth, on a par with Visual Studio in most cases.

My only gripe is with J2EE. They made that way too complicated. I like the new approach with POJOs, and I'm learning Spring and Hibernate. Very nice!


A government project was completed in 2 years. Instead of going to beta, it "went to committee" and took 4 extra years to complete.
Horrors! they said! Next time, we'd better send it to committee right from the beginning! (facepalm)
Philip Perry
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 18, 2014
Posts: 9

Mich Robinson wrote:If you look at the list of "hello world!" programs written in different languages then it soon becomes apparent what the issue is with Java. There are 3 versions of the program supplied for Java. Even the simplest is full of spurious keywords which just bloat the final program - the fortran program is certainly easier to understand than Java and even SQL (a database query language) can get away with just select "Hello World!". We can talk about the advantages of having a program you can run directly from the web but if they did have an applet or a webstart link then you'd still have the issue of whether every user can run Java, whether they have the right version of Java or whether they're happy to install Java. If they can run the program then they'll be bombarded with warnings asking them if they really want to run a Java program on their PC - running an exe produces far fewer warnings. Also keep in mind the programmer would normally need to produce different code depending on whether his Java program is an application, an applet or webstart.


I don't think it's fair to judge a language by how easy it is to write a trivial "Hello, World" program. I think the measure of a language is how easy it is to write large, extensible, object oriented enterprise systems. So, how good is Fortran (your example) at that? Why aren't banks and large corporations still using it? Why isn't *anyone* using it outside of engineering departments? Java is popular because it's the best tool for enterprise software development. You should judge it in the proper context, not in a context that serves only to unfairly disadvantage it.

Put another way, Java is a bulldozer with many attachments; you don't criticize it because it can't be used for putting a flower in a pot. You get out and start digging foundations, drilling wells, etc. If you want to put a flower in a pot, you use one of those itty bitty gardening shovels. You know?

Mich Robinson wrote:I personally don't mind Java and I think it runs very quickly but the idea of a write once, run anywhere programming language just hasn't materialized.


Oh, that's not true. The software I was writing for the state ran on Windows, Mac OS/X, and Linux. I know this because I tried it! Looked the same everywhere, too, except on the Mac the fonts were slightly different.

One thing that was an issue was installers. Java programs are generally happy just living in a single directory, and all you have to do is zip it up and offer it for download. But managers get panicky just thinking about that... If it doesn't have an installer, it's no good! But they won't give you any money to buy an installation system, so you have to use whatever you can find. I used Inno Software for Windows, and on Macs I had to hand-build a package for my programs. It's easy once you've got a template put together, but dang. Those guys at Apple always have to do things the fancy way!

Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 41060
    
  43
Philip Perry wrote:Client side Java programs are all over the place, you'd be surprised how many things are written in Java.

Probably mostly internal apps that would not normally be seen by the general public, kind of how Motif was used in the heydays days of Unix.


Ping & DNS - my free Android networking tools app
Philip Perry
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 18, 2014
Posts: 9

Ulf Dittmer wrote:
Philip Perry wrote:Client side Java programs are all over the place, you'd be surprised how many things are written in Java.

Probably mostly internal apps that would not normally be seen by the general public, kind of how Motif was used in the heydays days of Unix.


Here's a list of open source programs written in Java:
http://java-source.net/

Here's a search on Wikipedia with some surprising results you might like:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=software+written+in+Java&title=Special%3ASearch

People are using those, aren't they?
Philip Perry
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 18, 2014
Posts: 9

You want my honest opinion of why so many young guys are complaining about Java and singing the praises of things like Ruby and Python? Here it is:

Java is a really, really BIG language. Oh, the core language is very small, and easy to learn, but knowing the core language is just the beginning. You've seen the want ads for Java programmers... A Java programmer is expected to know a whole lot of stuff. Core Java, NetBeans and/or Eclipse, how to write and use servlets, JSPs, probably taglibs, you're expected to know at least one or two frameworks, and when you get to your technical interview if you don't at least know a few design patterns and how to write a sort routine on demand; the alpha geek running the interview will give you the stink-eye. Also, Java's used in a lot of companies, and they tend to be demanding about experience. They want four years of this, four years of that... It's hard to break into this particular career.

Worse, most companies don't want to train anybody; they expect you to know everything on day 1 these days. How's a college kid going to get his foot in the door? He's got no experience, nothing really to put on his resume to get it past the H.R. drone scanning the resume pile on autopilot... I've been doing Java for seven years, and I feel locked out because I've always written my own JDBC at work and now I find out everyone's using Hibernate and employers want you to have four years' experience in it. D'oh! Why is it always "four years"? Seriously.

Anyway, all these young guys are looking up at this big mountain, this big, freaky mountain with sharp crags sticking out and vultures circling around it, and maybe even a yeti looking down at them and licking its lips. Way up at the top, there's a castle, and it looks great, but dang. All the way up there? Past the yeti?

Then they look over to their left, and there's this grassy little hill with a little cobblestone path on it leading up to a simple little house. They look at the castle; they look at the house. They look at one, then the other, then back again. Finally they say "Nope! Nuh-uh. I'm going to go climb that little hill over there and call it a day." So instead of trying to learn how to do large-scale enterprise development, they settle for the scripting languages and do web pages. It's a living, and they're happy, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But what's *really* going on is they're taking the easy path instead of the hard one, and telling everyone the easy path is soooooo much better. They weren't scared of the yeti, no way, they just like cottages.
Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 41060
    
  43
Philip Perry wrote:Here's a search on Wikipedia with some surprising results you might like:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=software+written+in+Java&title=Special%3ASearch

People are using those, aren't they?

I'm not sure what your point is. I was talking about desktop Java, and I stand by my opinion that most Java desktop apps are internal apps. IDEs aside, I bet it's a small minority of people that could name (or have used) a single desktop app written in Java.
Philip Perry
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 18, 2014
Posts: 9

Ulf Dittmer wrote:
Philip Perry wrote:Here's a search on Wikipedia with some surprising results you might like:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=software+written+in+Java&title=Special%3ASearch

People are using those, aren't they?

I'm not sure what your point is. I was talking about desktop Java, and I stand by my opinion that most Java desktop apps are internal apps. IDEs aside, I bet it's a small minority of people that could name (or have used) a single desktop app written in Java.


I bet it's a small minority of people who could name ANY programming language. As for the list, what about the medical imaging applications? The UML editors? The financial applications? The CRM and ERP apps? There are client-side apps involved in all of those.

I'm not saying the server-side isn't king. Obviously it is. But there's still a lot of client side going on.
Mich Robinson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 28, 2009
Posts: 250
    
    1
Philip Perry wrote:I don't think it's fair to judge a language by how easy it is to write a trivial "Hello, World" program. I think the measure of a language is how easy it is to write large, extensible, object oriented enterprise systems. So, how good is Fortran (your example) at that? Why aren't banks and large corporations still using it? Why isn't *anyone* using it outside of engineering departments? Java is popular because it's the best tool for enterprise software development. You should judge it in the proper context, not in a context that serves only to unfairly disadvantage it.

Put another way, Java is a bulldozer with many attachments; you don't criticize it because it can't be used for putting a flower in a pot. You get out and start digging foundations, drilling wells, etc. If you want to put a flower in a pot, you use one of those itty bitty gardening shovels. You know?
Why should we judge languages by how easy it is to write large, extensible, object oriented enterprise systems? That's like saying Lisp is best because it's handles lists so well or Forth because it handles RPN better than other languages. We judge a language by how easy it is to solve our problems with it. "Hello world" is simply the most basic program you can have and yet it takes 5 lines of code! Even the line that actually does the printing is complicated by requiring "System.out." and then the slightly confusing "println" command. I don't program in Fortran (actually I don't think anybody does these days) and I don't really program at work any more however I was asked to include a Java element into an automated system of financial feeds we were producing a few years back. I couldn't work out why the guy was taking so long to implement his solution. I listened to his explanation about OO approaches and about finding the right libraries etc but after a while I grew tired just asked him to watch while I wrote a 10 line Unix shell program that did everything that was required - it took me less than 20 minutes. After 3 months of development he produced his "extensible OO" solution and we verified it by making sure it produced exactly the same output as my little script (which I'd kept). Go figure.

Philip Perry wrote:
Mich Robinson wrote:I personally don't mind Java and I think it runs very quickly but the idea of a write once, run anywhere programming language just hasn't materialized.


Oh, that's not true. The software I was writing for the state ran on Windows, Mac OS/X, and Linux. I know this because I tried it! Looked the same everywhere, too, except on the Mac the fonts were slightly different.
But you haven't really changed anything there, you're just running the same app with a variety of JRE's. I suggest you try altering your program to use webstart or applets and then comment. I tried turning my applets into webstart applications but hit a brick wall when simply trying save state - surely I can't be the 1st person who's wanted to save the user's state on their own PC - I even asked on here but ended up having to save the user's state back on the server. It also turns out you can't even copy and paste into applet & webstart windows with the latest version of Java because of yet another security scare. I wrote a chess program last year that was moderately popular for a while but even that's recently stopped working because of some Java certificate issue. I also have a cute little connect 4 applet that doesn't go outside the sandbox but that's also stopped working with the release of Java 7. I also have a Java arcade game that's kind of fun but sadly my user base are now worried about having Java on their computers inside their arcade cabinets - this means I'm now going to have to distribute it as an exe. I'll also mention that turning a jar into an exe is also a pain. All of these things are issues I don't want when I pick a language.
Campbell Ritchie
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 37913
    
  22
Mich Robinson wrote: . . . I don't program in Fortran (actually I don't think anybody does these days) . . .
FORTRAN is no 28 in the TIOBE index for January 2014, so there might be 100× more people programming it than there were 50 years ago.
Martin Vajsar
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 22, 2010
Posts: 3606
    
  60

Mich Robinson wrote:Why should we judge languages by how easy it is to write large, extensible, object oriented enterprise systems? That's like saying Lisp is best because it's handles lists so well or Forth because it handles RPN better than other languages. We judge a language by how easy it is to solve our problems with it. "Hello world" is simply the most basic program you can have and yet it takes 5 lines of code!

I still think the former is more representative than the latter. I've spend most of my career doing the former. I haven't written "Hello, world!" application in Java since my first day with the language.

I'm not sure one example of a bad programmer proves anything. There might be good reasons to abandon cars and start cycling instead, but an incompetent motor mechanic isn't one of them.

That said, Java isn't a good language for small tools and system utilities. But if there was one single universal language suitable for any task, we wouldn't use any other, would we?

I tried turning my applets into webstart applications but hit a brick wall when simply trying save state - surely I can't be the 1st person who's wanted to save the user's state on their own PC - I even asked on here but ended up having to save the user's state back on the server.

This topic would belongs to a different forum actually, but didn't anybody advise you to sign your application?
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4646
    
    5

Mich Robinson wrote: I don't program in Fortran (actually I don't think anybody does these days)


This statement, which is factually wrong, and indicative of very limited exposure to the industry, questions whether any of your arguments have validity. Fortran was designed (back in the 1950s) to address engineering and scientific problem spaces. Which it does. The language has evolved over 60 years, it doesn't look today like your grandfather's Fortran.

I have many criticisms of how Java has evolved, I've posted them many times in this and other programming oriented sites. But the topic here is not "Java is less than ideal", rather the subject line is "no one wants to use".

Your arguments don't address this.
Mich Robinson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 28, 2009
Posts: 250
    
    1
Pat Farrell wrote:
Mich Robinson wrote: I don't program in Fortran (actually I don't think anybody does these days)
This statement, which is factually wrong, and indicative of very limited exposure to the industry, questions whether any of your arguments have validity.
You all make a number of fair points but I'm pretty sure I'm "factually right" in the above - I certainly don't program in Fortran and I definitely didn't believe that people did still program in Fortran. The report linked to mentioned that it has 0.4% "market share" so I guess I don't need to hang my head in shame just yet for not having used it. I assume it's mostly used in engineering and science and, of course, there's a fair few programmers out there that work outside these 2 industries. I should state I have no objection to Fortran and only mentioned it because it's "hello world" program was so much clearer than the Java equivalent.
Philip Perry
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 18, 2014
Posts: 9

Mich Robinson wrote:Why should we judge languages by how easy it is to write large, extensible, object oriented enterprise systems?


Because that's what professional programmers generally use a language like Java for? You rate a tool by how well it does what it was designed to do. For example, a monkey wrench is really, really great for tightening and loosening iron pipes. Not so good for brushing your teeth.

Mich Robinson wrote:That's like saying Lisp is best because it's handles lists so well or Forth because it handles RPN better than other languages.


Precisely. In a list context, Lisp may very well be the best. If you're really hung up on RPN, by all means use Forth. If you're doing enterprise software development, use Java.

Mich Robinson wrote:We judge a language by how easy it is to solve our problems with it.


Yes, but only within the context of the set of problems we're solving. You don't want to be the guy with a hammer, who thinks everything he sees is a nail. You want to be the guy with a hammer, a screwdriver, and maybe some pliers. For example, I use Java for desktop and server-side software development, Perl for OS scripting (because the same script will work on Windows, Linux, etc), and PhP for small web page development. Why limit yourself to one language?

Mich Robinson wrote: "Hello world" is simply the most basic program you can have and yet it takes 5 lines of code! Even the line that actually does the printing is complicated by requiring "System.out." and then the slightly confusing "println" command.


So? Who cares if it takes five lines to print "Hello World"? That's got nothing to do with anything; nobody cares. And anyway, why would it take five lines? Let me try: "System.out.println("Hello, World.\n");" Ok, that's one line... Yeah, I think someone's playing a joke on you somewhere. Also, why would you be confused by println? It looks kind of like similar statements in C and C++. And System.out is no different, really, than cout. I think you're kind of reaching here.

Mich Robinson wrote:I don't program in Fortran (actually I don't think anybody does these days)


Many thousands of engineers and scientists would tend to disagree with you on that topic. ;)

Mich Robinson wrote:and I don't really program at work any more


I already guessed that.

Mich Robinson wrote: however I was asked to include a Java element into an automated system of financial feeds we were producing a few years back. I couldn't work out why the guy was taking so long to implement his solution. I listened to his explanation about OO approaches and about finding the right libraries etc but after a while I grew tired just asked him to watch while I wrote a 10 line Unix shell program that did everything that was required - it took me less than 20 minutes. After 3 months of development he produced his "extensible OO" solution and we verified it by making sure it produced exactly the same output as my little script (which I'd kept). Go figure.


Let me translate that for my fellow Java programmers. So, some poor Java programmer was asked to write a Java element for a complicated, automated system, and he had to perform a lot of analysis so he could figure out where all the corner cases and gotchas were. It was taking a while, so a sysadmin thought he'd show the guy what's what and wrote a 10 line shell script that covered a very generic case. It wasn't worth picking a fight with the sysop, so the guy said "fine, whatever" and continued with his work. When he was done, he compared his output to the script's output with the specific set of inputs that it could handle in order to get the sysop off his back. The sysop, being oblivious, didn't understand this, and thought he'd taught the guy a lesson, but the guy got paid and the sysop felt good, so who cares?

Mich Robinson wrote:
Philip Perry wrote:
Mich Robinson wrote:I personally don't mind Java and I think it runs very quickly but the idea of a write once, run anywhere programming language just hasn't materialized.


Oh, that's not true. The software I was writing for the state ran on Windows, Mac OS/X, and Linux. I know this because I tried it! Looked the same everywhere, too, except on the Mac the fonts were slightly different.


But you haven't really changed anything there, you're just running the same app with a variety of JRE's.


Yes, that's how "Write once, run anywhere" works. A properly written app will run on any JRE.

Mich Robinson wrote:I suggest you try altering your program to use webstart or applets and then comment.


Great Scott, man, that's an awful idea. Applets are a dead, horrible technology and webstart is an abomination. Why would I stop writing perfectly robust desktop software which runs everywhere and start fiddling with applets again? And why would anyone use webstart, when all a user has to do is download a Jar file and run it with the local JRE? Applets and webstart... Sheesh! Those are about the worst way to implement an application.

Mich Robinson wrote:I tried turning my applets into webstart applications but hit a brick wall when simply trying save state - surely I can't be the 1st person who's wanted to save the user's state on their own PC - I even asked on here but ended up having to save the user's state back on the server. It also turns out you can't even copy and paste into applet & webstart windows with the latest version of Java because of yet another security scare. I wrote a chess program last year that was moderately popular for a while but even that's recently stopped working because of some Java certificate issue. I also have a cute little connect 4 applet that doesn't go outside the sandbox but that's also stopped working with the release of Java 7. I also have a Java arcade game that's kind of fun but sadly my user base are now worried about having Java on their computers inside their arcade cabinets - this means I'm now going to have to distribute it as an exe. I'll also mention that turning a jar into an exe is also a pain. All of these things are issues I don't want when I pick a language.


And THIS is why you don't use applets or web start. They're craptacular. Do me a favor. Get yourself some NetBeans, and rewrite your programs as plain old regular desktop programs. Bundle 'em up in a nice Jar file, and let people download and run them. Presto! You can save all the state you want. No more problems. Everything just works, and works everywhere. All of your problems come from your using applets and web start as delivery mechanisms. Stop doing that, and you'll like Java just fine.

Minor Update:

If, by "five lines of code" you mean:

public class HelloWorld {
public static void main(String[] args) {
System.out.println("Hello, World");
}
}

That's still not five lines of actual code, it's three, with two closing brackets. And anyway, every program has a structure a beginner has to learn, C and C++ would have more lines because you'd have to import the right header files for I/O. So, complaining about this is kind of silly, isn't it?

Mich Robinson
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 28, 2009
Posts: 250
    
    1
I have no idea what a sysop is I'm afraid, I'm on the dev PM side.
I was going to argue the points but I don't think it will be fruitful.
I think I'll just let you live happily in your world and I'll live in mine.
Have a good day.
Campbell Ritchie
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 37913
    
  22
There ain't no such thing as sysop; it is a lazy abbreviation for System.out.print or System.out.println.
Campbell Ritchie
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 37913
    
  22
I suspect that in that context sysop was a misspelling of sysadmin.
Martin Vajsar
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 22, 2010
Posts: 3606
    
  60

Campbell Ritchie wrote:I suspect that in that context sysop was a misspelling of sysadmin.

Not a misspelling - passed the "Wikipedia test": sysop. Though that article didn't help me much to get a better understanding of the difference between the two roles.
Philip Perry
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 18, 2014
Posts: 9

Martin Vajsar wrote:
Campbell Ritchie wrote:I suspect that in that context sysop was a misspelling of sysadmin.

Not a misspelling - passed the "Wikipedia test": sysop. Though that article didn't help me much to get a better understanding of the difference between the two roles.


I'm probably showing my age here, but the terms "sysop" and "sysadmin" were once separate roles; in most modern server rooms the terms are interchangeable.

In days of old, when men were bold, and computers filled whole rooms, a sysop or "System Operator" was the guy who ran all the equipment, tending the line printer, changing tape reels, and in general making sure the computer kept working properly. He was the guy who monitored all the batch jobs at night, for example. A system administrator was the guy who controlled all the user accounts, set permissions, configured the operating system, and did all of the other high level stuff that sysops would eventually learn how to do. A sysop would eventually be promoted to a system administrator position.

Nowadays, we just use servers, and you can get away with using the terms interchangeably, although in mainframe shops they're still separate roles.

If you guys spend any time at the register.co.uk, you might notice their hilarious "BOFH" series. BOFH stands for "Bastard Operator From Hell"; essentially a system operator and admin who enjoys being a little bit sociopathic. His assistant, the PFY (Pimply Faced Youth) roughly corresponds to a system operator working for a system administrator. Check it out, it's a fun series.

When I called the other guy a sysop, this was not an insult. It was an expression of the conflict between him and the programmer he thought he was smugly teaching a lesson to. Programmers and sysops (or sysadmins) often find themselves in conflict, especially in bureaucratic organizations.

Philip Perry
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 18, 2014
Posts: 9

Mich Robinson wrote:I have no idea what a sysop is I'm afraid, I'm on the dev PM side.
I was going to argue the points but I don't think it will be fruitful.
I think I'll just let you live happily in your world and I'll live in mine.
Have a good day.


Well, if you want to abandon the conversation, that's fine, but all of my points are perfectly valid. If you could refute them, I'm sure you would.

But as a project manager, you really should change your point of view on this subject. Java is an excellent, very powerful enterprise language, and I'm certain you will find yourself managing Java programmers at some point. Judge the language on its merits: on how well it does what it was designed to do. Then, its value will be apparent to you.

Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 41060
    
  43
Philip Perry wrote:If you could refute them, I'm sure you would.

That is an unwise assumption to make. We have long held it in these forums that non-responsiveness to any particular post indicates neither assent nor dissent. As a long-time moderator, I advise you to follow that rule. (As an FYI, I had come to the same conclusion as Mich with respect to the usefulness of further debating you, I just didn't announce it publicly.)
Philip Perry
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 18, 2014
Posts: 9

Ulf Dittmer wrote:
Philip Perry wrote:If you could refute them, I'm sure you would.

That is an unwise assumption to make. We have long held it in these forums that non-responsiveness to any particular post indicates neither assent nor dissent. As a long-time moderator, I advise you to follow that rule. (As an FYI, I had come to the same conclusion as Mich with respect to the usefulness of further debating you, I just didn't announce it publicly.)


Were we debating? I thought we were discussing. As for whether it's useful to "debate" me, consider that all I've been doing is pointing out Java's usefulness in a website that is ostensibly dedicated to Java programmers discussing Java. Why, on a website dedicated to Java programming, is my position that Java is a good language, considered controversial?

I think I'm disappointed: this website isn't what I was expecting at all. If someone has no use for Java, why discuss it on a Java-related site? And if someone presents a successful defense of his primary programming language, the very language the website supposedly supports, why insult him? It is quite mysterious to me. I think this thread is a poor use of my time.

Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 41060
    
  43
I think you just provided some good examples of why people may think it pointless to discuss (or debate, or whatever you want to call it) with you.

Philip Perry wrote:If someone has no use for Java, why discuss it on a Java-related site?

Nobody argued that. If you go around pretending someone did, then it's no wonder that folks lose interest in responding.

And if someone presents a successful defense of his primary programming language

Given that it's a point nobody argued, any conclusions drawn from it are besides the point.

... why insult him?

We will not tolerate anybody getting insulted on this site; it is quite contrary to the "Be Nice" policy. Please contact me (or any other moderator) privately with the information where and how that happened.
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4646
    
    5

Philip Perry wrote: I think this thread is a poor use of my time.


I agree, you should stop reading and posting to it.
Roger Sterling
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 06, 2012
Posts: 426

Ernesto Elias-Nieland wrote:Here are just two random facts for client side Java usage:

Almost all ATM machines use Java SE clients. Also many devices that do any financial transaction, like paying with your credit card in a restaurant use some Java on their devices.

That Java is still one of the leading technologies for enterprise software doesn't have to be said. And I would think that every second dev-type IT job is in enterprise software development.



Sadly, many ATM infrastructures still use COBOL, not Java. Even the 'server' systems they connect to are mainframes not WebSphere application servers.

http://fcw.com/articles/2013/12/12/cobol-legacy.aspx

If you live in Europe, this may not be as true as it is in US.

Please correct your statement : not almost all ATMs use Java as its client interface to the banking network. Some ATMs may have subcomponents (image scanners) that use Java, but the primary technology to transact business relies on COBOL.
Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 41060
    
  43
Off topic:
Sadly, many ATM infrastructures still use COBOL, not Java. Even the 'server' systems they connect to are mainframes not WebSphere application servers.

What's more, most of the ATM frontends still are (and will be for some time) running Windows XP. It's not quite as bad as it sounds given that those machines are not easily accessible through any ports or via a network, but still.
Bill Gorder
Bartender

Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 1646
    
    7

Ulf Dittmer wrote:I stand by my opinion that most Java desktop apps are internal apps. IDEs aside, I bet it's a small minority of people that could name (or have used) a single desktop app written in Java.


I generally agree with this sentiment but there are a few exceptions one of them being squirrel-sql
http://squirrel-sql.sourceforge.net/


[How To Ask Questions][Read before you PM me]
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4646
    
    5

I use MIRO (a podcast catcher) every day, and have used it on both Linux and OSX for years. Its in Java, and its an app.
william chaple
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 08, 2013
Posts: 108
just wondering but why is it when you search top programming languages in 2014 java comes out?
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
Marshal

Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 60752
    
  65

Maybe because Java is one of the top programming languages?


[Asking smart questions] [Bear's FrontMan] [About Bear] [Books by Bear]
william chaple
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 08, 2013
Posts: 108
exactly. so whyare people saying java is a joke? my friend just graduated FIU and landed a job in usaa because of java. its all he knows.

and isn't java one of the main languages that companies look for that you understand as an entry level position so they can mold you into what the company wants?
Paul Clapham
Bartender

Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 18541
    
    8

william chaple wrote:so whyare people saying java is a joke?


Who is saying that?

(Of course there are always people willing to provide their opinion about things they know nothing about. Those opinions aren't very valuable, wouldn't you say?)
william chaple
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 08, 2013
Posts: 108
sorry let me rephrase that. meant to say why is it people think java is no longer being used or no longer in demand. from my research it is still a top 10 language along with C php mysql python javascript ruby. java making it to top 5.

do you think java is outdated? or what are companies using now?
Paul Clapham
Bartender

Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 18541
    
    8

william chaple wrote:meant to say why is it people think java is no longer being used or no longer in demand.

Ignorance, like I said before.
from my research it is still a top 10 language along with C php mysql python javascript ruby. java making it to top 5.

And that research wasn't terribly difficult, was it? It's rather depressing to watch people confidently say things which they actually have no idea about.
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4646
    
    5

Paul Clapham wrote:It's rather depressing to watch people confidently say things which they actually have no idea about.


Welcome to the Internet
Jesper de Jong
Java Cowboy
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Aug 16, 2005
Posts: 14074
    
  16

william chaple wrote:so whyare people saying java is a joke?

Who are "people"? How many people and which people? Do they know what they're talking about?

For anything, whether it's about a car brand, a type of food, a programming language, the weather, or whatever, there are always going to be people who like it and people who don't like it. Just because there are some people who say they don't like it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with it.

Java Beginners FAQ - JavaRanch SCJP FAQ - The Java Tutorial - Java SE 7 API documentation
Scala Notes - My blog about Scala
william chaple
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 08, 2013
Posts: 108
Jesper de Jong wrote:
william chaple wrote:so whyare people saying java is a joke?

Who are "people"? How many people and which people? Do they know what they're talking about?

For anything, whether it's about a car brand, a type of food, a programming language, the weather, or whatever, there are always going to be people who like it and people who don't like it. Just because there are some people who say they don't like it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with it.


I have a post up above; meant it in a way that people think java is no longer being used. I dont understand why they think so.
It still falls under top 5 / 10 most in demand languages.

Seems like the programming language C and java are in top 5 of 2014 and even 2013 when I looked back

while the rest top ten in demand are server/web/script HTML5 javascript ruby PHP python

so why is it people think its a language no one is using? Or fear if all they know is java, they wont get a job when most entry level positions are looking for people who are experienced in java; they know they will have the concept and logic to code and put things together if a company wants to mold them. Face it, when it comes to programming is all about the love of programming and the first initial entry level job you need to obtain. If it was not for java or C where would people start?
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
Marshal

Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 60752
    
  65

william chaple wrote:so why is it people think its a language no one is using?

Again, who are these "people" you are talking about? The original poster heard this from his small circle of friends and assumed it applied to the general world. It doesn't. You need to start listening to more credible sources.

Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 41060
    
  43
Am I the only one who interprets what william said to mean that he is wondering the same thing, i.e. who those people are? In other words, the question Jesper and Bear are asking of william should instead be asked of the original poster.
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4646
    
    5

william chaple wrote:so why is it people think its a language no one is using?


Some people think the world is flat. It is impossible to argue against a vague statement such as your "some people". The most obvious thing one can draw from your statement is that some people are ignorant of the facts. Others have beliefs that simply can't be argued.

That said, this thread seems to attract a lot of trolls, not sure it deserves this much attention from serious folks like the bartenders.
 
It is sorta covered in the JavaRanch Style Guide.
 
subject: Java seems like a technology no one wants to use
 
Similar Threads
Forum improvements
Request for new Forum - Aspect/J
Is the whole screen a window?
whould java get better in future
App/Business Logic in Stored Procedures?