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Tianeman Square Anniversary

 
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http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/06/01/tiananmen/
 
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What really hurts, is that "one man, alone and unarmed" can still be wrong.
 
frank davis
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
What really hurts, is that "one man, alone and unarmed" can still be wrong.



If he wants basic human rights, democracy, and liberty is that what makes him "wrong" ?

Or is it simply abhorrant when any individual stands against the collective no matter what the issue?
 
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Herb: If he wants basic human rights, democracy, and liberty is that what makes him "wrong"?

Idealist you.

Or is it simply abhorrant when any individual stands against the collective no matter what the issue?

Na, it's simply abhorrent when an individual thinks it's his job to stands against the collective no matter what the issue!
 
frank davis
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Herb: If he wants basic human rights, democracy, and liberty is that what makes him "wrong"?

Map : Idealist you.



Yes, I happen to think he, and the thousands of other Chinese protestors that filled the Square, wanted something other than more communist repression. No, they weren't likely to be well read in the Federalist Papers and the intricacies American Constitutional law, but the makeshift Statute of Liberty they built was a symbol of their basic aspirations - to have more freedom.


Or is it simply abhorrant when any individual stands against the collective no matter what the issue?

Map : Na, it's simply abhorrent when an individual thinks it's his job to stands against the collective no matter what the issue!



[sarcastic statement and political side-swipe removed-MH]

Its really hard to figure out the censorship rules here. Any sarcasm of mine was several orders of magnitude less sarcastic than Map's "Idealistic you" comment, and its hard to mention an anniversary of a political protest without a political comment being there in some form, if not implicitly. Unless we want to discuss what the weather was like while the students were being killed...
[ June 05, 2004: Message edited by: herb slocomb ]
 
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Herb: If he wants basic human rights, democracy, and liberty is that what makes him "wrong"?

Idealist you.


You didn't answer the question whether you think it is wrong to want human rights, democracy and liberty...
I could draw conclusions but I think I'll give you a chance to answer the question instead.


Or is it simply abhorrant when any individual stands against the collective no matter what the issue?

Na, it's simply abhorrent when an individual thinks it's his job to stands against the collective no matter what the issue!



Individual thought is not acceptable?
I know such was the case in the USSR and still is in the PRC (as the actions of the PRC regime showed clearly in Tienanmen square) but most of us tend to think differently.
 
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Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:


Individual thought is not acceptable? ... but most of us tend to think differently.



Oh the irony
 
Jeroen Wenting
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Originally posted by Joe King:


Oh the irony



It is, isn't it?
That to be able to accept that someone thinks individual thought is unacceptable one has to hold the opinion that individual thought is not only acceptable but highly important...
 
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Jeroen: You didn't answer the question whether you think it is wrong to want human rights, democracy and liberty...

I didn't want to inflict more censorship on this long-suffering thread, especially when it's not me who is being censored. But let's try. "Is it wrong to want human rights, democracy and liberty" -- it is very much not wrong. Hope I put it clearly

I could draw conclusions but I think I'll give you a chance to answer the question instead.

I appreciate it.

Individual thought is not acceptable?

I think, it is not only acceptable, it is desirable. There is a difference between thoughts and actions, though.

I have controversial feelings about these events. From little I know, it's not that the students were attacked when they didn't expect it. The government actually tolerated their staying in Tianeman Square quite a time, in spite of martial law! Think about it, you prohibit something, your people don't care, yet you tolerate it for two weeks. Give the government some credit. And then, at that night, they were all very well informed about what is going to happen. They were asked to leave the square. They asked Western journalists to leave because they knew what is going to happen. They said "we are going to die". I certainly appreciate determination to die for your case, but I cannot stop wondering if there are better ways to spend your life, unless you are absolutely forced to die.

I just don't think they were absolutely forced to die. There was no mortal threat for their country.

Perhaps I am just a little pissed off that from what I heard about the events when they happened, I got an idea that they simply had no choice, so the whole event looked like a slaughter. With some more research it turned out they were in fact given plenty of time to go home.
[ June 07, 2004: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
I have controversial feelings about these events. From little I know, it's not that the students were attacked when they didn't expect it. The government actually tolerated their staying in Tianeman Square quite a time, in spite of martial law! ... ... Perhaps I am just a little pissed off that from what I heard about the events when they happened, I got an idea that they simply had no choice, so the whole event looked like a slaughter. With some more research it turned out they were in fact given plenty of time to go home.



Well, the students always have the "choice" not to protest in the first place. The problem is, in event like this, people expect rubber bullets and water canon, not tanks and real bullets. Remember that in China, citizens are not allowed to have guns -- so there is no real threat to the troops. The government could have done it differently but they chose to make an "example" for all those who dare to criticize.

Today, I think most Chinese agree that the 89 students' approach is not the best for the long term growth for China, and the "party" is probably right in placing political stability and economic growth above personal freedom. But those are *students* and they are expected to make mistakes. What pisses me off is the government chose to kill when there are clear alternatives.
 
Jeroen Wenting
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The people in the square knew they were dead the moment they entered it.
Had they left during those 2 weeks they'd have been immediately arrested and sent for life to concentration camps in the hinterland (the Chinese equivalent to the Soviet Gulag, though the Gulag was mild in comparison).

They preferred to make their deaths mean something and let the world see what the Chinese government does to those who dare oppose them rather than to live a life of slavery in the camps or a life of slavery in the cities (which they'd have if they never had spoken out in the first place).

I have nothing but admiration for that, I know I could probably not do it myself.

Of the survivors of Tienanmen square only a few hundred have been heard of since, most of them faded into obscurity are now low-paid factory workers or have other menial jobs rather than the white collar jobs they were being trained for at university.
All are under constant observation to ensure their loyalty to the state, even more than most other citizens.
I think they consider their brethren who died to be better off...
 
Mapraputa Is
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Thank you, Michael, for participating. I wondered, what the people of the country think, as opposed to all our outsiders ideas.
 
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Of the survivors of Tienanmen square only a few hundred have been heard of since, most of them faded into obscurity are now low-paid factory workers or have other menial jobs rather than the white collar jobs they were being trained for at university. I think they consider their brethren who died to be better off...


I am positively sure they do! All McDdonald's employees told me they are so envious of dead Indians... Jeroen, my friend try to get... Never mind.
 
Jeroen Wenting
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Better dead than live in slavery in a leadmine I'd say...
Better dead than in constant fear of arrest and deportation.
 
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