• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other Pie Elite all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • Ron McLeod
  • Paul Clapham
  • Liutauras Vilda
Sheriffs:
  • paul wheaton
  • Rob Spoor
  • Devaka Cooray
Saloon Keepers:
  • Stephan van Hulst
  • Tim Holloway
  • Carey Brown
  • Frits Walraven
  • Tim Moores
Bartenders:
  • Mikalai Zaikin

Can Live 8 make the difference?

 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1241
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yesterday Bob Geldof et al
announced plans for the sequel to Live Aid, Live 8. The purpose this time is not to raise money for a specific issue (as with Live Aid raising money for the Ethiopian famine), but to raise political awareness for the issue of poverty in the third world.

The plan is that, through a series of free concerts, people will be encouraged to put pressure on their governments to reduce the levels of debt owed by, and increase aid to, the poorest third world countries. As the name suggests, Live 8 is timed to coincide with the G8 conference. Geldof hopes that the high profile concerts will force the politicians at the G8 conference in Gleneagles to tackle the issue of third world poverty.

But will it work?

In recent years there has been a growing impression that people are becoming less confident that their donations to third world countries are helping as much. Disillusion has set it, as dictatorships use donations to fund their lavish lifestyles while their people starve. Some governments are reluctant to give money to countries with high levels of corruption.

The Asian Tsunami disaster showed the huge extent to which people are willing to give money, and the fact that people do believe that large scale funding can help make a difference. This was a more clear cut situation though - there was a specific disaster in a small set of countries. The world's attention was on the local governments, giving them little chance to appropriate the funds for inappropriate means. Much of the third world, in particular Africa, is different though - there are so many poor countries, so many dictatorships, that it can seem like money is being poured down a drain.

The key area where the rich governments can make a large financial assistance to poorer countries is in debt relief. The question remains though - should corrupt countries have their debt reduced?

The main argument of the "yes" camp is that even if some money is taken by the dictators of these countries, some gets through. The idea is that every little helps, and increases in education and health care could boost the country out of poverty. A loftier hope is that increased levels of education and interaction with the rest of the world could lead people in these countries to become better aware of their political situation, and better able to change it.

There are arguments against this though. By channelling money into corrupt countries, we could well be strengthening the dictatorships by giving them the funds to better arm themselves against their people. An alternative strategy is to award the debt relief only to those countries who are suitably democratic. This would, in theory, send a clear message to the dictators in other countries that they need to reform in order to help their people. It could also send a message to the people in these countries - get rid of your corrupt leaders, and we'll help you.

What if they can't though? Its a terrible choice. While it may be a good long term strategy to only aid the democratic and free countries, it is a hard thing to have to do. People will starve, and many of those will do so because they do not have the ability to get rid of their dictators.

Maybe there is another option - a path to success that doesn't rely solely on aid. Perhaps the G8 meeting could look at regime change strategies. Not so much in the Iraq meaning of the phrase, but in a gradual peaceful way. Corrupt countries could be offered the carrot (trade deals, debt relief, investment opportunities, technical assistance in improving infrastructure) and the stick (trade sanctions) to reform and change. We must somehow educate these corrupt and damaging leaders that they have a chance to save their countries.

It will be hard. How do we convince a kleptocractic dictator that they should make do with just one limo, just one luxury mansion, just one Swiss bank account, and put back the money into their country? The only way it can be done is for the G8 countries to stick together. Between them they have considerable economic might. The ability to make or break smaller economies can depend upon the discussions of these super-meetings. If they stand together, give a unified message, they can tell these third world countries that their situation can be different, but that they need to help themselves.

This is the key. No amount of aid alone can eradicate poverty. The third world needs to help us to help them. This is why G8 is important - its one of the few ways that the international political community can shout with a loud enough voice the message that we are willing to help, that we want to help, but that dictatorship and oppression stand in our way.
[ June 01, 2005: Message edited by: Dave Lenton ]
 
ranger
Posts: 17347
11
Mac IntelliJ IDE Spring
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think Bob said himself that he doesn't want our money but is really after countries forgiving the these countries debts. Which probably would never happen, unfortunately. I wonder if forgiving their debts would have a huge effect on the world's economy, good or bad?

Mark
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 15304
6
Mac OS X IntelliJ IDE Chrome
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mark Spritzler:
I think Bob said himself that he doesn't want our money but is really after countries forgiving the these countries debts. Which probably would never happen, unfortunately. I wonder if forgiving their debts would have a huge effect on the world's economy, good or bad?

Mark



I'd say that would depend on whether or not they are actually making payments towards these debts.
 
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I get all my opinions on world economics from washed-up rock and roll singers.
 
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1241
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
I'd say that would depend on whether or not they are actually making payments towards these debts.



I think a great deal of them are making payments, and rather substantial ones at that. I've seen somewhere (in the Times I think) that third world countries are paying around $30,000,000 a day between them. I also recall (but unfortunately can't find the link) reading that the yearly dept repayments for many African third world countries is well into double figures in terms of percentage of GDP.

Reducing this debt could make a large difference the economy within these countries, but probably only if the extra money was invested in things like education, healthcare and infrastructure instead of guns, cars, and presidential mansions.

It probably wouldn't have a huge economic effect in the global economy in the short term (except to slightly reduce the income for debt collecting countries), but in the long term a healthy thriving Africa could become a great trading partner.

By and large I'm all for reducing the amount of payments asked for, but only in those countries which are suitably democratic. Maybe instead of cancelling the debt in these democratic countries, the requests for repayment could be suspended, ensuring that the country has the threat of repayments if it moves towards less democracy. Still not a great solution (could cause the third world to see themselves as being threatened by the first world), but could be workable.

Another possible solution recently suggested is the idea of partnering countries, where a first world country forms a partnership with a third world country, for example the UK pairs up with Uganda, the US with Nigeria etc. The partners work together to help each other. By focussing each first world country on a specific third world country, it may be possible to raise the profile of some of the issues within that country. It'd be a bit like an international political version of pen-pals. It has the danger that some countries may get missed out though.
 
Greenhorn
Posts: 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I get all my opinions on world economics from washed-up rock and roll singers.



I've got the WHISTLE DOWN THE WIND T-SHIRT on. Surely the message is pre rock and roll ? circa 1940 -1950 ? U2 1980s ?

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/whistlewind.htm

http://www.screenonline.org.uk/film/id/452767/

http://libretto.musicals.ru/text.php?textid=370&language=1

I prefer the Hayley Mills version to ALW version.Lloyd Webber's Whistle Down The Wind is an overblown affair ...

Helen Thomas / HS Thomas

darned passwords!!!
[ June 02, 2005: Message edited by: HLN Thomas ]
 
HLN Thomas
Greenhorn
Posts: 8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I guess Java will be continued to be used for admin and legal secs for a while yet... It has to be Smalltalk for me

Bye
[ June 04, 2005: Message edited by: HLN Thomas ]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 451
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mark Spritzler:
I think Bob said himself that he doesn't want our money but is really after countries forgiving the these countries debts. Which probably would never happen, unfortunately. I wonder if forgiving their debts would have a huge effect on the world's economy, good or bad?



I'm sure he did. Let's consider how this would happen. The government would pay off the bond-holders and add it to the national debt - then raise taxes or lower Social Security or something to pay the freight. Geldorf want's our money.

I think we're willing to give it - but only when our government does the due diligence. Relief for well-run countries - but not a cent to swell Mugabe's pockets or support his kleptocracy.
 
Don Stadler
Ranch Hand
Posts: 451
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I get all my opinions on world economics from washed-up rock and roll singers.



You must be thinking of Bono, Mr. Krabs. Geldorf is an executive I think.

Let's start with Bob Geldorf himself - that's 4 billion right there! Enough to wipe out the debts of a couple of the smaller countries. Then he could auction off the beach rights on his Malibu mansion. He's been fighting like hell to keep the helots out (the folks living across the road, I mean).

The man has a rep as a great humanitarian - but charity doesn't begin close to home in his case.....
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Don Stadler:
You must be thinking of Bono, Mr. Krabs. Geldorf is an executive I think.

Never question my knowledge of late 70's, early 80's rockers. Geldof was the lead singer of the Boomtown Rats, famous for their song, "I don't like Mondays".
[ June 09, 2005: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
 
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Geldof was the lead singer of the Boomtown Rats, famous for their song, "I don't like Mondays".



Which, without resorting to google, was about what, Tom?
 
Don Stadler
Ranch Hand
Posts: 451
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Never question my knowledge of late 70's, early 80's rockers. Geldof was the lead singer of the Boomtown Rats, famous for their song, "I don't like Mondays".

[ June 09, 2005: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]



I defer to your superior knowledge. Today he'd be singing 'I don't Like the Peasantry (On My Beach)' and 'Your Taxes are Too Low (but not mine)'.

Possibly also 'I'm Great (You're not so Hot)'.

I don't think much of billionaires with decided opinions on other folks taxes who don't ante up themselves....
[ June 10, 2005: Message edited by: Don Stadler ]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 45
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Live 8 is a wonderful concept .Hope it should work and not like bonos publicity stunt of "one" and "save africa" .
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Which, without resorting to google, was about what, Tom?



It is a great song! Defintely the rats best.

On 29 January 1979, 16-year-old Brenda Ann Spencer opened fire on children arriving at Cleveland Elementary School in San Diego from her house across the street, killing two men and wounding eight students and a police officer. Spencer used a rifle her father had given her as a gift. As to what impelled her into this form of murderous madness, she told a reporter,"I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day."


http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/mondays.asp
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Don Stadler:
I don't think much of billionaires with decided opinions on other folks taxes who don't ante up themselves....

OK, you got me. When did Geldof become a billionaire? This is news to me. Last I heard was that Geldof lives in Ireland with his daughters and has contemplated running for president of Ireland.

OK, just checked Forbes and Bob Geldof is not a billionaire. Perhaps you are thinking of David Geffen?
[ June 10, 2005: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
 
Don Stadler
Ranch Hand
Posts: 451
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Probably.
 
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic