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Violence: how to do

 
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My friend said he is going to start boxing, because he is curious about what part of a man comes alive with all that. This reminded me a description of how a doctor performed a painful procedure on his patient, that I read in Bedside Manners by David Watts, MD.

"Much will be forgotten and much muted by the cloak of chemistry I throw over him. Even so, pain rises from his body like vapor, and reluctance swells within me like that cinch that froze my hand once in its arc of anger over my child. I remember that hand, having begun its descend to spank, halted, not by intent but by some unknown force, as if the body in its wisdom had the will to interfere with itself, refusing to carry out the errant command. Where are the nerve fibers for that antipathy to violence, I wondered. I don't know. But it was clear that even a deluge of rage could not wash them away.

Now, I shudder against the same resistance, but I hold my place. I have learnt that he will not be helped if I shy from the task. I disregard his pleas. I have learnt how to do this.

Now the time for the push. I call forth the savage beast, that, like cat, unresponsive to the squeals of the dying mouse in its paws, feels nothing. It sweeps through my body with a shudder. My face contorts, my breath gathers for the scream, and together we put aside aversion to pain, antipathy to violence, the protective mechanisms that keep us humane, a paresis just long enough to let my finish: to let me feel the membrane scrape and tear.

I withdraw.

We rest and return to ourselves. "

When reading this I wondered how accurate these words of calling forth the savage beast are. Is this only a metaphor, or is this deep psychological truth?
 
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I don't know about boxing so much but...

I'm a soldier in the U.S. Army. We train in hand to hand combat (called combatives) that deals a lot with grappling and the application of force to break someone's limb, block blood flow to the brain, and/or kill them. We also train with our weapons of course.

Now some background. I am the type of person that usually won't even kill a bug, even spiders, and seeing people or things unnecessarily hurt bothers me. Although I suppose in order to appreciate the good things, we must appreciate the bad as well, but that's an entirely new topic.

Having been to Iraq and the fact that I very much enjoy practicing combatives. When I know that I have to hurt someone or become immune to the pain of others, sometimes myself (and yes, there is a lot of pain in the military, especially after marching 12 miles with 65 pounds in your ruck, those shoulder straps feel like fishing line and it's not uncommon for people to re-evaluate their decision to live at that point) I just reach a state of mind that I know I have to do what I have to do. Sometimes it's rewarding, and sometimes very much not so.

Either way, I would agree that there is a place in everyone's mind where they are able to do violence upon another and make themselves at least temporarily immune to the pain.

Just my two cents.

Nathan
 
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Map, as a former boxer and MMA competitor, I have to ask. How old is your friend?

For that matter, how sane is your friend? Anyone who's looking for mindless violence in boxing in on a fool's errand, and probably won't be allowed into a reputable gym.
[ December 09, 2006: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]
 
Mapraputa Is
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Nathan, thanks so much for sharing this with us!

Max, let's say my friend is older and saner than me Why did you decide he's looking for mindless violence? As I understand, he wants to know what fighting involves. For that matter, I am curious too.

As a former boxer (why " former" by the way?) ... Can we interview you? While you think what to answer, here are the questions. When you are boxing, what is different in you? Does aforementioned "the savage beast" thing sound familiar? One thing I could never understand: as I know you, you are a kind and compassionate person. How do you go about beating up your partners? How are you doing it? Do you suspend compassion for certain time? Can you do it outside the boxing match also?
[ December 09, 2006: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
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I trained for about 15 years in martial arts (Americanized kickboxing), and I have to agree with Max. Your friend's motivation seems a little misguided.

As physical as it is, fighting is predominantly a mental game. The "savage beast within" is a product of fear, and that's precisely what you need to overcome if you are going to fight. The challenge is in not allowing that beast to take control, but instead remaining calm and focused. You can acknowledge it's there and let it push you, but never let it take over. This is where true confidence comes from, and this is why fighters are often very gentle and easy going outside the ring.

Indeed, the tactic of many good fighters is to coax the "savage beast" to surface in their opponent. If you can intimidate and frustrate the other fighter to that point, they will forget all their training and abandon all strategy. They will have no defense because they feel pressured to attack. Instead of well-timed precise combinations, they will swing blindly and ineffectively, leaving themselves wide open for counters.

So from my perspective, it's really about taming the beast -- not unleashing it.
 
Mapraputa Is
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Thanks, Marc!

Regarding my friend's motivation: look, all this talk about violence and "the savage beast" is mine ("the savage beast" is Dr. Watts' invention). My friend is simply interested in what is involved. Is this misguided motivation? What is the right motivation then?

So (even) fighters don't summon their inner savage beast. It looks particularly inappropriate for a doctor performing a medical procedure, so I wondered to what degree this description is accurate. I would also think that when we have to inflict pain on other, it requires concentration and better self-control, rather then calling forth "the savage beast"... The question about boxing is tangential here, related only in that in both cases the procedure performed can be painful.

So let me formulate my question better: how do we "put aside aversion to pain, antipathy to violence", what's really going on?
 
marc weber
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
...So (even) fighters don't summon their inner savage beast...


Well, some certainly do. (I won't name names, but there have been some prominent psychopaths in the sport.)

People have different reasons for wanting to fight. But in my opinion, a "healthy" motivation should be about positive self-actualization: Challenging yourself physically and mentally to achieve new levels of self confidence. Again, this is not about beating an opponent, because the true resistance comes from within.

Everyone at the gym is there because they want to be. Over the years, you train with many of the same people, and (in a healthy environment) you're all there to help each other out. If animosity starts taking over, there is a problem.

That's my perspective anyway.
 
Max Habibi
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how do we "put aside aversion to pain, antipathy to violence", what's really going on?

ah, now that's an excellent question. The answer, in short, is exposure. You learn to discriminate between pain and damage in the same way you learn to discriminate between good wine & bad: you expose yourself to both, mull it over, and try to sense the differences.

And you do it again.

That ability is at the heart of fighting: and it's incredibly liberating. It's not unlike losing your fear of strangers, while maintaining your common sense: all of a sudden, it's like entire worlds that were previously closed off to you have opened their doors.

M
 
marc weber
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Originally posted by Max Habibi:
... The answer, in short, is exposure. You learn to discriminate between pain and damage...


This is one of the most important things you learn in sparring: How to distinguish between "hurt" (seriously injured) and "hurting" (pain without "damage"). Most of the time, you're only hurting, and you can continue if you're able to control it mentally.

When people begin sparring, they often stop the first time they're hit. When I started, I frequently got the wind knocked out of me. At first, that took everything out of me (mentally), and I was finished for the night. Then I learned to get back in there after a not-so-brief recovery time. Eventually, I learned to stay in the fight when that happened. I vividly recall the first time I stuck it out: Part of me was saying, "You're done. Stop now and go home." But another part kept insisting, "Just a few more seconds..." As Max said, this is incredibly liberating, because once you've overcome this, you know that you can ignore that voice telling you to stop. And the next time you're tested (at that level anyway), you react with, "I'm okay."

I want to stress again how internal all of this is. I had no emotional reaction (e.g., anger) towards my opponent for "doing that" to me. The responsibility was entirely mine for allowing that to happen, and I needed to learn from it. So in addition to arguing with myself about whether to stay on my feet, I needed to perform some very quick analysis and make adjustments: What did I do wrong to present that opening? And how can I correct that?

And again, I'll go back to the camaraderie, and exchanging constructive feedback after sparring. "Damn, that was a good punch! How were you able to land that? Was my front arm too high? Was my distance wrong?"
 
Max Habibi
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So, if your friend actually reads our posts and really *does* want to try boxing, here's the formula.

Find a trainer who will teach you to shadowbox. A good trainer probably won't let him even hit a bag for a couple of weeks[maybe months], but *will* show him how to jab, cross, uppercut, and hook. Trust me, that's plenty. If your friends takes that to heart and actually does his shadowboxing well, he'll be quivering with exhaustion after his workouts.

He'll also probably lose a lot of weight in his first four weeks.

Then, a good trainer will let him hit a bag: by the time he's able to do that reasonably well, your friend will be about 6-8 weeks into his training.

Now, at about this point, your friend will be ready to try some contact. If the trainer's not annoyed with him, the trainer will start, very gently, tapping him with 16oz gloves to the body as your friend is shadow boxing. progressively, he'll move up to hitting harder, as well as using smaller gloves. Eventually, he's start tapping your friend to the head. This process with take your friend to the third month.

Eventually, your friend{if he's got the right spirit) will beg the trainer to let him into the ring. When he does, he's go panicky, and get his bell rung a little bit. Maybe even get a black eye or a bloody nose. If that happens, he's need to sulk off, lick his wounds, and decide if boxing is really for him.

If so, there's a whole 'nother cycle. But 95% of amateurs never get there. But wow, if they do get there: I can't describe the change in them: it's like seeing a man[or woman: my wife went through it] become born.

Ever read The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber? It's sorta like that. But it's different

So, that's my honest opinion.

HTH,
M

ps-Map, what are you up to these days? drop me a PM when you can.
 
Mapraputa Is
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There is a saying: one fool can ask more questions than a hundred gurus will be able to answer. Consequently, my natural state of being would to be that of frustration, but fortunately we have MD, where all your questions will be answered.

Some more questions...

Max: That ability is at the heart of fighting: and it's incredibly liberating. It's not unlike losing your fear of strangers, while maintaining your common sense: all of a sudden, it's like entire worlds that were previously closed off to you have opened their doors.

Accidentally, isn't this the same moment when fighters become "very gentle and easy going outside the ring" as Marc said?

Max again: I can't describe the change in them: it's like seeing a man[or woman: my wife went through it] become born.

Try to describe it please, it's very interesting. What is this man[woman] being born: a new personality? A better self?
[ December 12, 2006: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
marc weber
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
...isn't this the same moment when fighters become "very gentle and easy going outside the ring" as Marc said? ...


I think so. It's that leap in confidence that frees people from feeling threatened.

But I'm generalizing based on my own observations. There are certainly exceptions, and I would be interested in Max's perception. Also, there might be a liberating "moment" that opens the door for certain changes in personality, but these happen over time.
 
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