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Real programmers..

Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8904

My ex boss always says - "Real progarmmers use Textpad".
Can you guys please comment.


Groovy
Jeroen de Wolf
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Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Posts: 13
Then I wish you good luck in programming EJB interfaces and RMIC code in textpad!
Lasse Koskela
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Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 11962
    
    5
Actually, the cliche goes: "real programmers use vi"...
Note that this statement has never been anything more than a sarcastic saying used to refer to the ancient "I can code a for loop in Assembly faster than you can" complex.


Author of Test Driven (2007) and Effective Unit Testing (2013) [Blog] [HowToAskQuestionsOnJavaRanch]
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8904

I have mentioned "ex".. We had used ant
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8904

"real programmers use vi"...

What about Windows system?
Lasse Koskela
author
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Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 11962
    
    5
What about Windows system?

"Real programmers use Linux/UNIX/etc"...
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8904

Originally posted by Lasse Koskela:

"Real programmers use Linux/UNIX/etc"...

That is sad. I do not use Linux/Unix etc
Harjot Narula
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Posts: 11
Real Programmer neither codes in vi nor in textpad
He uses Google to search for the code.
Jim Toy
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 17, 2002
Posts: 14
Real programmers use punchcards.
There is a somewhat valid point to be made on the "Real Programmers use Textpad". The Pragmatic Programmers http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com Andy Hunt and Dave Thomas tout the virtues of plain text. Simply...plain text endures. Furthermore if you can find an editor that is extendable, that editor can be used for a variety of languages.
That being said, a "Smart Programmer" will leverage stylized tools to increase productivy.
So a Devloper has to ask themselves, am I willing to train myself to productivly use single purpose tools? Or use a development environment that reduces the learning curve?
Leslie Chaim
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Joined: May 22, 2002
Posts: 336
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:

What about Windows system?

Here's vi for Windows.


Normal is in the eye of the beholder
Ilja Preuss
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Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 14112
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
My ex boss always says - "Real progarmmers use Textpad".
Can you guys please comment.

"What do you care more about - wether I am a 'real programmer', or wether I am as productive as I could be?"


The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny - it is the light that guides your way. - Heraclitus
Charles Hasegawa
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Joined: May 22, 2003
Posts: 117
Well, I guess real programmers:
- Never have typos that cause compile errors
- Never need to run their code in debuggers (its much faster to use System.out.println when you really need to debug).
- Never need code assist, as they have memorized the entire Java API (plus its much faster to look up the correct signatures in the JavaDoc anyway).
- Are able to keep the imports for each class accurate (see last item).
- Never need to refactor/rename anything in their code.
- Have loads of extra time (due to above factors) to manually code accessors for all their JavaBeans.
- Are able to scan large .java files, which they did not write, and find each method that they are looking for quickly.
I have a lot of respect for all the "real programmers" out there that still use emacs, vi, textpad, or whatever non-tool text editor you prefer. Your dedication and ability to be productive using tools I could never be productive with is inspiring.
[ September 23, 2003: Message edited by: Charles Hasegawa ]
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8904

What do you care more about wether I am a 'real programmer', or wether I am as productive as I could be?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I want to be both.
[ September 23, 2003: Message edited by: Pradeep Bhat ]
Lasse Koskela
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Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 11962
    
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I'm anxiously waiting for someone to come up with assembly languages and hex editors...
Seriously, the answer is (once again) "right tool for the job". I think we all agree to that?
Michael Zalewski
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Joined: Apr 23, 2002
Posts: 168
How about
Real programmers *could* use TextPad, if they wanted to.
Juan Rolando Prieur-Reza
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Joined: Jun 20, 2003
Posts: 235
Very funny, wranglers
Why not take a 180 and look at it from a Star-Trek point of view...
Computer, activate the Emergency Holographic Programmer and gimme
a nice cup of java, Earl Gray, hot!
and so forth


Juan Rolando Prieur-Reza, M.S., LSSBB, SCEA, SCBCD, SCWCD, SCJP/1.6, IBM OOAD, SCSA
Bhushan Jawle
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Joined: Nov 22, 2001
Posts: 249
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Real programmers IMO use whichever tool is most appropriate from the ones available to them to get the job done.
Real programmers can use any tool effectively (if not necessarilly optimally) quickly after starting to use it and don't need to rely on wizards to generate code for them (but will use those wizards when available and appropriate for the task at hand).
Real programmers are not religious zealots who refuse to use any except a small subset of tools.


42
Dave Hewy
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Joined: Aug 21, 2003
Posts: 93
Maybe someone can define what a "real programmer" is ?
I use whatever tool makes me most productive. As I do this for a living I need to do as much as possible in as little time as possible, otherwise I might find myself unemployed!
Dave
David Attard
Greenhorn

Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 26
Its dumb to say you should still use textpad / vi. For those that are still coding in TextPad "HELLLOOOOOO", there are things out there that make your life easier. I mean we buy the latest hardware when we can, so why shouldn't it be the same with the tools we use to develop?
Real programmers use Eclipse Its free, and its good!


There's no place like 127.0.0.1
Gustavo Adolpho Bonesso
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Joined: May 11, 2002
Posts: 103
Real programmers do the job on the most efficient way. IDEs are fine to organize large projects.


Gustavo Adolpho Bonesso<br />SCJP1.4
Ed Merks
Author
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 08, 2003
Posts: 8
Real programmers can automate any task and that eventually includes the task of writing their code. How better to perform as a programmer than to use tools like EMF to do what is clearly the menial part of programming?
Getting back to the point about "real programmers"... I believe that they do indeed tend to have an obsession with some ancient form of editing. It is conceivable that Textpad may be what you heard, although I still tend to believe that this is a mistranslation of vi from the original Latin.


Author of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0131425420/qid%3D1064320896/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/102-6891814-9849714" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Eclipse Modeling Framework</a>
Richard Teston
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Joined: Feb 12, 2002
Posts: 89
"Real Programmer" IMHO are those programmer whose code can be read by both the processor and human, no matter what text editor or IDE they used.


The Code is the Programmer
Jeroen de Wolf
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 31, 2003
Posts: 13
Real programmers compile their code inside their head and some even can do the translation of bytecode
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8904

Real programmers compile their code inside their head and some even can do the translation of bytecode

I would like to meet the real programmer who does this.
Adrian Yan
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Joined: Oct 02, 2000
Posts: 688
A real programmer is one who writes good, sensible and readable codes that work for the users.
Jim Toy
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 17, 2002
Posts: 14
Originally posted by David Attard:
Its dumb to say you should still use textpad / vi.

I don't agree with this statement. If programmer becomes proficient using a good extendable editor, the editor becomes an extension of the person. A programmer can work by instinct when it counts. Instead of "...Oh I am in (insert IDE here). I need to click/press/type this to get what I want done to work."
[ September 29, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Toy ]
Joe Ess
Bartender

Joined: Oct 29, 2001
Posts: 8843
    
    7

Originally posted by Jim Toy:

I don't agree with this statement.
[ September 29, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Toy ]

I agree with this statement. I work a lot with WSAD and it's actually a joy to go back to a programmer's text editor (like Visual SlickEdit or JEdit) where I don't have to constantly be worrying about how to get the IDE to do what I want it to do. Now, if I have to refactor a couple hundred classes, or debug a EJB app, that's where WSAD shines.


"blabbing like a narcissistic fool with a superiority complex" ~ N.A.
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Stan James
(instanceof Sidekick)
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Joined: Jan 29, 2003
Posts: 8791
I knew a fella who could code up thousands of lines that would compile and run the first time. Maybe he was a real programmer. At least a seriously real desk checker! I admired that as long as we wrote on coding paper, submitted the paper for card punch, submitted the cards for compile and got results in three days. When we got interactive terminals I said screw that deskchecking stuff and let the compiler tell me if I mis-spelled a variable. Now with good IDEs I compile after almost every statement, and Eclipse is syntax checking as I type each character. Go with the times, man, this is great stuff!
BTW: I still keep my KEDIT text editor around. It is unmatched at damaging, er, modifying text. Nearly every day I copy-paste something from Eclipse or VAJ into KEDIT, edit it and copy it back. I don't necessarily want Eclipse to have this kind of text power, but I sure need it now & then.


A good question is never answered. It is not a bolt to be tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of the idea. John Ciardi
Ilja Preuss
author
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 14112
Originally posted by Jim Toy:
I don't agree with this statement. If programmer becomes proficient using a good extendable editor, the editor becomes an extension of the person. A programmer can work by instinct when it counts. Instead of "...Oh I am in (insert IDE here). I need to click/press/type this to get what I want done to work."

That's not an argument of editor vs. IDE, but of being proficient vs. being not or good editor vs. bad IDE. After all, what prevents the editor of an IDE from being as good as your editor of choice?
To me, Eclipse *does* feel like an extension of my person. It happens time and again that someone looking over my shoulder asks "wow, how did you do *that*" and I can't immediately answer, because it "just happens".
Ilja Preuss
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Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 14112
Originally posted by Joe Ess:

I work a lot with WSAD and it's actually a joy to go back to a programmer's text editor (like Visual SlickEdit or JEdit) where I don't have to constantly be worrying about how to get the IDE to do what I want it to do.

What parts do you have trouble with?
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404

Why not take a 180 and look at it from a Star-Trek point of view..

This is what a Klingon real programmer thinks:
Originally from SJ Baker's site:
A Klingon Code Warrior uses only machine code, keyed in on the front panel switches in raw binary."
You vi,TextPad programmers, you.
regards
[ September 29, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Sam Kebab
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Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 104
Real programmers use condoms.
Lasse Koskela
author
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Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 11962
    
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Originally posted by Sam Kebab:
Real programmers use condoms.

Real programmers don't have girlfriends because they're too busy compiling their home-made device drivers into the kernel
Matthew Phillips
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Joined: Mar 09, 2001
Posts: 2676
Originally posted by Lasse Koskela:

Real programmers don't have girlfriends because they're too busy compiling their home-made device drivers into the kernel

Real programmers make their device drivers out of condoms.


Matthew Phillips
Lasse Koskela
author
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Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 11962
    
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Real programmers program their own DNA to make condoms useless.
HS Thomas
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Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
Real programmers program their own DNA to make condoms useless

Difficult to find a Lower Common Denominator than that.
Still , nice responses to Illja's
What parts do you have trouble with?


regards
[ September 29, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 15, 2002
Posts: 3404
On that note, trying to rescue the thread:
Originally posted by Joe Ess:
I work a lot with WSAD

Is WSAD based on Visual Age or Eclipse ? Visual Age had some network problems when I last used it. Compared to Eclipse now it seems like driving a Ford T!
And Forte (the downloadable version) literally choked my machine to death last year.
regards
[ September 30, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Lasse Koskela
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Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 11962
    
    5
Is WSAD based on Visual Age or Eclipse?
Eclipse.
Ashok Mash
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Joined: Oct 13, 2000
Posts: 1936
Real Programmer use vi and produces brilliant, reusable & robust code.
Smart programmer use Eclipse and produces everything that real programmer can, in half the time.


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