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IDE's to develop juniors java skills

Rachel Swailes
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Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 434
Hi there

My boss has asked me to evaluate IntelliJ and Eclipse as possible IDE tools for our company to use. At the moment we use JCreator.

Now, call me an old fuddy duddy, but I'm worried about bringing on juniors and then making them use an IDE will make them lazy. Since all of you guys must use IDE's a lot, what do you feel about this?

Many kind regards,
Rachel
Paul Sturrock
Bartender

Joined: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 10336


Now, call me an old fuddy duddy, but I'm worried about bringing on juniors and then making them use an IDE will make them lazy.

I'd say it would make them more productive. I once worked for a client who wouldn't stump up for IDE licences (this was pre-Eclipse, and Forte (as was) wasn't really good enough at that stage) - what a nightmare. We also (necessarily) had an architecture which rendered our app-server's hot-deployment useless: so a ten minute stop, build, redeploy and restart stage was introduced for every change we made the effect of every small typo was magnified. So slow and a very frustrating environment to work in. Plus we had no debugger - a tool which can really speed things up.


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Ilja Preuss
author
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Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 14112
Originally posted by Rachel Swailes:

Now, call me an old fuddy duddy, but I'm worried about bringing on juniors and then making them use an IDE will make them lazy.


Lazy in which sense? What do you fear they stop doing, but should do?

In my opinion, you should *start learning* a new language using very basic tools - a text editor and a compiler, for example. For *working* in the language, you should use the best tools you can get, namely either Eclipse or IntelliJ IDEA...


The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny - it is the light that guides your way. - Heraclitus
Rachel Swailes
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 434
That is a really good arguement for that. "Learn the language in a text editor and work in the language in an IDE." I guess when we hire people they sure better already know how to code in the language!

Thanks for quelling my fears about IDE's and laziness. I think we're going to go for it!

Cheers,
Rachel
Jeroen Wenting
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Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
Originally posted by Paul Sturrock:

I'd say it would make them more productive. I once worked for a client who wouldn't stump up for IDE licences (this was pre-Eclipse, and Forte (as was) wasn't really good enough at that stage) - what a nightmare. We also (necessarily) had an architecture which rendered our app-server's hot-deployment useless: so a ten minute stop, build, redeploy and restart stage was introduced for every change we made the effect of every small typo was magnified. So slow and a very frustrating environment to work in. Plus we had no debugger - a tool which can really speed things up.


Which is why when I did consultancy work I used to carry a laptop on which were installed personal licenses of JBuilder, XMLWriter, Delphi, Borland C++, and several other IDEs and other tools.
For longterm jobs I'd install the stuff at the customer location on a machine only I had access to (Borland and now many others allows that).


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Paul Sturrock
Bartender

Joined: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 10336

Yeah that makes so much sense - at the time I was one of many developers on the project who suggested this to the PM. Unfortunately there were 26 developers on the project - and 26 JBuilder licences is not a trivial amount. It was all a foolish mistake by the client - someone who didn't really know had made the call that it was cheaper not to pay for the licences. Given the amount of extra development time this caused, boy were they wrong.
Jeroen Wenting
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 5093
$26k is indeed not trivial. I've worked under project managers who didn't have purchase authority for a replacement chair or monitor let alone something that large...

And try explaining to the CEO of a multinational (been in situations where such decisions were made at that level) that another editor from wordpad (yes, at one place that was all they had, not being allowed to install anything...) will earn itself back rather quickly especially given the consultancy fees charged by over half the project team.
Sirisha Reddy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 09, 2003
Posts: 75
Hello racheal
which IDE did you guys go with finally? and why?
Share your reasons.
Thanks,
Sirisha.


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