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The moose likes HTML, CSS and JavaScript and the fly likes web design tool Big Moose Saloon
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web design tool

nelson christos
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Joined: Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 57
can someone help me with deciding a good software for web design

thanks


i think therefore i am
Preeti Arora
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Joined: Jan 26, 2007
Posts: 74
Dreamweaver is pretty handy.
nelson christos
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Joined: Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 57
is it for beginners
Roger F. Gay
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Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 349
It might help if we know a little bit more about what you would like to achieve. If for example, you just want to build one website for business or pleasure, just curious, or want to start a learning process, you might first look at tools offered by website hosts. You can try PageWizard and PageBuilder by signing up for a free Yahoo / Geocities website account (with email). Google is just getting started with web-hosting but has a very simple web page building tool with their free offering.

If you're trying to learn to become a really good website developer yourself, rather than trying to quickly meet a limited need; you might get different advice about tools. But since you are a beginner, I suggest Yahoo / Geocities. It's free. You'll be able to publish on the web instantly, and you'll even find help pages on working directly in html. (also -- w3schools.com )

If you get to the point that you want to create a larger site with database for customer processing and all that sort of thing, Yahoo / Geocities offers fairly low prices and includes registration of your domain name (or you can use one that you already have), and functionality already built to do things that are common on websites -- like database, blog, etc. You can also use your own domain name on their free websites and Yahoo's prices for separate registration are good. But definitely start with the free offering and see how much you can do with that. (There are a variety of free offerings to create your own blog, for example.)

BTW: People in this forum like to do things from scratch with html, javascript, etc. We can do those things using the editor in such tools; but also in a simple text editor. I'm not sure how much the average participant in these forums uses web building tools. (But then, I've never asked.)
[ April 24, 2007: Message edited by: Roger F. Gay ]

Correlation does not prove causality.
Roger F. Gay
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Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 349
Another thought just occurred to me. Did you know that you can save pages created in Microsoft Word as HTML? Also ... there's an alternative Office suite offered by OpenOffice.org that creates better xHTML code, and allows export to other formats as well. I haven't used it for a while, but as I recall, it also has HTML mode editing. I don't know if that interests you right off ... but both can also convert PPT / Impress slides into web pages. It's not web-building tool software per se, but it allows you to build web pages with content very easily.
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
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Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 60781
    
  65

I'm not sure how much the average participant in these forums uses web building tools. (But then, I've never asked.)


Since you've now asked -- in a sideways sort of way -- I'd rather die than let some tool generate code for me.
[ April 24, 2007: Message edited by: Bear Bibeault ]

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Roger F. Gay
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Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 349
Originally posted by Bear Bibeault:


Since you've now asked -- in a sideways sort of way -- I'd rather die than let some tool generate code for me.


You're a man after my own heart.


nelson christos
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Joined: Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 57
we are a team of 3 to 4 java programmers who are developing inhouse softwares.we dont have much of html expereince. much of our time is spend on creating buisness logic. and our projects are not that huge too. so we dont have too much time to spend on html coding. we surely meeting the deadlines but you know the end result(look and feel) is okey dokey.so we would like to get the design fast and good as possible so that we can do the programming stuff. thanks
Roger F. Gay
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Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 349
OK. Now you're really leaving me confused. The next question is whether or not you actually want client side html - I mean, interacting in a sophisticated way with your back-end processes. Or is your html page just supposed to look good and have the occassional response to click sort of thing: do you rely on JSP for anything up-scale?

Reading through material on J2EE; they actually do name html browser pages as an alternative to JSP. The small companies I know of that do a good job with reasonably sophisticated html clients have at least one expert.
nelson christos
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Joined: Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 57
Originally posted by Roger F. Gay:
OK. Now you're really leaving me confused. The next question is whether or not you actually want client side html - I mean, interacting in a sophisticated way with your back-end processes. Or is your html page just supposed to look good and have the occassional response to click sort of thing: do you rely on JSP for anything up-scale?


i didnt get what it means by "JSP for anything up-scale".
we are using jsp' for rendering our html response' back to the client.
and it contains lots of operations to do. like we create CRM applications,
appraisal systems...so there you go, its not that confusing
stephen gates
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Joined: Apr 30, 2007
Posts: 69
"Reading through material on J2EE; they actually do name html browser pages as an alternative to JSP. The small companies I know of that do a good job with reasonably sophisticated html clients have at least one expert."


That all depends on where you work. As a consultant and contractor, I've worked for large corporations that had over 100,000 employees but each little group did their own thing. So if somebody in NY knew html and jsp but the person in Los angeles didn't it doesn't always mean they'll colloborate, know one another or have a chance to talk.

So maybe that person in NY is an expert in web design and development, maybe not, but over the years I've learned sometimes the whole MVC2 theory works more like a couple of developer's or programmer's or maybe even just one person works on the backend, also works on the middle tier as well as designs and develops the front end. And then is responsivle for maintaining those applications. It isn't just small companies.

There are probably a billion small applications out there for large fortune 500 companies and small 10 people companies. There are a billions small web applicions, internet and intranet sites. There are not always "experts" around. That's why forums like this are great.

And web design is a lot different than web development. The design, layout, colors, fonts of a page are not always the forte of programmers or engineers. So a tool like dreamweaver can help you with that.

Just cause I can code in html, xml, css, ajax, java, jsp, and so on doesn't mean the site has a good design. It just means the code probably works.
[ May 03, 2007: Message edited by: stephen gates ]
nelson christos
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 57
thanks stephen, you got the point.
about dreamweaver, before getting started i needed
to know whether i being a beginner, can i leran to use it fast
stephen gates
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Joined: Apr 30, 2007
Posts: 69
Most of those programs like Dreamweaver are relatively easy to use. Get a simple book or online tutorial and you should be up and running rather quickly. But it all depends on what you want to do with it.

They can do many many things besides just design. But a lot of what people use Dreamweaver, Frontpage, and all the other programs out there for are more or less, templating a website. You drag and drop a few things, add this and bam, you got a website in ten minutes. It makes things simple for non-tech people and designers. But I agree with Bear on the probelm with the auto generation of code. Most programs that generate code make maintaining that code a nightmare.

I worked on side projects with somebody who used a tool like dreamweaver. They were more a graphic artist than a programmer. And it was a nightmare fixing things because instead of an index.html file and a main.css file, there were a thousand image like files that seperated the content and pages. There were a ton of files, sections, images, and so on named abc123 and meant nothing to nobody.

When I create something, I try to organize everything so when I do have to change things, it's easy to go back in and figure out. If i'm working on the header of a webpage, naming the section "headerSection" will mean it is indeed the header section and so on. While if it's generated randomly by some program, I might go in to change that same header, but instead of headerSection, I now have to find abc123. Seems easy enough except there are also abc122, abc124, abc125 and many times those numbers and letters mean absolutely nothing. abc123 might be the header while abc124 could be some image name. It makes everything ten times harder just to find what everything does and is. It's a waste of time just to figure out, abc123 is the header section while abc126 is the footer section. And along with what Bear said, those generated pages become a real nightmare to maintain because nothing means anything. It's just all randomly generated. And if you don't understand HTML that well, it might make your life even worse if something is missing or doesn't work.

But back to your original questions. Most of those programs aren't that hard to pick up. They are WYSIWYG for a reason. So non-tech kind of people can use them. While they have many great features, most of those programs are way overpriced for what most people use them for. But for creating a simple web page with some graphics, it shouldn't be a problem.

But it won't make your site go from ok to great. There are many graphic artists out there that use photoshop and whatever else they use. They create logos, graphics and everything else that makes some pages fly. I'm impressed by some of the things good graphic artists do on the web and off the web. And if that's what your trying to do, Dreamweaver or any other program aren't going to make that happen.

If you want a simple site with some simple graphics, colors and so on, those programs will have you up and running in no time. You shouldn't worry about a learning curve. If you want to add things like flash, actionscript and whatever, that's a whole other story.

The problem becomes if you have all these generated pages with so many random variables, divisions, indexes, images, and so on you get lost in the mix when it's time to change something or upgrade. Or the next person curses you out because it's a nightmare to maintain the site or application.
[ May 04, 2007: Message edited by: stephen gates ]
 
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