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Naming Convention - Issues - Long Post

Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
This post is regarding username convention used by Java Ranch.
The Preface:
I have registered as dip ch (short form of my formal name Dipankar Chakrabarti). Which is exactly following the principle published in Java Ranch.
QUOTE FROM JAVA RANCH "Official policy on registered names by Paul Wheaton, sheriff"
This does not mean that if your formal name is Michael Jingleheimerschmidt that you cannot use "Mike Schmidt". In fact, one of our prestigeous sherriffs is "Mahalakshmi Annadurai", but you know her as "Maha Anna".
........................
It is possible that you are uncomfortable about using your real name on the web. This happens. In that case, feel free to register using a fictitious name, although this will probably be a disadvantage to you in the future. Use something like "Al Swensen" or "Rob Cheeny". Do not use cute names like "Justin Case" or "Adam Baum". Do not use the names of celebrities.
END QUOTE
Now I find the following messages, one from Shailesh (posted against my query � instead of answer) and another from Jim Yingst (this was against my email asking "why I was unable to post in a particular forum")
QUOTE START of Shailesh
PROPER NAMES ARE NOW REQUIRED
Please look carefully at official naming policy at javaranch & reregister yourself with proper first & last name. Please adhere to official naming policy & help maintain the decorum of the forum.
Waiting for your posts with proper first & last name. Once you have reregister , please let us know about that & then your previous account will be disabled.
Regards.
Your Friendly Bartender
Shailesh.
End Quote of Shialesh
Quote START of JIM:
Ah. We actually require a full last name, or at least
something that looks like it could be a full last
name. You're welcome to make something up if you
don't want to give your full real name - but the last
name should probably have a vowel somewhere, to look
"real". We're more relaxed about first names; you'll
see that we allow abbreviations there - but not for
last names. Sorry for the inconvenience; it's prety
easy to re-register though with a different name.
- Jim Yingst, jim@javaranch.com
END QUOTE of JIM.
MY QUERY AND SUGGESTIONS:
1. Though I registered exactly as per the policy (refer specially to " prestigeous sherriff � MAHA ANNA"), I got a post from Shailesh.
IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER TO SEND A MAIL TO THE USER ( at the time of registration you take concurrence of sending mail by administrators! � for what I do not KNOW?) INSTEAD OF FRUSTRATING POSTS AGAINST A QUERY, FOR A CLARIFICATION
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND PRIMA FACIE WHETHER A NAME IS FICTITUOUS OR NOT (you may ask for Birth Certificate/University Certificate/Diploma..- Please ask that � if you are so paranoid!!!)
FOR EXAMPLE : XHOLOXA XIM is a real name found in South African Community or Gimbolong Theimei is a real name found in North Eastern India�AND I AM SURE THERE ARE LOTS OF SUCH EXAMPLES
2. Refer to Jim's mail: START OF QUOTE: You're welcome to make something up if you don't want to give your full real name - but the last name should probably have a vowel somewhere, to look "real". END OF QUOTE
IF IT IS SO PLEASE STATE UPFRONT IN THE POLICY � do not think everything is understandable.
3. Refer Shailesh's post: start of Quote: Waiting for your posts with proper first & last name. Once you have reregister(ed) , please let us know about that & then your previous account will be disabled.
How to let you know about the new name is also not clear � Could not find any material in the site, from where it is clear.
4. I think if Jim's mail is stating the policy (last name with vowel..) please check it with javascript at the time of registration- pretty easy isn't it?
Angela Poynton
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 02, 2000
Posts: 3143
First of all, as has been mentioned in numerous threads in this forum, we do not use javascript to check the validity of a user name at registration because it means hacking the UBB software, we are considering an upgrade fairly soon and do not want to have to do the hack twice.
Secondly, Welcome to Javaranch, this is a very friendly place, please do not get so angry about this. Remember that everyone here is a volunteer (even the Sheriffs) and we are here to help you, but we have had to make a few rules to keep this place "Professional". A lot of people here access Javaranch from work and I personally do not have a problem with my boss catching me here because it is such a professional place and I can say "I'm looking for a solution to a problem I've come up with." and he's happy with that!
Maybe the naming guidelines aren't as specific as they could be and unfortunatly you feel you have suffered because of that. However, while I understand your frustration, it wasn't suh a big deal to register again was it? Hopefully soon these problems will be a thing of the past, like all good things we are still learning and growing.
You're new name is fine, and now I hope you will put this bad start behind you and discover just what a good place this is.

Pounding at a thick stone wall won't move it, sometimes, you need to step back to see the way around.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Thanks for your sweet note.
I sure understand that everybody here is volunteering and me too have no problem to do the same.
I had my name like that because I am usually referred to as that. No hiding of name.
For that "boss" matter - I am not in that category - getting caught or catching anybody!
I have no bad feelings, not angry (Frustrated YES).
Still, there are needs for clarification of the issues raised in the post. I am really not sure why the previous name was bad.

I am sure you do a general discussion before formalizing any policy. I think there is a need of that (just like W3 standards) and will be waiting for the same.
I am sure to have a nice time here

[This message has been edited by dip chak (edited July 27, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by dip chak (edited July 27, 2001).]
Angela Poynton
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 02, 2000
Posts: 3143
I'm glad you're not angry
When we set up the naming policy we did go through some discussion and came up with what you have seen.
Maybe it does require some revision, but if you re-read it and kind of look at the sub-context (maybe not very obvious) all of the examples of acceptable names are ones which could be real, even though they are shortened from other names or made up completely.
Ch, just doesn't say "real name" to me. It's not neccessarily got anything to do with vowels though, but funnily enough if you had just entered one more character "Cha" it probably would have been left alone.
Pauline McNamara
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 19, 2001
Posts: 4012
    
    6
Because javaranch is an international site, I think it's important to keep in mind that what "seems like a real name" in very strongly influenced by culture. It would be presumptuous to assume that one could make this judgement if one doesn't share the same language or cultural background.
In order to be fair, the naming policy might have to set down strict rules that don't involve this type of judgement, but stick to a number of letters. If having a vowel makes a difference, that should be stated explicitly.
Already it's not really possible to check for names of celebrities or cute word plays in a foreign language or culture...
Just some thoughts,
Pauline
shailesh sonavadekar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 1874
dipanker chakrabarti , what a good name . You can register that name without any problem isn't it ? see My name is completely registered. " Shailesh Sonavadekar " & the thing about Maha Anna. It was before all the naming policy issues came. She is one of the oldest members of Ranch & biggest contributor. That time , I think there was no such policy.
I feel As Professional site We must follow the rules & regulations set now. I feel Dipanker , point is clear now.
Your Friendly Bartender
Shailesh.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
JUST THE THOUGHT OF HAVING MY NAME UNNECESSARILY MUTILATED, GIVES ME A BAD TASTE IN MY MOUTH.
just see, though you are an Indian (name says so! may not be correct) you have mis-spelt the name. It is Dipankar not Dipanker.
AND SAILESH: WHO IS HOW OLD A MEMBER IS NOT A QUESTION. PROBABLY YOU COULD NOT AT ALL UNDERSTAND THE POINT. I AM RESTATING IT:
The policy is defined only a few days back and it clearly states that you can use short names and also fictitious name and it has an example of the said sheriff. Now, the thing whihc you are trying to state " As Maha is one of the oldest member ...." - that could have been clearly stated in the policy and THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A Strict dictum NOT TO SHORTEN YOUR NAME WHEREVER YOU ARE (not even Thomas to Tom ....), CULTURE - BACKGROUND NOTHING SHOULD MATTER.
Moreover how the real name and professionalism goes hand in hand is not clear. Would you please explain it.
I AM REALLY NOT SURE WHY "cha" is aceptable to "ch" - Would you please explain it.
As I have mentioned earlier, I am mentioning again, if this is supposed to be an International Site and not for a particular Country, then the policies are to be created in discussion with all. WHAT IS YOUR COMMENT?
I have not really seen a thread which was dedicated to discussion of naming policy as such. If there any please give me reference.
I WILL EXPECT A POINT WISE REPLY.
Bye
DC

Originally posted by shailesh sonavadekar:
dipanker chakrabarti , what a good name . You can register that name without any problem isn't it ? see My name is completely registered. " Shailesh Sonavadekar " & the thing about Maha Anna. It was before all the naming policy issues came. She is one of the oldest members of Ranch & biggest contributor. That time , I think there was no such policy.
I feel As Professional site We must follow the rules & regulations set now. I feel Dipanker , point is clear now.
Your Friendly Bartender
Shailesh.

Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
In continuation of my first post:
1.I have asked a question: Why it is not possible to send a Email to the user having not maintaining the naming convention, rather than posting the "caution" against a query?
I think this would be more "Professional".
2.How to let a person know that one has created a new identity so the previous one may be removed- No answer to that also.
William Barnes
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 16, 2001
Posts: 986

Wow, chill out. Is the naming convention on this site the only issue you have with life or what?
If you want people to reply to you at all you should ask nicely, and not say things like:
I WILL EXPECT A POINT WISE REPLY.
Using all caps and/or bold makes it look like you are yelling at people. You should be happy with any reply at all, point wise or other wise. You act like someone is cheating you out of something. Like you paid for something and didn't get what you expected.
(I don't have anything to do with running this site so I can't answer any of your questions.)
I am wildly impressed with the way this site is run and enjoy visiting every day.
You take care now.

Please ignore post, I have no idea what I am talking about.
Dave Vick
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2001
Posts: 3244
Originally posted by dip chak:

Moreover how the real name and professionalism goes hand in hand is not clear.

Dip
I am fairly new to the ranch (only a couple of months) however I really think that having people use their real names is a plus for the site. I've been to quite a few other sites that let the users use whatever name they wanted to, the impression I get from them is less than serious. Yes, the quality of the responses is still pretty good and the people are generally helpful. The impression I get from the ranch however is more a convention or large professional meeting where everyone wears a name tag. This is nice, it lets you know who they are. If by chance you ever meet them in person, or see their name elsewhere, you'll know it right away and be able to identify with them. Nicknames and shortened names are great too and are, and hopefully will continue to be, allowed. I'm listed as Dave because the only ones who call me David are my mom and my wife (and that's only when they're mad at me). By all means, use whatever name you feel comfortable with, but most people I'm pretty sure are going to more comfortable themselves thinking that the person they are talking isn't hiding their name for whatever the reason.
...if this is supposed to be an International Site and not for a particular Country, then the policies are to be created in discussion with all.

It is supposed to be, and, in actuallality is an international site!! There are literally people that come here from all over the world to give to others, learn from them or just obsorb what others here have. That is one of the best things about this place. However, being international doesn't imply democratic. The owners of the site could require everyone to log in with the name 'Joe Schmuckatelly' and you would have no choice. Requiring some measure of honesty or at least discouraging anonymous posting (except in MD) gives me a sense of ownership when I post and a responsibility to the others here.
These are my opinions, others may disagree, but I don't think many will.

Dave


Dave
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20695
    ∞

I would have missed this party if one of the sheriffs hadn't pointed it out ....
There has been a great deal of debate in the past over the naming policy. Let's see if I can dredge up the relevant details....
Bartenders and sheriffs will post to a public forum instead of sending e-mail for three reasons: 1) It's easier and these are unpaid volunteers, so their time has great value; 2) If the name does not meet our standards, the e-mail address is usually bogus; 3) We want lurkers that have not yet registered to know to not attempt to register with a name that does not meet our standards.
"Ch" vs. "Cha": we're mostly Americans here. And this country does have a great deal of ethnic diversity. So the idea of different naming conventions is not that unusual. But there are some perfectly valid names that don't look valid. And when those get on the system, we suddenly get a mountain of people registering with fake names - after all, if that one person can do it, why can't they. To maintain the level of professionalism we are looking for - and do it with just volunteers - we require those people to "Americanize" their names. It's certainly debatable about whether this is the right approach or not. And the topic has already been debated at great length. Personally, I feel that while this approach is not perfect, it is the best that has been presented so far.
Some people have argued that we should make these policies more clear on the sign up page. We think that the more we write, the less people will read. Most people will read several messages before posting, so hopefully they will get the general feel before creating their account. Even with the one rule, many people do not abide, thus creating work for the volunteers.
These policies seem to work for 99.9% of the folks that come to the ranch. I think the 0.1% of folks that are less than happy is the price I'm willing to pay for the level of professionalism we gain.


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Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Dip,
If you don't like the rules then no one is forcing you to post here. Give us the word and we will delete your account for you. This is Paul's site and he has rules that he wants people to abide by in order to use his site. We are volunteers and spend many of our own hours here. It seems to me that the very least you could do is abide by what are extremely simple rules. When you registered you pushed the "agree" button under a statement that said "use your first name and a last name". It didn't say use a cute nickname or shorten your name. If this somehow offends you then there are many other sites you can visit that don't have this requirement.


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Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
> I AM REALLY NOT SURE WHY "cha" is aceptable to "ch"
> - Would you please explain it.
Fundamentally, because "cha" looks like it could actually be a complete last name, and "Ch" does not. In fact I have a co-worker whose last name is "Cha". I've never met, nor do I expect to meet, anyone whose last name is "Ch".
In Dip's defense, I don't think the written policy is quite as clear as Thomas says. Let's look at the actual text:
> For your user name, use a first name,
> a space and a last name.
By saying a first name and a last name, rather than "your", we're implicitly acknowledging that the user name need have no connection whatsoever to one's actual name.
> No commas or underscores, and the last name must be more than
> one letter.
Clear enough. Dip obeyed this - the problem appears to be that he thought these explicit rules were the complete set. But on the next line...
> Obviously fictitious names or improperly formatted names may
> be locked out.
This is the key part. What constitutes "obviously fictitious"? The longer form of our name policy does explicitly acknowledge that shortened forms of names can be acceptable. (E.g. Maha Anna.) So I don't think it was at all unreasonable for Dip to think that "Ch" might be a valid name, given these rules. As it turns out, most all the moderators (including myself) think it's too "obviously fictitious". No, we never thought to explicitly put in a rule requiring a vowel, mostly because I don't think anyone had previously attempted such a minimal adherence to our stated rules. Usually people either don't read the rules at all (all too often), or they choose a username which looks like a real name. If we increase the complexity of the rules, we'll just increase the size of the first group at the expense of the second.
The thing is - we'd really like to encourage as many people as possible to use their real names here. We recognize that we can't get everyone to do so, because (a) we can't really verify if people are using real names or not, in most cases, and (b) some people are legitimately uncomfortable about releasing personal information in a public forum. Fine. In this case we ask people to please adopt aliases which look like real names, and do not encourage too many other people to adopt even-more-fake-looking names. There will always be some gray areas here, no matter how we define our rules, but for the most part people have been pretty understanding when we inform them that their names are too fictitious for our taste. We're open to suggestions as to how we can improve this process - but please remember that we're all volunteers here, and don't respond too well to demands.
> 2.How to let a person know that one has created a new identity
> so the previous one may be removed- No answer to that also.
Unfortunately one of the limitations of the UBB software which we utilize here is that users cannot edit their usernames, nor can they delete their accounts. However it's usually no problem if users simply create a new account - there's no real need to delete the old one. Except that if the user later forgets their password and tries to get the system to mail it to their registered e-mail address, UBB balks if there is more than one account with the same address. (I'm not sure why the UBB designers thought this was a desireable security feature, but we're stuck with it.) At this point the user usually sends mail to moosesaloon@javaranch.com (me), and I delete their old account for them, which allows them to receive the password for their remaining account. I can also do this for anyone who asks me to before they forget their password - I just deleted "dip dh" for you. Usually though it's easier not to bother until it becomes an issue for a person.
Dip, I'm sorry we seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot, and I hope you will continue to participate at JavaRanch. Cheers...
[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited July 28, 2001).]


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shailesh sonavadekar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 1874
really becoming unnecessary long discussion. Dipanker , you are really creating unnecessary issue. See , even what other ranchers like Christopher & Dave are saying. What is the meaning of Professionalism & Real Name , you will come to know from Dave's post ? If you want to continue here , then you must use your full name. That is what is echoed by other javaranchers also. It is not the officials of this site , but the other javaranchers are also understanding the importance of this naming policy.
Other thing is We all at javaranch have different & important objective , rather fighting on naming convention , as correctly pointed out by Christopher.

So , choice is in your hand.
Your Friendly Bartender
Shailesh.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
First thing first:
I was really not trying to yell at the Site. This is a great site and will continue to be the same. If someone followed the post sequence will understand that from answer to Angela's post.
I was frustrated as my name was misspelt and some body trying to selling me an idea " My Name is Nice!" LO!
Thanks Jim for your superb note. A special thanks to Paul, being the site owner (as mentioned by Thomas Paul : "it is Paul's site ..."), you have cleared the doubt over "Americanizing" the names and also that people do not read text ( Many people may differ, but that's again debatable)
Dave: As you have registered as Dave in place of David, the same reason I was trying to register as dip ( I am known to my friends from Japan to US and Brazil to South Africa as DipC).
Shailesh: Try to read the posts before answering, you are repeatedly mis-spelling my name and I am sure though you have many other Objectives, you can give a bit care to spell it correctly (when you are already informed!).
Also read these postings ( specially Jim's, Angela's, Paul's) before commenting as "you have to register with full name" or "unnecessary long.." and A small friendly tip to you: there should not be a space between comma and the word previous to comma (as far as I know).

Bye
shailesh sonavadekar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 1874
I am purposefully writing your spelling wrong to see your response . It seems you are not getting the message. You are more interested in commas & spellings then real thing which is to share knowledge. It seems that you don't want to participate in manner the site works.
Thomas Paul is already mentioned that if you don't want to post , don't post. I , As Moderator of the forum did my job. If you want to continue fighting like this & wasting others valuable time , then I have suggested only solution to the sheriffs to the problem as disable your account.
Here is example people compling to the policy. There are numerous such examples. but , you are not understanding.

I think he is also indian. that is another point I want to stress upon that this site is not discriminating any country or nationality , age & sex. Please don't raise issue of nationality.
Your Friendly Bartender
Shailesh.
[This message has been edited by shailesh sonavadekar (edited July 30, 2001).]
Dave Vick
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2001
Posts: 3244
Dip
I would have to agree with Shailesh, the point is to gain/share knowledge. Yes, it is nice to have people spell your name correctly, however because of the international makeup of the site there will always be people from different countries and cultures that simply dont know.
I know there are some (probably quite a few people) who have their names listed as last name then first name, as opposed to the US way of first name then last name. When I reply to a post I always use the first name listed, sometimes that is a persons last name and I appologize for that. On the other hand I've had quite a few replies to my posts that list my last name first. The point is that it doesn't matter just so long as we all understand that the point isn't to be perfectly correct in our conventions, it is to help each other. I think most people realize that.
If there is a case where someone doesn't like the way their name is spelled or a persons use of abbreviations, or grammer, just politley ask them to change it and in most cases they will make every attempt to comply.
This is truly a great place to come and learn more about the java language and specifically more about getting certified as a SCJP, lets not make it overly taxing on people to be 100% politically correct and things will be much easier on everyone. There is a simple naming convention in place and other than certain rules about posting there are very few rules about what you can and can not do here. Check out meaningless drivel to see what I mean
It is everyones right to complain and/or make suggestions. Once that's been done it is up to the bartenders and sherrifs (and ultimately Paul) to decide whether or not to implement them. If they do great, if not then you've said your piece and can move on and keep helping others on the site.
Sorry if this came over as rude I dont mean it that way. My whole point is that we're here to help others, yes we should be polite and try to be politically correct, but with the diverse cultures represnted here that's not always possible. We'll never make everyone happy, but at least we can make every attempt to help as many people as we can.

just my $.02

Dave


Angela Poynton
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 02, 2000
Posts: 3143
OK, chill guys!!
Dip, I'm happy you understand things a bit better now. Welcome to Javaranch, have fun here, learn lots, and help people lots and I hope you'll grow to love this site as much as we do! See you around!
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Originally posted by shailesh sonavadekar:
I am purposefully writing your spelling wrong to see your response .

Oh! really!! hmmm... a point to ponder!!!
 
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subject: Naming Convention - Issues - Long Post