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advice needed regarding HTML and JavaScript

Ed Stevens
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Joined: May 06, 2008
Posts: 38
What is the prior programming experience needed to start with HTML & Javascript ?Can someone with an elementary programming knowledge start with learning these?Also,is HTML a prerequisite for Javascript?

Can i skip Java & start with HTML STRAIGHTAWAY because this(web -programming)
seems to be most in demand in modern times esp. from the point of view of job prospects & salaries?Later on i plan to learn PHP to be proficient in server side development as well...i hope i am on the right track ....please suggest...

[ July 09, 2008: Message edited by: Bear Bibeault ]

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Jesus Angeles
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Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 2061
It looks like you are still on the process of planning your action, you still have a wide range of choices. Therefore, I would only add some ideas.

Here are 2 tracks, for server-side web development (learn them, in the order shown):

PHP

1. HTML
2. JAVASCRIPT
3. PHP

JAVA

1. HTML
2. JAVASCRIPT
3. JAVA
4. JSP/SERVLETS

JAVASCRIPT will live inside HTML, so you ideally learn HTML before javascript.

Yes, prior elementary programming knowledge is more than enough. It will be helpful when you do javascript and onwards.

Skip java and go to html? As shown above, you need java only if you will do java programming. PHP career doesnt need java. And just to mention, java and javascript are 2 different thing.
Ed Stevens
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Joined: May 06, 2008
Posts: 38
Thank you.For Server side you have just mentioned what needs to be learnt.I think knowledge of Javascript(AJAX,DOM,JSON),HTML & CSS will suffioce for client side development as well.Please if you can throw some light about ASP.
Its great to know that i can manage these despite not learning JAVA(except ofcourse for JSP/Servlets ).Many thanks..
Jesus Angeles
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Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 2061
Originally posted by Ed Stevens:
Thank you.For Server side you have just mentioned what needs to be learnt.I think knowledge of Javascript(AJAX,DOM,JSON),HTML & CSS will suffioce for client side development as well.Please if you can throw some light about ASP.
Its great to know that i can manage these despite not learning JAVA(except ofcourse for JSP/Servlets ).Many thanks..


Yes, CSS is important, for better looking front-ends.

I am not heavily familiar on microsoft server side development, but I think it is like below:

(this is dot net)

1. HTML
2. JAVASCRIPT
3. CSS
4. Your choice on language that runs on microsoft 'virtual machine': C#, VB, C++, etc.
5. ASP

I think PHP, ASP and JSP are of similar purpose, to generate HTML dynamically, each of them, from their own worlds, PHP, microsoft, and java, respectively.

Just a note, that AJAX, JASON, etc. are indeed part of javascript, and part of front-end, but they are usually used, along with some correspond server-side code at the server. So if you will learn AJAX, etc., you ideally must learn at least one of the server side dudes like jsp/servlet.
Ed Stevens
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Joined: May 06, 2008
Posts: 38
Originally posted by Jesus Angeles:


Just a note, that AJAX, JASON, etc. are indeed part of javascript, and part of front-end, but they are usually used, along with some correspond server-side code at the server. So if you will learn AJAX, etc., you ideally must learn at least one of the server side dudes like jsp/servlet.


So you mean i will need to either take the JAVA-JSP/Servlets route or learn ASP.NET.Perl & Ruby can help too-but they are not as popular i guess..
Jesus Angeles
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Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 2061
Originally posted by Ed Stevens:


So you mean i will need to either take the JAVA-JSP/Servlets route or learn ASP.NET.Perl & Ruby can help too-but they are not as popular i guess..


I am on java. I want to learn dot net too, but both are huge. Java itself will take time to get my skills up to date (yeah, you cant stop learning, or youll get obsolete and jobless). It is the same thing with dot net. So it is a matter of lack of time, that is why we choose only 1 of them. But some of course can do both.

I hear people say stuff like Ruby is so efficient, esp. Ruby on Rails, but at the moment it is still young and hasnt reached critical mass, to my opinion.

If you go above developer, like architect, who specialize on multi-platforms, then you need to know all of them, not necessarily down to coding level, but architecturally know what each technology can do.
Ed Stevens
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Joined: May 06, 2008
Posts: 38
Thank you so much! So,finally i can stick to Java presently (which i already started a couple of weeks back) till the time i finish with JSP/Servlets.This raises another question-Will it mean i have to master J2EE?

And Jesus - you have learnt HTML & Javascripts too.So i don't think you will really need to learn ASP BUT IF YOU DO IT WILL BE THE ICING ON THE CAKE.
Jesus Angeles
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Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 2061
Originally posted by Ed Stevens:
Thank you so much! So,finally i can stick to Java presently (which i already started a couple of weeks back) till the time i finish with JSP/Servlets.This raises another question-Will it mean i have to master J2EE?

And Jesus - you have learnt HTML & Javascripts too.So i don't think you will really need to learn ASP BUT IF YOU DO IT WILL BE THE ICING ON THE CAKE.


I am about only 2 years into j2ee, so i cannot say about what to master. Maybe, other guys here can comment? Please answer his question. I also am curious on what to focus on next.

One thing is for sure, if you choose java, you have javaranch to help you. This is a great java community.

What did you mean by "......ASP BUT IF YOU DO IT WILL BE THE ICING ON THE CAKE."
Ed Stevens
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Joined: May 06, 2008
Posts: 38
I meant having learnt JSP/Servlets/J2EE ,HTML ,JAVASCRIPTS- If you add ASP.NET to this list this ought to make you the most versatile programmer in the market.
Ed Stevens
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Joined: May 06, 2008
Posts: 38
Hey Jesus! check this link out- they have collected their data from millions of job-sites around the globe.

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=ASP%2CHTML%2Cjavascript%2CPHP%2Cj2ee&l=
Jesus Angeles
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Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 2061
Originally posted by Ed Stevens:
I meant having learnt JSP/Servlets/J2EE ,HTML ,JAVASCRIPTS- If you add ASP.NET to this list this ought to make you the most versatile programmer in the market.


Yes, but rarely would a company have these 2 technology platforms (asp and jsp), assigned to 1 person, unless you are a multi-platform manager, or architect.

The reason is, asp world and jsp world can hardly talk to each other without using complicated interface technology like CORBA, or the simpler xml web services. I think servers are either java, or dot net, and never both.

So, actually, I do want to learn dot net too, but, for the purpose of going to architect position.

This is because going so deep coding level to dot net, would need much time, and it would take me away from java time. And going on next higher level - architect, is a much more sensible way, in that case, so that you can use all your skills together.
Ed Stevens
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Joined: May 06, 2008
Posts: 38
OK! How long do you think it takes someone to learn Java ,HTML,Javascript & JSP/Servlets-J2EE ?How long did it take you?I know the answer will vary person to person-but you have been working amidst a number of programmers around-what is your perception?
Ed Stevens
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Joined: May 06, 2008
Posts: 38
i think i will be able o devote around 3-4 hours daily after college for the next 3.5 months-then i will be busy with project/practicals & exams for about 2 months.Thereafter i can again devote around 3-4 hours after college for about
2 months-again my final year project ,presentations & exams will come in the way for 2-2.5 months.Thereafter there will be a 2 months break(where i can study 6-7 hours daily) before joining my job which incidentally is in a software company as an ASE.Will it be enough to land me in a higher paying job (provided ofcourse i carry out a few projects on my own )?
Jesus Angeles
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Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 2061
Originally posted by Ed Stevens:
OK! How long do you think it takes someone to learn Java ,HTML,Javascript & JSP/Servlets-J2EE ?How long did it take you?I know the answer will vary person to person-but you have been working amidst a number of programmers around-what is your perception?


Yes, this is per person basis. But just to let you know that you CAN do it, even starting without java knowledge, I will tell you my history.

All these below happened before I got a java job. All these, I did while having another non-java full time job, so I did all these after work and on weekends.

1. dead zero on java, i know nothing on java, I read Java 2 in 21 days (the version back then). maybe 40 hrs to read it
2. SCJP 1.4. I used Kathy Sierra's book. Maybe 6 weeks, including passing the exam. Searched web for mock exams.
3. SCWCD older version. Head First JSP AND SERVLETS. Maybe 8 weeks, including passing the exam. Searched web for mock exams.
4. SCBCD. EJB 3 by Haefel/Burke. Maybe 6 weeks, including passing the exam. Searched web for mock exams.
5. SCDJWS. Lots of books. Maybe 4 months, including passing the exam. Searched web for mock exams.

All these practically covers the entire j2ee (jsp/servlet,ejb,web services), except (if it is indeed part of j2ee) the portlets and jsf.

Right now,luckily, I havent been asked to do portlets yet, but I think soon I will do jsf.
Ed Stevens
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Joined: May 06, 2008
Posts: 38
Originally posted by Jesus Angeles:



1. dead zero on java, i know nothing on java, I read Java 2 in 21 days (the version back then). maybe 40 hrs to read it
2. SCJP 1.4. I used Kathy Sierra's book. Maybe 6 weeks, including passing the exam. Searched web for mock exams.
3. SCWCD older version. Head First JSP AND SERVLETS. Maybe 8 weeks, including passing the exam. Searched web for mock exams.
4. SCBCD. EJB 3 by Haefel/Burke. Maybe 6 weeks, including passing the exam. Searched web for mock exams.
5. SCDJWS. Lots of books. Maybe 4 months, including passing the exam. Searched web for mock exams.

All these practically covers the entire j2ee (jsp/servlet,ejb,web services), except (if it is indeed part of j2ee) the portlets and jsf.

Right now,luckily, I havent been asked to do portlets yet, but I think soon I will do jsf.


You did work really hard ,i guess one needs to, if one has to survive the competition today.My future employers will provide about 4-5 months of training-if i flunk the test on joining...i don't want to go under their training programme (salary/stipend will be low).So,i want to know:
Did you take part in Open source & Live projects?
or did you work on other projects ?
Also how much time did HTML & JScripts take?
THANKS..
Ed Stevens
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Joined: May 06, 2008
Posts: 38
ok i get it ,you managed to cover entire JSP & The certification in about 8 weeks itself..
Eric Pascarello
author
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Joined: Nov 08, 2001
Posts: 15376
    
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No company uses ASP anymore unless they are maintaining some legacy applications. Most companies use ASP.NET and ASP and ASP.NET are very different.

Eric
Jesus Angeles
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Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 2061
Originally posted by Ed Stevens:


You did work really hard ,i guess one needs to, if one has to survive the competition today.My future employers will provide about 4-5 months of training-if i flunk the test on joining...i don't want to go under their training programme (salary/stipend will be low).So,i want to know:
Did you take part in Open source & Live projects?
or did you work on other projects ?
Also how much time did HTML & JScripts take?
THANKS..


I managed to complete the whole track I mentioned, up to SCDJWS, with just basic HTML and javascript knowledge.

But when your work is coming up soon, I suggest that you study them further, as front-ends usually needs a little more javascript.

I did not join any open source or live projects.

Hands on is a 'must' in order to tackle those worries and insecurity on the 'first task at work' or 'first day at work'. With just knowledge, you might get stuck somewhere. With hands on, it will be natural for you. I agree definitely to do like, personal applications, open source projects, etc. to have that 'hands on' exposure.

One more thing that is great, is that books has examples. That is already there for you to play and do handson with. Do them. Run their examples, revise them just to play with them, etc.

As a matter of fact, hands on is one of my preparation steps for my certification exams. You have few seconds to answer the question. If you had handson, it will be very quick for you to get the answer.
[ July 09, 2008: Message edited by: Jesus Angeles ]
 
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