Win a copy of Design for the Mind this week in the Design forum!
  • Post Reply
  • Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic

Critics of the Agile Movement

 
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand
Posts: 3404
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Bob,
Who would be the one/two critics of the Agile Movement that would make you sit up and take notice of their criticisms ?
I notice as time passes the numbers seem to be getting fewer and the term , Agile or Extreme, at least (if not the entire methodology), seems to be adopted now.
(Sorry if this question doesn't relate to the book reviewed.)
regards
 
Ilja Preuss
author
Sheriff
Posts: 14112
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The question does even less relate to this forum...
Moving to the Process forum.
Bob, you are of course invited to answer posts in that (and the other forums), too!
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This book seems to negate the idea that XP has conquered the world:
Extreme Programming Refactored: The Case Against XP

"Any one [XP] practice doesn�t stand well on its own (with the possible exception of testing). They require the other practices to keep them in balance.� � Kent Beck, Extreme Programming Explained, (Chapter 11)
�Well, from my experience, most teams that say they're doing XP don't actually do the practices.� � Alistair Cockburn, http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?XpAndTheCmm
�Houston, we have a problem.� � Jim Lovell, Apollo 13
Extreme Programming Refactored: The Case Against XP (featuring Songs of the Extremos) takes a satirical look at the increasingly hyped Extreme Programming methodology. It explores some quite astonishing Extremo quotes that have typified the XP approach � quotes such as, �XPers are not afraid of oral documentation,� �Schedule is the customer�s problem,� �Dependencies between requirements are more a matter of fear than reality� and �Concentration is the Enemy.�
In between the chuckles, though, there is a serious analysis of XP�s many flaws. The authors also examine C3, the first XP project, whose team (most of whom went on to get XP book deals shortly before C3�s cancellation) described themselves as �the best team on the face of the Earth�. (In a later chapter, the authors also note that one problem which can affect pair programmers is overconfidence � or is that �eXcessive courage�?). The authors examine whether the problems that led to C3�s �inexplicable� cancellation could also afflict present-day XP projects.
In the final chapter (Refactoring XP) Matt and Doug suggest some ways of achieving the agile goals of XP using some XP practices (used in moderation) combined with other, less risk-laden methods.
 
Ilja Preuss
author
Sheriff
Posts: 14112
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Ron Jeffries has a review of that book at http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/books20030904.htm
I didn't read it yet, but from what I've read at the authors website, I gather that they do have a quite distorted view of XP.
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Whenever I see anyone respond to criticism of x with "you just don't understand x," I have to laugh. Maybe they understand it too well!!!
 
Ilja Preuss
author
Sheriff
Posts: 14112
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Whenever I see anyone respond to criticism of x with "you just don't understand x," I have to laugh. Maybe they understand it too well!!!

Maybe.
On the other hand, maybe if someone also explains in detail *where* we seem to misunderstand, we should first listen before rebuffing the critique. He might well have something to say. Maybe.
 
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand
Posts: 3404
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
It's a pity Bob Martin missed this post. He must have come up against quite a few critics.
Converted some too ?
regards
 
Robert Martin
Author
Ranch Hand
Posts: 76
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Bob,
Who would be the one/two critics of the Agile Movement that would make you sit up and take notice of their criticisms ?
I notice as time passes the numbers seem to be getting fewer and the term , Agile or Extreme, at least (if not the entire methodology), seems to be adopted now.
(Sorry if this question doesn't relate to the book reviewed.)
regards

Pete McBreen is a pretty sincere and honest critic.
As for the "XP Refactored" book -- well -- Whatever.
 
Robert Martin
Author
Ranch Hand
Posts: 76
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Whenever I see anyone respond to criticism of x with "you just don't understand x," I have to laugh. Maybe they understand it too well!!!

However, in this particular case, the authors do not understand it at all.
IMHO.
 
Robert Martin
Author
Ranch Hand
Posts: 76
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
It's a pity Bob Martin missed this post. He must have come up against quite a few critics.
Converted some too ?
regards

More than a few.
I don't mind honest criticism. There is no perfect process. I manage to convince some people that XP can help them, and some people manage to convince me that they don't need it. That's fine.
What galls me is criticism from ignorance. There's just way too much of that.
 
HS Thomas
Ranch Hand
Posts: 3404
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The Good and bad of :
Extreme Programming refactored
"For more valuable discussion of the limitations of XP and what to do about them, I would recommend either Pete McBreen's Questioning Extreme Programming, or Barry Boehm and Richard Turner's Balancing Agility and Discipline".
regards
[ September 15, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
 
  • Post Reply
  • Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic