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Implementation Patterns - What do you think about SCJD?

Darya Akbari
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Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1855
Hi Kent,

what do you think of Sun's Certified Java Developer (SCJD) certificate? It's full of implementation patterns. The point was to create social software, software which was comfortable to read and handle by your team.

What do you think about SCJD? Is it in contrast to your implementation patterns?


SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD
Darya Akbari
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Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1855
Can you think of following your implementation patterns (or better coding standards) and still failing SCJD? Even the failure to indent properly can mean the difference between passing and failing the exam.
Ilja Preuss
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Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 14112
I neither know a lot about SCJD nor Kent's book, so take the following with a grain of salt...

Anyway, I don't expect Kent's book to send the message "this is the way you should code". Rather, I expect it to say something along the lines of "this is what I'm doing and find valuable. Read it, try what you find reasonable and reflect on what you want to adopt, and what you might want to adapt to suit your needs."

To the amount that the SCJD actually "forces" you to accept a general standard that every single developer should adhere to, I hope that would really be in conflict with the intent of the Implementation Patterns book...
[ December 21, 2007: Message edited by: Ilja Preuss ]

The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny - it is the light that guides your way. - Heraclitus
Darya Akbari
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Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1855
Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:
"this is what I'm doing and find valuable..."


That's exactly where I've a problem with . It should never be "I", it always should be "We".
Ilja Preuss
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Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 14112
Originally posted by Darya Akbari:


That's exactly where I've a problem with . It should never be "I", it always should be "We".


I was talking about Kent sharing his personal experience with us. I am not sure what 'we' you would expect from a book that is written by a single author...
Kent Beck
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 45
Darya,

I don't know anything about the SCJD program, so I can't comment based on any experience.

Regards,

Kent Beck
Three Rivers Institute


Author of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0596007434/ref=jranch-20" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">JUnit Pocket Guide</a>
Darya Akbari
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Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1855
Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:
I was talking about Kent sharing his personal experience with us. I am not sure what 'we' you would expect from a book that is written by a single author...


My point about I and We is that there is one person (Kent) who presents his coding standards vs. a group of experts (SCJD) who stay behind Sun's Java code conventions. I generally prefer group efforts over single person efforts simply because of the social aspect.

By the way, I wish all of you merry Christmas .
Gian Franco
blacksmith
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Joined: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 977
Merry Christmas

Gian

p.s.

I don't follow this thread anymore...but I had the distinct impression that Implementation Patterns is not about coding standards, so there are not two bodies of knowledge (K.Beck vs SCJD experts) competing against each other...they are complementary.


"Eppur si muove!"
Ilja Preuss
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Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 14112
Originally posted by Darya Akbari:

My point about I and We is that there is one person (Kent) who presents his coding standards vs. a group of experts (SCJD) who stay behind Sun's Java code conventions. I generally prefer group efforts over single person efforts simply because of the social aspect.


Without having read the book yet, I'd expect it to be about Kent's *thoughts* on how to communicate in code and why. I expect to be able to relate to those thoughts, and make those techniques I find adequate my own (or my team's), and to adapt them where I find that they need adaption, or where other's thoughts seem more convincing (and do so with confidence, because I understand why Kent formulated a pattern in a specific way).

I expect that to be much more valuable to me than a standard that just tells me what to do and that I'm expected to follow without questioning, no matter how many people worked on it. I'm not sure whether the standard that seems to be part of the SCJD matches that latter description.

It goes without saying that your mileage may vary, of course.
Darya Akbari
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Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1855
Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:
Without having read the book yet, I'd expect it to be about Kent's *thoughts* on how to communicate in code and why ...


A big part of SCJD is about coding standards or code conventions or implementation patterns as Kent calls them. As far as I know SCJD's coding standards are no IEEE standard or the like. The first time I met Sun's coding standards was when I read Kathy Sierra's Sun Certified Programmer & Developer for Java 2 Study Guide.

I'm a bit surprised that Kent does not know Sun's SCJD. I would be even more surprised when he does not know Sun's Java code conventions which are a big part of SCJD .

Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:
I expect that to be much more valuable to me than a standard that just tells me what to do and that I'm expected to follow without questioning, no matter how many people worked on it. I'm not sure whether the standard that seems to be part of the SCJD matches that latter description.


Why? What is wrong with a standard? People behind standards are experts in their fields. You have the same freedom for adaption with a standard as you have following one person's approach.

Anyway I haven't read Kent's book either and wait for the copy I won. Maybe it's all nonsense what I'm saying .
Ilja Preuss
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Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 14112
Originally posted by Darya Akbari:
Why? What is wrong with a standard?


I don't see anything wrong with a standard in general. For example I see a lot of value in having all classes start with a capital letter in all Java code I could possibly even come in contact with.

Other things, such as indentations styles, are so dependent on context, that to me it simply doesn't make sense to have one general standard. Teams certainly should have standards for those, too, but they should own them, and adapt them to their needs, probably guided by general *suggestions*.

As I said, I don't know what the SCJD standard comes closer to.

People behind standards are experts in their fields.


Well, they aren't experts for my project or my team, so they certainly aren't qualified to tell us what's the best standard for us.

Again, that's not to say that I'm not listening to well reasoned arguments.

You have the same freedom for adaption with a standard as you have following one person's approach.


Yes, I always have. It's only that I expect Kent's book to tell me much more about his *reasons* of choosing one approach over the other, so that I'm in a much better position to decide for myself.


Anyway I haven't read Kent's book either and wait for the copy I won. Maybe it's all nonsense what I'm saying


I'm sure it's not all nonsense. Anyway, I'd be interested to hear from you again when you read the book!
 
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