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Your naming policy is flagrantly unfair

Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
I just wanted to bring to your attention that there are many cultures in the world with names that don't conform to your format of "Given name" first and "Familiy name" second.
I really resent the fact that I am being forced to reverse the order of my name in order to join JavaRanch. Imagine someone with the name of "John Smith" is being forced to be called "Smith John" on the Ranch?
My name may not be important to you but it is very important to me.
Kuang ZhiZhao
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Exactly
Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9046
    
  10
Some people register as
FamilyName,
GivenName
The order of the names is not a problem. But you must register with the two names separated by a space.


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Ajith Kallambella
Sheriff

Joined: Mar 17, 2000
Posts: 5782
The JavaRanch software doesn't care if you swapped your first name with the last name. It is not so intelligent
The rule says your name should have two parts. You are free to chose your first name and last name.
[This message has been edited by Ajith Kallambella (edited October 24, 2001).]


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Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
I totally agree with all of you and I noticed that there are people on the ranch not following your policy. But before an user can register, one has to agree to "For your user name, use a first name, space and a last name" .
Are you saying that people should just ignore your official policy? Then what is the point of displaying that in big block letters?

Kuang ZhiZhao
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
What we are saying is that you can put your last name as the first entry if you want, but everyone will probably call you by your last name then.
The naming policy is there for several reasons. One is to promote a professional environment. But also to help set the ground rules for being polite to each other. If we don't KNOW which is your first or your last - how can we use them correctly. The policy just says that we are going to treat the first name listed as your first name, whether it is or not.
Otherwise I would have to go around saying "Cindy Glass - Cindy is my first name" all the time.

"JavaRanch, where the deer and the Certified play" - David O'Meara
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
PS: You might consider this a case of "When in Rome - do as the Romans do".
This is an American website. Amazingly we follow American customs and traditions.
Paul Stevens
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 17, 2001
Posts: 2823
The amazing thing you are a relatively new poster and posted in the right forum.
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Cindy,
We should all learn to tolerate each other. Bigotry has no place in our society.

Kuang ZhiZhao
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
Actually, following an American custom is NOT really bigotry. If you don't LIKE our customs (does that make YOU bigoted?) then use a fake name. We just ask that you follow the simple rules.
Tevoc Roux
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 15, 2001
Posts: 9
Kuang or ZhiZhao whichever...If you are upset about the naming convention you have a chance to display your name however you choose in your signature at the bottom of each post. However, I notice that you display it exactly as your screen name? I wonder why?
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20586
    ∞

Take a look at http://www.javaranch.com/name.jsp
Marilyn, I don't like the last name, comma, space, first name thing. I've been disabling accounts with commas.
I think we have very few rules here, and this is the only one that I really emphasize.
It is important to me that folks follow this rule.

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Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by Kuang ZhiZhao2:
I really resent the fact that I am being forced to reverse the order of my name in order to join JavaRanch. Imagine someone with the name of "John Smith" is being forced to be called "Smith John" on the Ranch?
Notice that it says first name followed by last name. It does not mention given name or family name. First name is the name that comes first. Last name is the name that comes last. If your family name comes first then put it first. If your family name comes last then put it last. No one will caare. Just be aware that if you enter your name as "Smith John" everyone is going to call you "Smith".
But this is an American web site running on American web servers and it is owned by an American. Even the format of the site is of the American West. Why would anyone "resent" having to play along with American rules? No one is forcing you to use this site. There are many other sites you can visit and use which probably wouldn't care if you registered as "Hot Java Programmer" or "GI Joe". We do care because we want a professional site.


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Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Bartenders, This is a Java web-site. Would you please keep it that way. If you feel compelled to express your personal view on a certain way of life, feel free to join the Meaningless Drivel forum. Don't turn this into a political discussion. People come here to learn more about Java, not your interpretation of a certain way of life.
Kuang raised a valid point. If you don't agree with it, fine! Just try to deal with it in a professional and matured way. Maybe a culture sensitivity workshop may help.
Keith
Fei Ng
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 26, 2000
Posts: 1242
I like the naming policy. My vote.
and my name can't fit it right.
but like it.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
Keith, Kuang ZhiZhao's "valid point" that you refer to is a simple misunderstanding. "Kuang ZhiZhao" and "ZhiZhao Kuang" are both equally valid names are far as JavaRanch is concerned. Kuang ZhiZhao may use whichever he/she prefers. If Kuang ZhiZhao wold prefer to be referred to as "Kuang", he/she may sign that name at the bottom of the post, and then we'll know what he/she prefers. There is nothing insensitive about the policy - only in the assumptions that people make when reading the name. The simple fact is that whatever Kuang ZhiZhao writes for a name, some people in the world (like most Westerners) will assume that the first name is how they would prefer to be addressed, and others (many Asians, for example) will assume that the last name is how they prefer to be addressed. Unless you indicate otherwise, as Justin suggested.
- Jim (who has occasionally been called "Yingst" by people who don't know any better, but has somehow survived.)
[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited October 25, 2001).]


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Marilyn de Queiroz
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 22, 2000
Posts: 9046
    
  10
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
But this is an American web site running on American web servers and it is owned by an American.

Whether it is run by an American, by an Englishman, or by a German is irrelevant. The point is that the owner of the site has requested that you register with a firstName a space a lastName. Depending on your culture, your last name may be thought to be your first name by the person reading it. Since the world has different cultures, there is nothing we can do about that. You can help people call you by your preferred name by signing your posts. You can even have a "signature on file" (see Options where you create your posts).
Michael Bruesch
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 23, 2001
Posts: 158
Well this thread is completely ridiculous. If JavaRanch told me to name myself "DipStick Jones" and to sign all my posts as "Skeeter" I'd do it. And I'd still try to post quality answers to people's questions. If I want to use this wonderful site, I'll do what they ask me to do, a small price to pay. After all, it is their site, and if I didn't like it, I'd not use the site. How hard is that?
My 2 Cents,
Skeeter.....I mean Mike


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Guennadiy VANIN
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 30, 2001
Posts: 898
I just wanted to add to Cindy's

PS: You might consider this a case of "When in Rome - do as the Romans do".

that it is, to my knowledge, is quite intercultural, i.e. common, i.e. abstract superclass, that is not mutable.
Then I think it is a technical problem. I think in future they will find fun permitting registration in heirogliephs...
Any introduction to Java says about it ....
Shruti Agarwal
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Posts: 4
I agree with Mike Bruesch that this thread is ridiculous. We are already in the 21st Century and yet, some people are still firmly stuck in their 19th Century mindset. I still remember the days when the "whites only" exclusive clubs were ubiquitous. I am sure people at the time would have said the same thing, "If you don't like it here, you can get out" (or, for some people, they could not even get in). They didn't think it was either insensitive or discriminatory.
I don't see how it is a professional, or even acceptable, behavior to tell people that their real name may not look professional enough. This is ridiculous. Maybe we should change the name of this place to "JavaRanch where your real name may not look professional enough".
Naruki
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 29, 2001
Posts: 3
He he he. There have been a couple of trolls on this thread, and several indignant, irate, and highly vocal dupes, as well. They all are very good at calling others racist while ignoring the delicious irony of their own racist remarks.
That being said, perhaps people like "Guest" will stop trying to fan the flames and start thinking reasonably and logically for a change.
Do you call Java racist because it tries to enforce rules? That's absurd, yes?
Do you call governments racist because they make murder and other crimes illegal? Of course not.
Then why do you call someone else racist for having policies in place to make things go smoothly? That, as Spock says, does not compute.
In my travels, I was often in situations where I had to list my given name last and my surname first, which is the opposite of my native culture's custom.
Far more than that, I had to obey laws and customs that were utterly foreign to me. Did I cry "racist!" every time I had to bow to my boss? Heck no! Because I'm not an idiot.
When I was in Japan, I tried to behave in a manner suited to the customs of that country. I actually had quite a good time there, too.
When I was in Spain, I closed my eyes and prayed that the cab driver would not get me killed. It seems to have worked. But I still managed to obey customs that were not my own without too much difficulty, and I never bore any ill feelings towards my hosts.
Now, if you want to be professional, you will realize what the customs are in this board and decide if you can follow them in order to benefit.
I suspect that one's name order being reversed is not too large a burden. Just ask Yoko Ono, or, should I say, Ono Yoko?
paul wheaton
Trailboss

Joined: Dec 14, 1998
Posts: 20586
    ∞

There are a lot of different Java sites with forums. I have a particular vision of how I would like to see forums run, so I did it with my forums. I think the results have been quite good. A lot of folks like the recipe we have here.
There are other sites that use a different recipe and it sounds like those sites would be a better fit for some folks.
I suppose that if an individaul were certain that my ideas suck, and the ideas on the other sites suck, and their idea is the kinf of all ideas, they can set up their own site and see the crowds come and experience their improved thinking.
In the mean time, I have read nothing here that changes my mind.
Paul Anilprem
Enthuware Software Support
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 23, 2000
Posts: 3308
    
    7
I agree with Paul Wheaton on this. Long back I opposed the naming policy but very soon I started realizing the importance of it.
One suggestion I would like to make is to generate an error page when sombody tries to register without proper name. Another one is to allow having more than 2 worded named because 2 worded names get used up very fast. And the people have to append "1" or "2" as in "John Doe1" etc.
Kuang ZhiZhao2, I agree with your point too that different cultures have different naming styles. But I have yet to see a culture where people only have one worded name. They may have 2, 3 or (in Southern parts of India) even 4!
Anyway, I am curious to know your real name as it is difficult for me to imagine it not fitting into the 2+ word format.

-Paul


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Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
We do allow more than two names, actually - we should probably update the explanation to clarify that two names is the minumum; additional names or initials are OK as well.
Like Paul Anil, I didn't particularly agree with the name policy originally either, but I now agree that it helps the overall tone of the site.
[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited November 05, 2001).]
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
I think that we should update the UBB software (or go with Jive) and then hack the software to suit our needs. It isn't as if we update the software constantly. And there are enough of us who are Perl gurus that we can hack UBB to do whatever we need.
Roseanne Zhang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 14, 2000
Posts: 1953
We had an "xxx Killers" obvious fake and offensive name who tried to join our SCJD Study Group Project Team. I don't want dealing with Killers, and rejected him.
I saw an "Adolf Hitler" posted somewhere, and absolutely refused to answer his/her questions. Another one was a "supergod".
That is kind of my unofficial naming policy.

Thanks!
Roseanne
Join our SCJD Study Group when certified

Thomas Whalen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 123
the person that expressed his/her/he-she (hehe) displeasure with this very simple naming policy is the probably the same type of person that goes into the Hacking Chat Room on the Yahoo! website, yet can't answer simple computing questions like "how do I cut and paste", or the person who goes into the Linux chat room and wins every OS argument by saying that "Linux has more free (albeit crappy) apps than Windows". just sign your name -- i don't care, close your eyes type lots of characters, hit space, type lots of characters, hit ENTER, you're done. voila! jeez


if you don't know, then ask. if you do know, then share. love is knowledge.
Guennadiy VANIN
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 30, 2001
Posts: 898
What is bad in that? hitting keys. It is what all Internet abt, I cannot say that someone is solving here serious problems or that ratio (time+effort)/usefullness is optimal. Just show-off
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
Originally posted by G Vanin:
I cannot say that someone is solving here serious problems
Some people might consider their careers to be serious.

[This message has been edited by Thomas Paul (edited November 14, 2001).]
Guennadiy VANIN
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 30, 2001
Posts: 898
I think it is unfair but not blatantly
faisal mahmood
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 30, 2000
Posts: 349
Originally posted by Kuang ZhiZhao2:
But before an user can register, one has to agree to "For your user name, use a first name, space and a last name" .

Where does middle name go?
Faisal
J.D. Walker
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 28, 2002
Posts: 7
For obvious fake names, the naming policy is a good thing, but a person's name is a part of their identity. To dictate to someone how their name must be represented, and have a 'take it or leave it' type of attitude doesn't seem very professional to me.
Of course, I *am* an American, so my name *does* fall into the Firstname, Lastname pattern, even when I do use my first and middle initials as my first name, so the naming policy doesn't really affect me. *shrug* just my opinion...I love the site and am in the process of trying to teach myself Java. It is fun, and they tell me I'm finding it easy because I'm a C++ programmer. Thanks for a good site.
Barry Gaunt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Posts: 7729
I can't see any problem if people "sign" their
posts with the name with which they would like
to be addressed. Sometimes it's not so clear from
the displayed name which is the "socially correct" handle.
-Barry (also known as "Hey you there!")


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J.D. Walker
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 28, 2002
Posts: 7
Interesting. You didn't address my point, but you did provide a workaround. I like the way you're thinking about it.
Barry Gaunt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Posts: 7729
JayDee, Sorry I am prone to ramble...
For instance, I have also observed that many immigrants to America or other european countries very quickly change their names to the "european" form. I don't think it happens the other way around so very often.
-Barry (also known as BeeEffGee)
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 25, 2000
Posts: 7292

Originally posted by J.D. Walker:
(A) person's name is a part of their identity. To dictate to someone how their name must be represented, and have a 'take it or leave it' type of attitude doesn't seem very professional to me.

What would you suggest?
J.D. Walker
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 28, 2002
Posts: 7
Originally posted by Michael Ernest:

What would you suggest?

Well, in the first case, if someone's posting something like Ben Dover, or Les Bian, or Dick Hurtz...sanction away..those are obvious attempts at humor and not in line with the stated goal of being professional.
The other part of my suggestion is a change in viewpoint. I don't see a strict regulation of how people's names are formulated (providing it is some form of their real name) to add professionalism.
I'm a case in point. Under your policy, I could conceivably be sanctioned because I listed my first name as J.D. rather than Jay. How does that actually add to the professional air? It doesn't. I would venture to assert that me listing my name as J.D. even adds to the professional air because the fact that my name is Jay Walker, something subject to ridicule for being amusing, isn't right up in everyone's face every time I post.
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 29, 2000
Posts: 8521
Soooooooo . . .
What would you suggest?
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 05, 2000
Posts: 13974
This is just silly. The owner of the site wants first name - last name. Anyone who is uncomfortable with following the guideline can use the Sun forums. We have had this guideline for 2 years so we are unlikely to change it now.
Dave Vick
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 10, 2001
Posts: 3244
On a realted but not very pertinent note... my brother once had a friend in high school whos name was Les Waite. I'm fairly sure it was Less too, not Lestor or something else. The best thing was that he worked at a McDonalds. We were in a different McDonalds once that had a really long line, after a few minutes I told my brother and Les that we should have gone to the other McDonalds becasue they had 'Les Waite'. Get it...?? Les Waite..... less wait.....
He did give me credit with making the first orginal joke on his name in quite a few years.


Dave
 
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