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Certification addicition? Javaranch is bad for your soul!

Morgan Bath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 196
Is there a known disorder where you suddenly want to win books so that you have an excuse to take another certification?
Id pretty much decided to take a few months off certifications and play some counter strike or do something radical like sleep, and then I get an email about book promotions. All of a sudden I realise I have to pass the 484 exam. I mean I absolutely MUST have that certification. I just know I wont survive without it!
The only thing I have to do first, is find out what the hell 484 certification is.... I mean it must be something right? There is a book about it apparantly


Morgan
SCJP (1.4), SCJD (1.4), SCWCD (1.3), SCBCD (1.3)
Kishore Dandu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Simply saying it is IBMs test for J2EE knowledge.
Instead of Sun milking us in 2 different ways, they are gonna milk in a single test.


Kishore
SCJP, blog
bas duijzings
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 07, 2004
Posts: 83
i agree, that it is bad for the soul.
But why then are you listing you certifications if you oppose


have a nice one
Morgan Bath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 196
My name is Morgan and i am a cert-aholic
Kobus Prinsloo
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 3
Do these certifications really make a difference in your life?
I have been considering to do the J2EE certification, but I am not sure if it is really worth it.
Re,
Kobus
Vishwa Kumba
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 1064
Originally posted by Kobus Prinsloo:
Do these certifications really make a difference in your life?

Yes, a small but significant difference. It helps me console myself.
"It is not me or my face or my skillset, but the bad job market that is not getting me a good job and a good pay!".
sunitha reghu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
Hi Morgan,
According to my clock 24 hours make one day. what abt yours?
Originally posted by Morgan Bath:
My name is Morgan and i am a cert-aholic
Vishwa Kumba
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 1064
I guess the line between a Cert-Aholic and a Cert-Addict is very thin. Of late, due to the bad market it's become a bit infectious as well.I imagine both problems can be treated with a busy interesting job and a wonderful partner/family!
Cheers!
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

I imagine both problems can be treated with a busy interesting job and a wonderful partner/family!

This wont solve the problems, and they will only make the case more worst.
When you are getting more busy, and still you need to get those certs, you will find less and less time to be with your family. If you try to give more time to your family, you will sleep less and less.
Certs. and qualifications are nearly a MUST nowadays, even the job notices do not mention that. In my company, whenever there are job vacancies, there are more than 1000 people to apply. And those with less certs, and less qualifications (such as without a Master) will be out directly in the 1st scanning. Thus, you even dont have the chance for the interviews or written tests.
Nick


SCJP 1.2, OCP 9i DBA, SCWCD 1.3, SCJP 1.4 (SAI), SCJD 1.4, SCWCD 1.4 (Beta), ICED (IBM 287, IBM 484, IBM 486), SCMAD 1.0 (Beta), SCBCD 1.3, ICSD (IBM 288), ICDBA (IBM 700, IBM 701), SCDJWS, ICSD (IBM 348), OCP 10g DBA (Beta), SCJP 5.0 (Beta), SCJA 1.0 (Beta), MCP(70-270), SCBCD 5.0 (Beta), SCJP 6.0, SCEA for JEE5 (in progress)
Vishwa Kumba
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 1064
Nicholas,
Our expections of the certifications is certainly more, though not everybody enjoys the benefit of a new job and a good pay hike.I also encourage my colleagues here to go for the certification and I am also working on my certifications.If there wasn't any benefit from certs, I wouldn't invest so much time, effort and money.My respect for the certified people is no less. I was only kidding about the statements in the above posts by Morgan and Sunitha.
I agree with you on the shortlisting of the CVs. CVs with Certifications stand a better chance.
[ May 06, 2004: Message edited by: Vishwa Kumba ]
sunitha reghu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
Originally posted by Nicholas Cheung:

This wont solve the problems, and they will only make the case more worst.
When you are getting more busy, and still you need to get those certs, you will find less and less time to be with your family. If you try to give more time to your family, you will sleep less and less.
Certs. and qualifications are nearly a MUST nowadays, even the job notices do not mention that. In my company, whenever there are job vacancies, there are more than 1000 people to apply. And those with less certs, and less qualifications (such as without a Master) will be out directly in the 1st scanning. Thus, you even dont have the chance for the interviews or written tests.
Nick

So are you saying experience wont count?. The HR just look the resume with certifications. geee.
I think experince counts more than certifications
Jim Bracks
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 42
I think experince counts more than certifications

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How do you compare a MS with SCJP,SCJD,SCWCD,SCBCD certifications to a person who has 2 years of IT experience and a BCS ?
sunitha reghu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
Suppose there is a job and requirements are bs with two years. Do you think
a person with MS with abcdefghi certifications will have more chance than bs with two years?.
Jim Bracks
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 04, 2004
Posts: 42
Suppose there is a job and requirements are bs with two years. Do you think
a person with MS with abcdefghi certifications will have more chance than bs with two years?.


Believe me I know many ppl who are in the industry since the last two yrs
and have never worked with EJB or other advance Api's in java.
Even their knowledge of servlets and jsp ,Jdbc etc is very ordinary (just in time)
Almost no knowlede of processes or patterns(only basic MVC). WE CALL them copy, cut, pastes.
SCJP,SCWCD.SCJD,SCBCD atleast show that you understand the basics and can build on it.
BTW way it takes about 2 yrears to achieve the above 4 certifations.( its NO joke) PLUS it shows that you have the ability and will to learn.
As far as jobs are concerned the biggest factor that gets you a job is your ability to make contacts and NETWORKING!!!
I will leave the disussion on degrees for a later time.
Kishore Dandu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
I have worked with people with these serverside certifications and kind of unproductive and not so efficient.
So, there are two sides to people with certifications.
sunitha reghu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
Originally posted by Jim Bracks:


Believe me I know many ppl who are in the industry since the last two yrs
and have never worked with EJB or other advance Api's in java.
Even their knowledge of servlets and jsp ,Jdbc etc is very ordinary (just in time)
Almost no knowlede of processes or patterns(only basic MVC). WE CALL them copy, cut, pastes.


It depends on projects the person worked for the last two years. copy,cut and paste is something different. A programmer should where to cut ,paste and copy. If he/she knows where to cut and copy then its fine. Some have very quick learning skills.
Originally posted by Jim Bracks:


BTW way it takes about 2 yrears to achieve the above 4 certifations.( its NO joke) PLUS it shows that you have the ability and will to learn.

i wont spent two years for four certifications. That is a waste of time.
instead of that i will involve in open source projects.

As far as jobs are concerned the biggest factor that gets you a job is your ability to make contacts and NETWORKING!!!
There you go and finally you agreed!!!
sleeeeeeeeeeeeeep
Mcgill Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 11, 2003
Posts: 178
Two years of experience may not be enough to get a JAVA job.
Another thing you have to answer interview questions about :
EJB,SERVLETS,JSP,PATTERNS etc.
here certs help.
Networking- contacts - Luck - Good_looks == JOB.


Regards
Mcgill
Marc Peabody
pie sneak
Sheriff

Joined: Feb 05, 2003
Posts: 4727

Certification is MY anti-drug.
SCJP is just techie PCP when it comes down to it.


A good workman is known by his tools.
Morgan Bath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 196
I got a masters degree, 13 years of experience ,7 of them in IT, certification falling out my ass, and Im a great dancer .... I have the CV from heaven and yet I dont have a job at this moment A guy I helped with a reference and a rewrite of his CV doesnt even know the difference between a JSP page and a JSP document and he is working as a J2EE web developer.
The man can't even dance!!!
So why do I go for certifications if it isnt helping? Its something to do I guess Beats going back to working as a school teacher *shudder*!
On the plus side, I have now seen every episode of star trek ever made
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

So are you saying experience wont count?. The HR just look the resume with certifications. geee.

The position is a junior programmer post. And thus, even fresh graduates are welcome.

I think experince counts more than certifications

YES. But how about if 2 people's skills are similar while they have similar background? Of course, if you have 10 years experiences, you wont border to get certs anymore, unless you need to have a more specialized certs, like CFA, etc.
Nick
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

How do you compare a MS with SCJP,SCJD,SCWCD,SCBCD certifications to a person who has 2 years of IT experience and a BCS ?

It is difficult to compare, but how about a person who got BSc with 1 year experiences together with many certs, comparing to another one who got BCs with 1 year experiences together with less certs.
After the interview, and written tests, if you decide these 2 candidates are your target, but you can employ only 1 of them, who will you choose?
Nick
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

I got a masters degree, 13 years of experience ,7 of them in IT, certification falling out my ass, and Im a great dancer

If I got 10+ years experiences, I wont border in IT certs. anymore, as you are supposed non-developer grade, rite? Thus, I even dont need to know how to write applications in detail, as I will focus more on management, and system analyst.

A guy I helped with a reference and a rewrite of his CV doesnt even know the difference between a JSP page and a JSP document and he is working as a J2EE web developer.

That's why I said, Certs, to me, is just a tool to increase the chance for attending the written tests and interviews. If you in fact know nothing about those areas, no matter how many certs. you have, it is useless.

So why do I go for certifications if it isnt helping? Its something to do I guess

For you, I really dont think how certs. can help you. Maybe you need a more specialized field of study, say, if you have shift to finanical areas, maybe you need a CFA, or if you have shift to accounting, you need ACCA, I dont think IT certs can really help you a lot in your case.
Nick
Shalbha Jindal
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 20, 2001
Posts: 20
Yes, the last 6 months have proven to be highly fruitful for me in respect to IT certifications. They are definitely gaining importance.
Thanks
Shalbha
vasu maj
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 12, 2001
Posts: 395
Sunitha, getting involved in an open source project sounds good to me. I have never considered it before.
Value of certifications lies in the preparation part, not the paper that you get IMHO. You are forced to read subjects that you wouldn't otherwise.
If you have 13 yrs exp in IT you should be having a pretty good network. Networking is the easiest way of landing in jobs. Try connecting with former colleagues, project managers etc.
Try teaching, I think is a lot of money in it. Companies pay a lot of money to train their employees. You should know how to project yourself as an experienced person in managing projects and should have avery good sense of humor. Most employees sleep during company sponsored training programs so if you know how to make them laugh and at the same time make them feel that you are teaching them something very important you will get good references for future training contracts from companies.
Good luck.
Vasu
[ May 07, 2004: Message edited by: vasu maj ]

What a wonderful world!
sunitha reghu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
Vasu,
Right now I dont have any intentions to change from my current title to
teaching. Regarding the value of certifications what you said is true. You will refer and will read also will memorize some stuff. I do have some certifications so I know. What i said in my previous post is that instead of a person spending two years certifications it will be better for that person to involve in open source projects. And its not my personal plan.
Kishore Dandu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Originally posted by vasu maj:
Sunitha, getting involved in an open source project sounds good to me. I have never considered it before.
Value of certifications lies in the preparation part, not the paper that you get IMHO. You are forced to read subjects that you wouldn't otherwise.
If you have 13 yrs exp in IT you should be having a pretty good network. Networking is the easiest way of landing in jobs. Try connecting with former colleagues, project managers etc.
Try teaching, I think is a lot of money in it. Companies pay a lot of money to train their employees. You should know how to project yourself as an experienced person in managing projects and should have avery good sense of humor. Most employees sleep during company sponsored training programs so if you know how to make them laugh and at the same time make them feel that you are teaching them something very important you will get good references for future training contracts from companies.
Good luck.
Vasu
[ May 07, 2004: Message edited by: vasu maj ]

If some one has 13 years that does not mean that the network he has created is in a position to help the candidate land in a job.
At least in the place where I am working now(dallas,USA); I have seen first hand that networking is only one of different things that can only take you to the doors of a firm. From there it is always a fight to end up with that position(since there are always multiple other candidates who are also being interviewed for that same position who came in through networking and other sources)
Morgan Bath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 16, 2004
Posts: 196
Originally posted by Nicholas Cheung:

For you, I really dont think how certs. can help you. Maybe you need a more specialized field of study, say, if you have shift to finanical areas, maybe you need a CFA, or if you have shift to accounting, you need ACCA, I dont think IT certs can really help you a lot in your case.
Nick


Who said I needed em? I just cant stop wanting them .... its like if they created a certification for fish juggling and released a free book on how to pass it, id be doing it! I cant stop! Help me .....
Christopher Arthur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 09, 2004
Posts: 149
Shudder...oh the only thing that keeps me from going back to school to get a phd is that I don't want to be a teaching assistant...I'm so sick of teaching...I hope these certs will prove useful...anyway I do feel like I know more about programming regardless..
Jeff Walker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 25, 2004
Posts: 116
Well, such honesty about certification value..I love it!
I agree, exactly why are we all getting these certs in a subject/version that will be out of date in 6 months? I have a masters in Comp.Sc. and a couple of undergrad technical degress not worth wiping my bum with, also got over 14 years in IT, all in development teams. I tried lower managament, worst part of my career. That's the problem with the less experienced developers, you guys think management is some sort of holy grail, "..after I get this Java job and a promotion thanks to my new cert, I'll try Team Leader and then Project Manager!" Well, you can have that. It's way overrated, So, getting back to certifications, since I like development but hate managing, what to do?..consulting. And I need to STAND OUT from the others. So, I do certs now.
dbala subramaniam
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 20, 2003
Posts: 73
Hi Folks
There are 2 types of Mindsets in People
1)If have Degree in Computer Science I know everything ,they are ready upgrade Latest developments - They are also not Upto the Market Requirments
2)People with or with out Computer BackGround do lot of Certifications
They thing everything know with Certifications which is not true
So my opinion experience and Certifications are both are must
Our IT field we need to Update everyday so Certifications get help to achieve this otherwise we won't study
I have seen people with certifications no knowledge
also have degree in Computer science not aware of latest developments.
so choice is yours???
Particularly those in Java - Sun Certifications are must
with regards
bala
Min Huang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 17, 2004
Posts: 100
I hear you Morgan. I am addicted as well. I had a whirlwind romance with SCJP and SCJD in the last 2 months and now I am hankering for more. I've already bought the voucher for BCD and I'm looking at books for the WCD.
Mainly its because I'm out of school and nobody will hire me for experience. I kept getting jealous (? is that the word?) seeing my friends work feverishly on their homework assignments while I sat here with nothing to do.
But those certs definitely help! I am getting more interviews for developer positions after SCJD (before nobody would even call me back). I say they are worth a lot for somebody who has just a BS and no exp.


SCJP 1.4, SCJD 1.4, SCBCD (Preparing!)
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
Experiences and qualifications (include degrees and certs) are equally important, while comparing two people with similar experiences and backgrounds.
In fact, if you think certifications mean nothing, so do a degree in certain sense. You spent time to study certs, but you know nothing, as well as you spent time to get a degree, but know nothing as well. The major difference is the time involved and $ incurred. The higher the degree you get, you know less and less in the computer science's world, as you will become more and more specialized in some areas than others. So, having a high degree does not mean certs. are less meaningful.

Particularly those in Java - Sun Certifications are must

I think this statement may not be accepted by some people, however, I am the one who is collecting SUN's certificates family.
But I do wish there are more and more beta exams or promotions on exams, so that we can acquire those certs. with a less cost.
Nick
Christopher Arthur
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 09, 2004
Posts: 149
Sometimes I wonder about how hard it would be to start one's own web business, relying on the strength of technical ability. Since no one will hire me lately, and since I believe that what I am learning with all these certs is useful, therfore I should theoretically be able to make some use of it all regardless of whether some "employer" is telling me what to code.

Chris
Jeff Walker
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 25, 2004
Posts: 116
Originally posted by Christopher Arthur:
Sometimes I wonder about how hard it would be to start one's own web business, relying on the strength of technical ability. Since no one will hire me lately, and since I believe that what I am learning with all these certs is useful, therfore I should theoretically be able to make some use of it all regardless of whether some "employer" is telling me what to code.

Chris


Chris, your point is well taken,
I too am unemployed right now. I thought of some webiste ideas and got myself a cheap domain name, but you need a special business idea to make money. Otherwise, your really just playing around with the technology until a job comes along. No harm in that though, plus potential employers like to see that you've kept busy while unemployed, it shows you haven't mentally 'lost it' and given up with a bad attitude.
Alan Wanwierd
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 624
From my personal viewpoint I find certifications a are a great way to focus learning. Its true that experience is the best teacher, but most projects tend to involve just a tiny fraction of the technologies they use. Studying for certifications can make you aware of other possible approaches and give you a wider understanding. In the IT industry these days, failure to stay aware of technology and up to speed with current techniques and products is unfortunately a sure way to end up unemployable. Certifications give a good framework for structuring this 'extra-curricular' study, and demonstrating commitment to self-improvement.

..also as someone without an IT degree (B.A. Music & Politics) My certifications are the only formal qualifications I have to back up my experiences. This was VITAL when dealing not with employers (who do look more at experience), but with Depertment of Immigration here in Australia who ignored years of experience and employer references and demanded to see bits of paper to PROVE I was a 'qualified' IT professional! (bloody bureacracy!).

..on a less altruistic and wholesome note once I complete my ICED certification I am up for a $1k Bonus and it helps demonstrate my commitment to my career (which wont do any harm when it comes to salary review due in a few weeks!)..

...and after all - if you employer pays for the exams... whats to lose?.. Certifications are certainly not going to do you any harm!
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subject: Certification addicition? Javaranch is bad for your soul!