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IBM vs. SUN

Hanna Habashy
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Joined: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: 532
Hi:
I want to know the differences between IBM certifications and SUN counterpart. If one did SCWCD, and/or SCBCD, doesn't he need to get the IBM J2EE? Can someone tell me want is the advantage of getting one or the other, or even both. Which one is more prestigious.
thanks


SCJD 1.4<br />SCJP 1.4<br />-----------------------------------<br />"With regard to excellence, it is not enough to know, but we must try to have and use it.<br />" Aristotle
Nicholas Cheung
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

I want to know the differences between IBM certifications and SUN counterpart.

The difference is, SUN basically is vendor independent cert., while IBM is not. It focus on how Java works on IBM WSAD, but SUN's focus on the issues that work on all platforms.

If one did SCWCD, and/or SCBCD, doesn't he need to get the IBM J2EE? Can someone tell me want is the advantage of getting one or the other, or even both. Which one is more prestigious.

They are not subsitutiable, as you cant tell IBM that since you passed SCWCD and SCBCD, so that you can waive the 484 exam.
Since you wont get any cert. after passing 484, you must pass 287 and 486 together in order to get ICED cert. But ICED focus on WSAD related stuffs, thus, the certs in fact are focus on different aspects.
Nick
[ May 06, 2004: Message edited by: Nicholas Cheung ]

SCJP 1.2, OCP 9i DBA, SCWCD 1.3, SCJP 1.4 (SAI), SCJD 1.4, SCWCD 1.4 (Beta), ICED (IBM 287, IBM 484, IBM 486), SCMAD 1.0 (Beta), SCBCD 1.3, ICSD (IBM 288), ICDBA (IBM 700, IBM 701), SCDJWS, ICSD (IBM 348), OCP 10g DBA (Beta), SCJP 5.0 (Beta), SCJA 1.0 (Beta), MCP(70-270), SCBCD 5.0 (Beta), SCJP 6.0, SCEA for JEE5 (in progress)
Vishwa Kumba
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Joined: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 1064
Nicholas,
Do we atleast get the score report signed by the relevant prometric center?...Does IBM store my results somewhere in their database which I can be access later?
The IBM J2EE exam 484...Is that completely vendor independent?...
[ May 06, 2004: Message edited by: Vishwa Kumba ]
Nicholas Cheung
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

Do we atleast get the score report signed by the relevant prometric center?

YES, you will receive a score report, just like SUN exams.

Does IBM store my results somewhere in their database which I can be access later?

NO. Unlike SUN's cert. manager, IBM does not have such cert. manager.
You have nowhere to check the data stored in IBM.

The IBM J2EE exam 484...Is that completely vendor independent?...

YES, however, you dont get any certs. If you need to get certified, you must pass OOAD/UML and WSAD exams.
We can either get ICED or nothing.
Nick
Vishwa Kumba
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Joined: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 1064
What if I loose the score report? ...I hope there is a way for me to obtain a duplicate from prometric :roll:
Nicholas Cheung
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

What if I loose the score report

In such case, you should check with Prometric to see whether they can help.
There is no CertManager for IBM to query the status.
Thus, you should be careful for your reports.
Nick
vasu maj
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Joined: Jul 12, 2001
Posts: 395
I think SCEA has a lot more importance and recognition although content wise they( 484 and SCEA) are comparable.
Vasu


What a wonderful world!
Vishwa Kumba
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 1064
Originally posted by vasu maj:
I think SCEA has a lot more importance and recognition although content wise they( 484 and SCEA) are comparable.
Vasu

I think the common areas of SCEA and IBM 484 are :
J2EE Architecture, EJB, Security, Connectivity(JMS, RMI-IIOP)
And the differences are :
SCEA: UML, GOF patterns, Internationalization, Messaging, EJB1.1, Protocols
IBM 484: Servlets/JSP, EJB2.0, Connectivity Services(JNDI, JMS, JAXP,JAAS, JDBC, RMI-IIOP) and Assembly/Deployment, J2EE Design patterns
What makes SCEA more challenging is that they also have an assignment to do.
SCEA is a certification while IBM 484 is part of the ICED certification.
Nicholas Cheung
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

SCEA is a certification while IBM 484 is part of the ICED certification

It depends on how you think.
SCEA in fact contains 3 tests, 310-051 for general J2EE and UML issues, the UML assignment, and the essay.
In addition, ICED also required UML knowledge on 486 test. I think the major difference is the J2EE version, as well as the assignment part.
Nick
Jeff Walker
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Joined: Apr 25, 2004
Posts: 116
Just my 2 cents worth..
I think Sun's are better, they are platform independent, IBM's aren't, I think. This Java/web stuff in general, is about independence, not platform lock-in. That's Microsft's old strategy; give out lots and lots of cert exams and flood the world with developers that end up promoting the platform they are qualified in.
What will you IBMers do if a great job comes up on the Weblogic platform, but your only ICED certified? I think a Sun certified candidate (SCWCD+SCBCD+SCEA) would beat you?
Kyle Brown
author
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Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3892
    
    5
I think you'd be wrong about saying an IBM certification would be worth less. IBM accounts for half of the J2EE market. People looking for WebSphere skills strongly value the IBM-specific knowledge the tests show. You do the math. You're comparing apples and oranges here.
Kyle


Kyle Brown, Author of Persistence in the Enterprise and Enterprise Java Programming with IBM Websphere, 2nd Edition
See my homepage at http://www.kyle-brown.com/ for other WebSphere information.
Nicholas Cheung
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

What will you IBMers do if a great job comes up on the Weblogic platform, but your only ICED certified? I think a Sun certified candidate (SCWCD+SCBCD+SCEA) would beat you?

This is an interesting issue. How about if we got both?
I totally agree with the point we should take *generic* exams instead of vendor-specific exams, becos the general knowledge can be applied to any vendor-specific products. But will we do better if we can pick the balance?
Another interesting point is, if you really need to decide to take a vendor specific cert, how will you choose it? You simply choose those that you are using currently, rite? You wont take WL cert while your are working with WSAD everyday. Thus, even if I took WL cert, it is of no help for my current job!
However, it is unfair to compare WL and WAS, or others like Oracle9iAS, JBoss, etc, as they are totally different things and focus on different aspects.
Nick
Eusebio Floriano
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Joined: Mar 07, 2004
Posts: 237
Originally posted by Nicholas Cheung:

However, it is unfair to compare WL and WAS, or others like Oracle9iAS, JBoss, etc, as they are totally different things and focus on different aspects.

By the way, is there any JBOSS�s cert available ?


SCJP 1.4 / 5.0 - SCBCD 1.3 - SCWCD 1.4 - IBM 484
Nicholas Cheung
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

is there any JBOSS�s cert available ?

YES. The title is JBoss Certified Consultant.
You may get more info from:
http://www.jboss.com/services/partners/certified
Nick
Ko Ko Naing
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Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
Mmm... never known that JBoss got such cert...


Co-author of SCMAD Exam Guide, Author of JMADPlus
SCJP1.2, CCNA, SCWCD1.4, SCBCD1.3, SCMAD1.0, SCJA1.0, SCJP6.0
Nicholas Cheung
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
The JBoss certifiate exam has been in the market for around 1 year, however, I dont think much people will try to get certified, as JBoss will not be the main stream of commercial application server.

It is good for testing, and learning new technologies, just like we usually use Jakarta Tomcat to play around with JSP/Servlet, but we will use large application server, like WAS, Oracle9iAS or WebLogic for our systems.

Nick
Serge Adzinets
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 166
Originally posted by Jeff Walker:
I think Sun's are better, they are platform independent, IBM's aren't, I think.


Considering IBM Enterprise Application Developer certification, 2 of 3 exams are vendor-neutral. 484 is about J2EE, while 486 is about OOAD and UML.


Best Regards,<br />Serge
Ramon Gill
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Joined: May 15, 2003
Posts: 344
Serge,
The Java Programming exam is also vendor neutral, so 3 of the 4 exams are in total.

Ray
Forrest Xu
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Joined: Nov 16, 2002
Posts: 92
I guess that ICED test is more difficult than SCWD,SCBD and SCEA.
IBM484 is more difficult than SCWD,SCBD.
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

I guess that ICED test is more difficult than SCWD,SCBD and SCEA.

It really really depends.

For IBM tests, all questions are MCs, and thus, even if you are not sure, or you are not familiar with certain questions, you can make a guess.

However, SCEA requires the UML/Enterprise design assignment, if you are not well-equipped with those technologies, it is not that easy to guess out a suitable design, and get pass in the exam.

But, if you have been already worked with J2EE application analysis and design, you may find it easy, as you do the design work, and draw UML diagrams daily. And you are never or seldom work with WSAD.


IBM484 is more difficult than SCWD,SCBD.

This also depends as well.

For SCWCD and SCBCD, since the whole exam focus on only 1 technology, you can expect that the exam questions will be very in depth.

However, although 484 covers lots of various technologies, it cant ask questions too deep. Otherwise, the pre-requisit of 484 should be SCBCD and SCWCD.

Nick
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
Honestly, except SCEA part II, I do feel that IBM exams are much more difficult that other exams.

Think about it:
For SCJP and SCBCD, Kathy and Berts had written 2 excellent books for us to prepare the exam.

For SCWCD, Mr. Hanumant did write a cool book SCWCD Exam Study Kit for 1.3, and this book is also useful to prepare for SCWCD 1.4 Servlet and Design Pattern part. For SCWCD 1.4 JSP part, Hans also writes a good book JavaServer Page 3rd edition which covers all knowledge we need in the test.

For SCJD, Max has given us his book SCJD with J2SE 1.4, which contains a sample for us to follow.

For SCMAD and SCDJWS, although there are no exam-specific books rite now, there are still lots of resources. Ko Ko is preparing the exam simulator for SCMAD, and Sathya and MZ provide their study notes for us. Richard's book on Web Services is also a good resource for preparation.

However, for IBM's exam, there are limited resources on the net.
The most frequently referred reference book is Howard's book for 287. I remember there is a book from MC Press as well for the test 285. The ICE tests are good, but you cant take them so many times. There are sometimes mock exams for 486, but it focus on conceptal questions, no UML diagram related questions at all.

Thus, it is not easy for us to prepare IBM's tests.

Nick
Billy Tsai
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Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1304
does one actually get the real world physical certificate(pretty sheet) from IBM or BEA after passing the certification examinations?
or just some electronice stuff that has no meaning and existence in real world


BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
Oracle Certified Master Java EE 5 Enterprise Architect
sunitha reghu
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Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
just some electronice stuff that has no meaning and existence in real world

do ibm publish certified persons name in their website?

may be they cutting costs?

Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
does one actually get the real world physical certificate(pretty sheet) from IBM or BEA after passing the certification examinations?
or just some electronice stuff that has no meaning and existence in real world

[ May 14, 2004: Message edited by: sunitha raghu ]
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

does one actually get the real world physical certificate(pretty sheet) from IBM or BEA after passing the certification examinations?

For IBM, YES.
You will receive a hard copy of certificate from IBM on request.


or just some electronice stuff that has no meaning and existence in real world

After you pass IBM 287, 484 and 486, you are required to fax your SCJP score report to IBM. For 3-5 days, IBM will send you the E-cert. Upon received, you can then request for the hard copy cert.

Nick
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

do ibm publish certified persons name in their website?

NO. Even SUN does not maintain such a name list.

Other qualifications, like CISSP, CFA, etc, the organizing party did maintain a list for those people who pass the exam, however, you need to pay for them, sth like membership fee, in order keep your name on the list.

If you dont pay, they will remove your name from the list.

Thus, I think there wont be too much people willing to pay for putting their names in those *normal* certification lists.

Nick
sunitha reghu
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Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
so if i write i have abcd, efg. hijk certifications how a potential employer going to validate that. Macromedia do publish the names in their web sites.

aw Nick how you managed to get all these certfs...seems you not spending time with your family.
Nicholas Cheung
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

so if i write i have abcd, efg. hijk certifications how a potential employer going to validate that. Macromedia do publish the names in their web sites.

That's no way an employer can verify in the websites.

But, SUN's cert. manager provides an email cert. status publish feature, it will publish the certs. you got from SUN on your request.


aw Nick how you managed to get all these certfs...seems you not spending time with your family.

I spent much time with my family in fact.
Usually, I study in my office, and thus, I have more time with my family after work. But of course, when exams approach, and tasks are rush, I guess every people will spend less time at these period.

Nick
Kishore Dandu
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Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Originally posted by sunitha raghu:
so if i write i have abcd, efg. hijk certifications how a potential employer going to validate that. Macromedia do publish the names in their web sites.

aw Nick how you managed to get all these certfs...seems you not spending time with your family.


A lot of hiring managers look at the list of certifications and say OK or great or 'We don't care about certifications since when we hired based on that outcome was not so great'.

Now-a-days many big firms do check your prior employment and education stuff that is in the application(i don't think they care about checking the certifications)


Kishore
SCJP, blog
sunitha reghu
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Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:


Now-a-days many big firms do check your prior employment and education stuff that is in the application(i don't think they care about checking the certifications)


Most of them check the wage you earned so that way they can make sure.
Kishore Dandu
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Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Originally posted by sunitha raghu:


Most of them check the wage you earned so that way they can make sure.


Wage & employment check are done at the same time, when they call the previous employer.
Forrest Xu
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Joined: Nov 16, 2002
Posts: 92
Wage & employment check are done at the same time, when they call the previous employer.
Do the current employer check Wage from the previous employer?
Kishore Dandu
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Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Originally posted by Forrest Xu:
Wage & employment check are done at the same time, when they call the previous employer.
Do the current employer check Wage from the previous employer?


Big 4 consulting firms like Deloitte do this mandatory(once the process gets to the point of for sure hiring the candidate). They call the HR, after getting contact info & permission from interview candidate and check the pay. If candidate is worried about it, they call a reference that is with previous company and also check W2 and paystubs.
sunitha reghu
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Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
Calling the prev employer may work in case of known companies. But suppose
if its a unknown company, calling the prev employer doesnt work. Because you can always cheat. emp security and labour dept has a db which has the wages of every person. so with ssn you can easily verify that , so no need to call the prev employer and all that. The same db is used to verify when a person applies for unemployement claims, also child support.Hope its clear to you Kishore.
Kishore Dandu
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Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 1934
Originally posted by sunitha raghu:
Calling the prev employer may work in case of known companies. But suppose
if its a unknown company, calling the prev employer doesnt work. Because you can always cheat. emp security and labour dept has a db which has the wages of every person. so with ssn you can easily verify that , so no need to call the prev employer and all that. The same db is used to verify when a person applies for unemployement claims, also child support.Hope its clear to you Kishore.

I am not arguing any of your opinions. But what I am saying is that there are instances in which previous employer is always tried to be contacted.

There are some companies that provide this previous employment check in US(one of them being HireRight inc). They have specific HR numbers for big firms and they do call them to verify(they don't take those numbers from you, so there is no scope for cheating there). But small firms are verified by way of getting the contact numbers from their websites or by W2 and pay-stubs. This is how it happens in US for some candidates(some is different from all).

How people cheat etc in India or other countries is none of my business since I am in US.
sunitha reghu
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Joined: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 937
Read my post.... What i said how small firms in usa verify the prev employemnet status and if a known company no need to verify.
Forrest Xu
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Joined: Nov 16, 2002
Posts: 92
For example, some one wants to change his job. the future employer checks the Wage from the current employer. then refuse to employ the person. In this case, the person may lost his current job.
Billy Tsai
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Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1304
I wish I have time to study at work also the energy to study for certifications after work
I just feel so tired everyday and I havent even started programming yet in the project just at the SA stage right now
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

I wish I have time to study at work also the energy to study for certifications after work
I just feel so tired everyday and I havent even started programming yet in the project just at the SA stage right now

However, you have already used so much energy to get so much certificates, and thus, you should find no difficulty to handle them, as well as the personal stuffs.

Nick
 
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