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Observation

james edwin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2001
Posts: 393
Hi all,

I am regularly following up this Forum,But it seems this forum is not as active as SCBCD,SCWCD forums.Seems many people are not preparing for this certifications.(just an personal Observation )

Any suggestions to make this forum more active !!!
[ September 23, 2004: Message edited by: james edwin ]

Regards,
James
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
Another explanation might be that the exam has just been released and people are waiting to see what others have to tell about it before registering... A sort of chicken-and-egg problem, I agree

We cannot force people to study for an exam... There is going to be a promotion in October for Whizlabs latest SCDJWS exam simulator, and this is certainly going to generate some traffic...


SCJP 5, SCJD, SCBCD, SCWCD, SCDJWS, IBM XML
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Ko Ko Naing
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
Originally posted by Valentin Crettaz:
There is going to be a promotion in October for Whizlabs latest SCDJWS exam simulator, and this is certainly going to generate some traffic...


IMO, this will happen like in SCMAD forum and Whizlabs SCMAD Exam Simulator promotion... Even during the promotion period, very less amount of people are participating in the forum to win the simulator... But I can say that it got a bit higher traffic than now and before promotion...

The traffic also depends on the developers who are interested in a certain area... Even though there are many developers who expertise in J2ME field and J2EE Web Services field, they may not be interested in taking a cert on it... And it also depends on the popularity of a certain cert as well...


Co-author of SCMAD Exam Guide, Author of JMADPlus
SCJP1.2, CCNA, SCWCD1.4, SCBCD1.3, SCMAD1.0, SCJA1.0, SCJP6.0
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
In addition, as the exam is too new, there is few resources talking about this exam, and thus, people may not want to read lots of books and the specifications.

Nick


SCJP 1.2, OCP 9i DBA, SCWCD 1.3, SCJP 1.4 (SAI), SCJD 1.4, SCWCD 1.4 (Beta), ICED (IBM 287, IBM 484, IBM 486), SCMAD 1.0 (Beta), SCBCD 1.3, ICSD (IBM 288), ICDBA (IBM 700, IBM 701), SCDJWS, ICSD (IBM 348), OCP 10g DBA (Beta), SCJP 5.0 (Beta), SCJA 1.0 (Beta), MCP(70-270), SCBCD 5.0 (Beta), SCJP 6.0, SCEA for JEE5 (in progress)
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
Besides, as web services are fairly young, there is maybe not a very big market demand as of now. Indutrials are waiting for the specifications to settle down and show their strengths/weaknesses... No big deal, though...

people may not want to read lots of books and the specifications.
Debatable... People have become lazy? One has to get down to work somehow. My opinion is that there is well enough docs available for studying for this exam. I see that people are afraid to read specs... they would like to do as little as possible as still get good marks. Come on, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
[ September 24, 2004: Message edited by: Valentin Crettaz ]
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

People have become lazy?

I have seen some people asked whether there is a SINGLE book, with 500+ pages for this exam.

When I told them there were 2 books (RMH and Blueprint), they even said they were too much for time.

Nick
v giri
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 128
Of all the exams that are given by Sun, I think SCJWS has most pre-requisites. While Sun demands only SCJP, I feel that IBM 141 & SCWCD are also pre-requisites to have a grip on the exam. Also SCBCD & IBM 484 are strongly recommended. Add to these EJB 2.1 (no exams yet), several new topics covered that are quite extensive (whether you go thro' specs running into few 1000 pages or RMH book). Design & Security round up the exam needs. While the exam itself is not too hard, preparation can put off anyone. I passed the beta but I could have bet during the preparation I had no chance whatsoever; yet the technologies were exciting so I could survive the preparation.

This exam is a superset of several other exams.

Best wishes


-giri
james edwin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2001
Posts: 393
Hi All,

Thanks for inputs.Once reason i can think of "No single book avaiable for this exam" and people needs to refer different links,so may be that's why people are not still preparing for this. !!!

Any how lets hope for the best !!!
Roger Duchemin
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 11
I don't think that developpers are lazy, nor becoming lazy.
Taking and passing the beta scdjws was really an intellectual challenge of understanding a lot of attractive concepts from XML Schema to JAXB.
Developpers like this kind of challenge.

Another question could be: There doesn't seem to be plenty of jobs in the java web services developpement area and in the web services developpement area generally.
Presently, this is not a typical feature in employment fields. At least in Europe, but other parts of the world should be more fortunate.

Are managers afraid by complexity in web services?
Or is there only a scarce demand for interoperability requirements inside the businesses, against performance and security needs?
It seems like some projects are giving up after inception phase.
Dhiren Joshi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 09, 2003
Posts: 463
I agree with Giri.
This exam has got a syllabus which is very vast. Requires knowledge as super set of web component EJB designs . I was lucky I had appeared for SCEA part-1 so I didnt need to really read up on those topics.
In addition it has lot of new technology which has to be coded and tested for which lot of time is needed. Not many people have worked on such technologies.
If any one doesnt feel comfortable about going through the Specs especially the Basic profile 1.0 which can put off many people who are used to preparing thorugh just a single book .
Then comes the two main books (RMH and the blue prints web services design)
And the java tutuorial for webservices and lots of specs and links to read up for a still growing technology WS security which requires lot of time and effort. Familiarity with web services would the first thing required to make some one start to prepare for this exam.

Even though I passed the beta having 3 years of webservice experience. I wasnt sure I would make it through with all my preparations. I guess the syllabus vastness could be putting off many from going for this certificate.

Dhiren
Mikalai Zaikin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 04, 2002
Posts: 3178
    
    3
Originally posted by Dhiren Joshi:

This exam has got a syllabus which is very vast.
...
I guess the syllabus vastness could be putting off many from going for this certificate.

Dhiren


Absolutely agree.


Free SCDJWS 5.0 Study Guide - SCDJWS 5.0 Quiz (How to get SCDJWS 5.0 Quiz)
Java Platform, Enterprise Edition 6 Web Services Developer Certified Expert Exam Study Guide and Quiz
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
Dhiren Joshi: This exam has got a syllabus which is very vast.
...
I guess the syllabus vastness could be putting off many from going for this certificate.


Natural selection, sort of...

Roger Duchemin: Are managers afraid by complexity in web services?

Web services in themselves are not that complex. Actually they incarn the simplest programming paradigm ever. However, I agree that the web services specifications are all but simple. Can you name one single specification which can be easily read? My opinion is that there are going to be several iterations aiming at simplifying the whole stuff before web services make it into the mainstream. However, since a big numbers of corporations are involved in the specification process, we are going to feel some latency. Just know that a couple of substantially big actors are already using web services quite successfully: PayPal, UPS, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, etc, to name a few. Check out Will Iverson's Real World Web Services book and you'll get peek at where web services are already used and for what purposes...
[ October 04, 2004: Message edited by: Valentin Crettaz ]
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8898

I dont know whether there is any commmerical application server which is J2EE 1.4 certified. Jboss is J2EE 1.4 compliant but..


Groovy
Arun Prasath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2003
Posts: 192
I still feel webservices are not matured enough or stabilized enough for companies to go full fledgedly into it. I gave a proposal to a client sometime back who rejected the webservices solution because of its security loop holes which hasnt yet become stable.

Still lots of specification are evolving but not yet finalised. A long way to go for webservices.
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
I dont know whether there is any commmerical application server which is J2EE 1.4 certified. Jboss is J2EE 1.4 compliant but..
There are actually six licensees for the 1.4 platform:
http://java.sun.com/j2ee/compatibility.html
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8898

Originally posted by Valentin Crettaz:
I dont know whether there is any commmerical application server which is J2EE 1.4 certified. Jboss is J2EE 1.4 compliant but..
There are actually six licensees for the 1.4 platform:
http://java.sun.com/j2ee/compatibility.html


Thanks Val. The IBM and Oracle app servers are devloper version which I believe that cannot be used for production, right? Regarding Sun app server, I have a very bad experience with iPlanet 6.0 version and want to keep away from it unless some one has a good opinion about it.

Web services hasn't reached its peak yet. :roll:
[ October 05, 2004: Message edited by: Pradeep Bhat ]
Roger Duchemin
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 11
Web services in themselves are not that complex. Actually they incarn the simplest programming paradigm ever. However, I agree that the web services specifications are all but simple.

Thanks Val. I agree. Anyway, understanding specifications is part of a developper's job, and usually specifications aren't as clear as the W3C ones.
James Edwin: I am regularly following up this Forum,But it seems this forum is not as active as SCBCD,SCWCD forums.Seems many people are not preparing for this certifications.(just an personal Observation )

Initial question of this thread. In fact, are there Java Web Services Developpers jobs offerings? If some, there are very few around.
Why is SCJP so popular? Because there are millions (I don't remember now how many were claimed :-) ) of Java developpers in the world. This is not the case for WS developpers.
Another question is about the willingness of project managers.
Arun Prasath :I still feel webservices are not matured enough or stabilized enough for companies to go full fledgedly into it. I gave a proposal to a client sometime back who rejected the webservices solution because of its security loop holes which hasnt yet become stable.

Seems like after playtime, they come back to more traditionnal but also more easily locked approaches
One target of Web Services should probably be B2B needs.
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
Anyway, understanding specifications is part of a developper's job

Absolutely! Books are for newbies, specs are for nerds Kidding aside, someone who claims to be a developer really should not be afraid of reading a spec although I admit a book or two would not be harmful... But a spec is still the most authoritative document you can find and the only one you can trust, so it's up to you if you want high-/low-level information. Personally, I have problems with so-called developers who are reluctant to look into a spec, they just seem to lack the basic computer science education to understand formal documents but that's another debate...

Why is SCJP so popular? Because there are millions (I don't remember now how many were claimed :-) ) of Java developpers in the world.
I can't find the source of this anymore but Sun claims there are more than 3 Mio Java developers on earth.
Sudhansu Pati
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 23, 2003
Posts: 77
This is very interrsting thread and I thought I should chime in. I have been pursuing Sun Certification since last year. I have acquired SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD and SCEA. Now I am preparing for SCDJWS certification test now and reading the RMH book. I think sun should break down the SCDJWS to two certifications: one is the multiple-choice test and second one is an assignment. The multiple-choice test should test the basic skills required for web services and the assignment should go in deep.
In today's world, it is not required to know about every single APIs to be be an "application developer" for web services. If you use JBuilder or other Java IDEs, you can easily create, surface and consume web services with the basic skills. But if you want to be an "R&D engineer" for some company, then you have to know in depth of course.


Sudhansu<br />SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCJD, SCEA, SCDJWS
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

If you use JBuilder or other Java IDEs, you can easily create, surface and consume web services with the basic skills

This is the issue! If you think in this way, I dare say, all certifications should be seperated into 2 tests, because IDEs can generate codes for Servlets, JSP, EJB, etc.

In order to learn the technologies, SUN does not encourage people to rely much on IDEs.

Nick
Rr Kumaran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2001
Posts: 548
Hi Nicholas,

How come your are getting time and money to do lot of certifications. Any clue ?


RR Kumaran
SCJP 1.4
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
How come your are getting time and money to do lot of certifications. Any clue ?

All exams are sponsered by the company.

Nick
Rr Kumaran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2001
Posts: 548
and what business you are giving them back ?
james edwin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2001
Posts: 393
Guys,

i think we need to stop this THREAD....as we are running away from the original topic/subject...

Point was not to discuss to the certification fees funding and time.

Don't mind , Just as i thought that we r running away from the original question.So i request you all,Please stop this thread and post only relevant replies.
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
According to what james just said, I will let this thread open as long as the posts are relevant to the original question.

If there is a need to digress from the main subject, just post your question in the appropriate forum. Thank you
Nobuhiro Watsuki
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 07, 2004
Posts: 81
I didn't feel it was a digression.
The subject of the thread is to ascertain the relative unpopularity of this certification.
For us poor developers the price of an exam has to be lower than the net present value of the future income related to the web services certification. If a cert is sponsored it is interesting to hear the motivation of the sponsor.

Offtopic, I have wondered sometimes if Nicholas can find the time to actually build software .

By the way I just bought the hardcopy of the blueprint, it seems to be an excellent book to prepare for the exam. I also bought a Microsoft (!) booklet called Building Interoperable Web Services: WS-I Basic Profile 1.0. it's a very practical little guide to the BP.
[ January 01, 2005: Message edited by: Nobuhiro Watsuki ]

SCJP, SCMAD, SCWCD, SCBCD, CCIE (written), IBM 287<a href="http://hollandiahaven.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">.</a>
Valentin Crettaz
Gold Digger
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 26, 2001
Posts: 7610
By the way I just bought the hardcopy of the blueprint, it seems to be an excellent book to prepare for the exam. I also bought a Microsoft (!) booklet called Building Interoperable Web Services: WS-I Basic Profile 1.0. it's a very practical little guide to the BP.

For those of you who are interested, Microsoft provides the booklet for free as a PDF file at: http://download.microsoft.com/download/8/d/8/8d828b77-2ab2-4c8e-b389-e23684f12035/WSI-BP.pdf

Enjoy
Xiaojie Dong
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 15, 2005
Posts: 2
Hi all!
I'm a Chinese student.
I want to take the exam but the sale of RMH is not available in China.
Even if I can see a hardcopy in the bookstore,
the high price still keep me away from it.
By far, I get most related documents,specs as well as ebooks about this exam except RMH,hence I'm highly appreciated if someone can tell me whether this book has a online-version?
[ January 16, 2005: Message edited by: Xiaojie Dong ]
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
For us poor developers the price of an exam has to be lower than the net present value of the future income related to the web services certification. If a cert is sponsored it is interesting to hear the motivation of the sponsor.

What I can say is, the NPV will not be easily observed in the short run, it is a long term investments because Web services is still not a majority of system architecture. We provided Web services, however, the core system is still in Web-based with mainly Servlets/JSPs/EJBs.


Offtopic, I have wondered sometimes if Nicholas can find the time to actually build software

Usually, I studied at home after work, 2-3 hours a day.

Nick
[ January 16, 2005: Message edited by: Nicholas Cheung ]
Hussein Baghdadi
clojure forum advocate
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Joined: Nov 08, 2003
Posts: 3476

Nicholas,
what is your wall's size ??
man, you are ADDICTED, a walking APIs.
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
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