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Java Architect or Developer

Inga Chekan
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 25, 2000
Posts: 12
Guys
I woud definitely go for Architect as there are more developers these days. Also, it's easy to switch from Architect to Developeras most of the topics are there in Architect exam. Also,
Architect can earn more $$$ than Developers.
In future, Architect will be very useful.
I have made this conculsion after discussing with my friends who work in Java for more than 3 yrs.
Any comments?
Michael Finney
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 25, 1999
Posts: 508
Someone from Sun had told me that being an Architect is a different career track than being a Developer.
It depends on what kind of work you want to do.

Michael Finney - "Always Striving To Serve You Better Every Day"
http://www.smilingsoftwaresolutions.com/
Adrian Yan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 02, 2000
Posts: 688
It's hard to compare Developer to Architect. Developer from Sun is usually more toward application developer. Architect exams are more focus on J2EE enterprise topics. The way the companies are going is more toward web development, so Architect is definitely something worth serious consideration. However, developers are always in demand, they are more toward the old-school development. But I really don't think you can seperate the two, if you are a java developer, chances are, your job requires you to do almost everything.
Michael Finney
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 25, 1999
Posts: 508
Let me put it to you another way.
When I spoke with Charles Martin at a PPJDG meeting and at the beta J2EE architect course, I asked things like "if the Architect does much coding." He said no. He opened my eyes by helping me understand that the architect is not designing subsystems. It is a different career being a Sun Certified Developer from being an Sun Certified Architect. The architect is making sure the system is scalable, secure, and things like that. He does not actually design the systems. (I could be wrong. Check me on that. However, I am pretty sure I am not.)
As I understand it, the only coding required of the architect is possibly prototypes and sometimes digging down into other people's code because the system just is not running well.
Look at http://suned.sun.com/USA/certification/archobj.html closely. Perhaps, the architect needs to know the information, but not often use it except to help others.
Also, think about why there is NO prerequisite for this exam.
Prerequisites: none http://suned.sun.com/USA/certification/archdetails.html
You do not have to be a Sun Certified Java Programmer to do the architect exam.
I may one day go for the Architect Exam, but I think the developer exam is more rewarding for me at this time. It's all up to you. I hope I helped some.
BTW, I belive this is the intelligent Charles Martin I have met a few times. He is a fun guy to talk with. http://net.indra.com/~crmartin/CV.html

I wish the "CERTIFICATION INITIATIVE FOR ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT" was more popular. http://suned.sun.com/USA/certification/initiative.html
------------------
Michael Finney
Sun Certified Programmer for the Java 2 Platform
Vladan Radovanovic
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 20, 2000
Posts: 216
I would love to hear some input on this from the real architects out there. I personally think it is a natural sequence to be first a developer and then architect.
Vladan
Anonymous
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 22, 2008
Posts: 18944
Well, I guess you'd call me a real architect in that I have Sun Certification as an Enterprise Architect. My user name is not my real name (it is obviously ficticious).
At the moment there is no real distinction in the minds of most employers between architects and developers. No one at the company I work for now has even heard of UML. Getting them to buy a package to create UML diagrams has been like pulling teeth (I haven't accomplished it yet). Just another subject the money guys don't understand or want to understand. All that is important is that you are seen beavering away at something can sell.
I got the certification because I was interested in the subject the subject. That is the only reason to do any of these certifications. The hope that is going to make you X number of dollars more is wishful thinking.
sanju dharma
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 19, 2000
Posts: 45
Originally posted by Oliver Fiktishous:
Well, I guess you'd call me a real architect in that I have Sun Certification as an Enterprise Architect. My user name is not my real name (it is obviously ficticious).
At the moment there is no real distinction in the minds of most employers between architects and developers. No one at the company I work for now has even heard of UML. Getting them to buy a package to create UML diagrams has been like pulling teeth (I haven't accomplished it yet). Just another subject the money guys don't understand or want to understand. All that is important is that you are seen beavering away at something can sell.
I got the certification because I was interested in the subject the subject. That is the only reason to do any of these certifications. The hope that is going to make you X number of dollars more is wishful thinking.

sanju dharma
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 19, 2000
Posts: 45
Thanks Oliver for such practical answer. It is surprised to know the awareness of the employers with UML. By assuming that practically it never changes the job profile , I wanted to ask you one question.
Which exam (developer or architect)helps developer to work efficiently ?
Since Architect certification covers many diverse topics like Servlets,IIOP which are not covered in Developer exam . I think ARchtech exam makes person more knowledgeable. What do you think ?
Awaiting your response eagarly.
Sudhir
Sun Certified Programmer.
Originally posted by Oliver Fiktishous:
Well, I guess you'd call me a real architect in that I have Sun Certification as an Enterprise Architect. My user name is not my real name (it is obviously ficticious).
At the moment there is no real distinction in the minds of most employers between architects and developers. No one at the company I work for now has even heard of UML. Getting them to buy a package to create UML diagrams has been like pulling teeth (I haven't accomplished it yet). Just another subject the money guys don't understand or want to understand. All that is important is that you are seen beavering away at something can sell.
I got the certification because I was interested in the subject the subject. That is the only reason to do any of these certifications. The hope that is going to make you X number of dollars more is wishful thinking.

John Wetherbie
Rancher

Joined: Apr 05, 2000
Posts: 1449
I would have to disagree, at least somewhat, with the statement that most employers do not distinguish between developers and architects. I have been a developer, an architect, and both at a number of different companies. They are viewed as very different roles, for better or worse.
When a company is looking at someone to be an architect they are looking for someone who can be the technical leader of a dev team, knows software methodologies/processes, knows UML, and has the ability to grasp "the big picture", whatever that may be in the particular context. Architects are usually not expected to code and at two companies I was at it was actively discouraged.
When looking for developers/programmers companies tend to focus on what you'd expect - knows the language(s) the company is using, how long have they been coding, design skills, etc. You get to code and, hopefully, do design work. I have been at places, though, where the senior people do all, or most, of the design and everyone else "just" codes.
This is based on my experience in aerospace, telecommunications, and dotcoms.
As stated in previous posts, which route to go depends on what you want to do. I personally keep pushing, and trying to be, an architect who codes, ala Robert Martin. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't...
John


The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen all at once.
- Buckaroo Banzai
erich brant
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 27, 2000
Posts: 246
The new Enterprise Architect certification has 3 parts.
1. multi-choice Q and A
2. ejb project
3. essay
http://suned.sun.com/usa/certification
About the first post of this thread , the person who started the topic may not have known or other users of this thread, about the new changes to the certification.
Also the new certification is all about the server-side of java,
Java Enterprise.
Personally I am glad that the certification changed and is more
involved.
Java enterprise is for websites with jsp, ebjs and xml, and using these paradigms for e-commerce , content, examples:
www.coolservlets.com go to jive, bbs that uses xml and jsp.
www.ejbnow.com
www.homedepot.com
www.vitaminshoppe.com
//=====================================
Mock exam for architect:
ps on the new exam there is more on ejbs! http://www.jaworski.com/java/certification/
//......................................

Free books on Java Enterprise!
www.bruceeckel.com
free book Thinking In Java 2 same book as in bookstore is free online! covers jdk and java enterprise!

Advanced Programming for the JavaTM 2 Platform
By Calvin Austin and Monica Pawlan
free book http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/Programming/JDCBook/index.html http://java.sun.com/j2ee/download.html
download these it is the same as these books at amazon:
J2EETM Blueprints
J2EETM Platform Specification
The free downloads are these books at suns site!!!
Designing Enterprise Applications with the Java(tm) 2 Platform, Enterprise Edition
by Nicholas Kassem, Enterprise Team (Editor), Nick Kassem, Enterprise Team
Our Price: $37.95
Java 2 Platform, Enterprise Edition: Platform and Component Specifications (The Java Series)
by Bill Shannon, Mark Hapner, Vlada Matena, James Davidson, Pelegri-l, Larry Cable, Eduardo Pelegri-Llopart
Our Price: $44.95

http://
SRINI VASAN
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 29, 2000
Posts: 48
Thanks for teh details..
Regards,
srini


You can contact me in srinivas_an@yahoo.com
Kalpesh Soni
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 02, 2001
Posts: 312
thanks for the links erich
------------------
"Sun Certified Java Programmer"
KS
"Failing to plan is like plannig to fail!"


Test 094, IBM WID 6.0 cert
SCJP 1.2
SCBCD 1.3 Beta
SCWCD 1.4 Beta
SCMAD Beta
SCDJWS Beta

KS
Peter Pascale
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 18, 2001
Posts: 17
Fascinating subject. I have seen more emphasis on separating the roles of developer and architect, although the lines can be muddied at times.
As stated in previous posts, which route to go depends on what you want to do. I personally keep pushing, and trying to be, an architect who codes, ala Robert Martin. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't...

My sense is that in some organizations this is possible. Especially in organizations that expect the architect to do more of the blueprints (patterns, etc.) in detail for the logical design. In other cases, the architect may work more on prototypes, ensuring scalability, reusability, and assist in some of the more complex pattern or software interface components of the physical design and coding. In other cases, the architect stays out of coding almost entirely. Architecture, especially with J2EE but also in the Microsoft platform, can be comprised entirely of matching technology componenents, interfaces, and communication protocols to the business and technical requirements of the system under design. This often involves prototyping, and therefore some coding, but is either not production code, or if so, only code that is used as a roadmap. An example might be - working out the best method for using LDAP from Microsoft's Active Directory for authentication in a J2EE app on the windows platform.
I am preparing to write a research paper on architectural methods for a class, probably more on the focus of architecture that doesn't involve physical design. Email me at artisanzero@hotmail.com if you want me to send you a copy. Also, there is a great white paper on basic architectural methodology at www.artemisalliance.com in their tech corner.
Peter
Mark Halloran
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 20, 2001
Posts: 9
I'm currently working on SCJD and am really enjoying the project. Reading this thread gives me pause because I like the nature of the work as a developer (if I can assume I will have a non-trivial application to develop).
I think I would still be interested in the materials which are covered by the Architecture exam, though I would be loathe to get too far away from the code for now.

Mark
zoe goddard
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 74
So, is an architect a new word for system engineer?
Marius Holm
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 11, 2000
Posts: 84
I consent to the above.

Marius
Bidyut Padhi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 07, 2000
Posts: 121
The Requirement for
J2EE & EJB in the present diversified Software field can not be denied by Corporates.
So as Software Engg. One has to keep pace with the Current Trench is most Important.
And I think The Sun Enterprise Architecture Certification is the One which will fulfils the requiremet the corporate people looking to be in a software Developer.
It covers almost every espect of the Job.
Bidyut
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by Vladan Radovanovic:
I would love to hear some input on this from the real architects out there. I personally think it is a natural sequence to be first a developer and then architect.

First, let me note this term is overloaded and differnet people/companies use it differently. I tend to distunguish between a "Software Architect" and a "Systems Architect." The former can design a large, single piece of software, the latter knows how to connect multiple pieces of software, somce home grown, some OTS, into a complete system. The line can often blur, and often one person may do both. The skill sets, however, can be a bit different.
Even in the case of a system architect, that person should still be a proficent coder. I saw this for two reasons. First, the acrhitect needs to be grounded. If a architect hasn't written code in 12 months, s/he may start forgetting some of the tricky, subtle details which can effect the overall system. Second, the exam is worthless without experience. Until you've built programs/systems, and encountered lots of problems, you probably can't design a good program/system. Since comapnies aren't going to hire you to be an architect right out of school you'll start as a developer anyway.
We're currently trying to hire another architect, and lemme tell ya, good ones are few and far between.

--Mark
hershey@vaultus.com
jay carlson
Greenhorn

Joined: Dec 14, 2000
Posts: 3
I believe one should go for developer first. This way you get real experience as to how the code actually works. If you are strictly an architect, what good are you to me if you can't delve into code if something isn't performing properly as you expected in the architectural plans you designed. The experiences of the developer first will lead to a richer understanding of the architectural aspects of software design later.
Sowmya Vinay
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 01, 2001
Posts: 24
Suddenly this thread became alive thanks to book giveaway(or should I say vouchers giveaway). I have over an year of professional java experience , but I am yet to get over with coding!! Since I have not fully experienced all the pitfalls of professional coding(java) life, I am leaning towards SCJD path . According to me, one has to have a good amount of professional coding experience(Please note:for me experience doesn't directly relate to number of years. I consider an experienced programmer as one who is capable of writing a good, scalable,reusable program for any requirement, given the specifications, and one who is at ease, while learning any language.Sorry for digressing!! ), before one decides to take a leap on becoming an architect. This is how I feel about this issue and anyone is welcome to correct me if I am wrong!
However, this doesn't stop me from getting a voucher!

[This message has been edited by Sowmya Vinay (edited February 20, 2001).]
Ajith Kallambella
Sheriff

Joined: Mar 17, 2000
Posts: 5782
On a related note, I find that the SCJD objectives are grossly inadequate in terms of what is covered. For those who would like to graduate to the Architect level through the "normal" course of SCJP, SCJD and SCJEA the transition between SCJD and SCJEA will not be very smooth. For some reason beyond my comprehension, the folks at SunEd didnot include J2EE concepts and technologies in the SCJD objectives. I feel they should have added atleast the Servlets, JSP to the assignment so that the aspiring developers don't stumble on real jobs after passing SCJD.
This means SCJD aspirants should also expend extra effort in understanding the J2EE technologies, which are most likely to be a part of their jobs as Java developes.
Just an opinion..
------------------
Ajith Kallambella M.
Sun Certified Programmer for the Java�2 Platform.
IBM Certified Developer - XML and Related Technologies, V1.


Open Group Certified Distinguished IT Architect. Open Group Certified Master IT Architect. Sun Certified Architect (SCEA).
Jeff, Carlson
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 20, 2001
Posts: 6
Where I work, the same people do everything when it comes to development; we just put on different hats. When we change those hats, we really change. We are hardly at our desks, because we are usually in one of the design rooms with lots and lots of white boards. Sometimes these sessions last 1/2 a day, sometimes everyday for a week or two. Once we think we have a plan and its documented and then approved. We change are hats, everyone takes their piece and its off to the races.
Our company has architects and data architects. The architects just give us guidance on an overall picture for the structure of the company. They tie all of the branches together and try to keep everyone from doing things their own way. I.e. common means of persistence, five layer architecture, the big picture stuff.
The data architect is actually in our design sessions helping us, and doing research on existing data resources.
I plan on getting the architect certification, because I believe it will help me as a developer with my designs, not because I want to oversee the big picture of the system.
faisal mahmood
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 30, 2000
Posts: 349
I think Developer exams would be good preparation for SCEA.
Besides, you may count SCJD or jcert
Faisal
Anil Vupputuri
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 31, 2000
Posts: 527
I feel, architect needs to be thorough with extensive OOP concepts which come along with long run of coding i.e, Developer albeit it may happen in reverse way i.e., becoming architect without having coding practice but the one who does coding will be a real architect in a long run.
Architect can not born in a single day learning some skills over the night.Architect requires thorough UML which in turn requires OOP,OOD and Analysis which comes with some minimum coding.
So i feel hierarchy goes from developer to architect for a better and sustainable projects in a IT.
Anil


SCJP 1.5, SCEA, ICED (287,484,486)
Tony Chen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 29, 2001
Posts: 286
Originally posted by Ajith Kallambella:
... For those who would like to graduate to the Architect level through the "normal" course of SCJP, SCJD and SCJEA the transition between SCJD and SCJEA will not be very smooth. For some reason beyond my comprehension, the folks at SunEd didnot include J2EE concepts and technologies in the SCJD objectives. I feel they should have added atleast the Servlets, JSP to the assignment so that the aspiring developers don't stumble on real jobs after passing SCJD ...

IMHO, jCert's VCSD and VCED might lead you to SCJEA more smoothly.
e.g.
IBM Certified Solution Developer
1. Object-Oriented Analysis and Design with UML Test
2. IBM WebSphere Application Server, Standard Edition V3.5, Test
IBM Certified Enterprise Developer
3. Enterprise Connectivity Test (with Java 2 Enterprise Edition)
4. IBM WebSphere Application Server, Advanced Edition V3.5, Test
After walking through this path, you'll have covered most of the ojectives for SCJEA already.
I just took the #2 test I listed above this afternoon, and became an IBM Certified Solution Developer now!


SCJP Java 2 - IBM Certified Enterprise Developer - WebSphere V4.0 & V5.0 - IBM Certified System Administrator - WebSphere Network Deployment V6.0 - Canadian Securities Course (CSC) Certification
faisal mahmood
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 30, 2000
Posts: 349
Architects also needs developer experience. That's why the new SCJEA requires you to do compulsory assignment as part 2.
Faisal
 
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