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Does one need Experience ?

Vishakha Ahuja
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 13, 2000
Posts: 191
Hi everyone,
I did a course on Java about a year back and since then have got addicted to it. I have passed my Programmer certification 6 months ago. I don't have a job (that's because I don't have work visa in USA). Companies willing to sponsor ask for experience and I cannot get experience without working (Vicious cycle !)
So, I want to get more certifications so someone would consider me for a job.
Is it feasible though, to give the architect and developer exams without any real-world experience in Java ? I've been reading books on EJB & UML. I don't understand the concept of RMI very well. I've yet to get books for server-side Java. Are there any web sites where I can get a picture of what real-world problems are like with solutions ???
Ajith Kallambella
Sheriff

Joined: Mar 17, 2000
Posts: 5782
Certificates( no matter how many ) can never substitute real-life experience. A certification only acts as a accreditation for your skills.
Since it is hard to get a job without real-experience (and since it is hard to get real experience without a real-job ) I suggest you do some projects just for fun. You can take a real-life scenario and develop a full-fledged working solution, preferably using J2EE technologies. You can then showcase your application on one of the free websites and use it in your interviews.
Having your own personal webpage with lots of (technical) stuff that speaks about you has become a very common way of impressing your prospective employers thesedays.
Have you seen the Petstore example on Sun's website?
[PS : I'm sorry if this sounds like career advice. I know this forum is for certification discussion only ]
[This message has been edited by Ajith Kallambella (edited February 21, 2001).]


Open Group Certified Distinguished IT Architect. Open Group Certified Master IT Architect. Sun Certified Architect (SCEA).
Vishakha Ahuja
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 13, 2000
Posts: 191
Thanks Ajith. But can you be more specific about where do I begin? and sequence of steps to follow. Please do me this favour.
Ajith Kallambella
Sheriff

Joined: Mar 17, 2000
Posts: 5782
You should probably start here. Read about all the technologies that make up the J2EE and learn about implementing them one by one. Remember your goal is to understand what is the scope of each of the technology, when it can be used( and when it cannot be used ) and finally how all of these fit together and collaborate to make your enterprise application work.
If you find the information overwhelming, I suggest you start with the Servlets, then go to JSP and then walk the EJB track. This is just my preference
Good luck,
------------------
Ajith Kallambella M.
Sun Certified Programmer for the Java�2 Platform.
IBM Certified Developer - XML and Related Technologies, V1.
shivani anand
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 28, 2000
Posts: 155
Hi! Vishakha,
After reading through ur question I felt u r duffering from exactly same proplem what I have. I've started preparing for architect exam. I've also passed SCJP2. I do appreciate ajit's advice but doing project by my own.. I just don't know how to start and what are the things like compiler and tools required for the project. But, I'll give thought to this suggestion if u decide to do something let me know. Hope we can discuss and do something. I am also hearing that java is no more in demand which scares me.
shivani
Vishakha Ahuja
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 13, 2000
Posts: 191
Hi Shivani,
It is always nice to find a person with similar problems. Two heads work better than one. So, I liked your idea to do things together. But I couldn't find your email address on your profile. Do send me your email address so we can keep in touch.
You gave me a shock by saying "Java is no longer in demand" I thought Java is the future. Where did you hear this news from ?
Vishakha.
John Wetherbie
Rancher

Joined: Apr 05, 2000
Posts: 1441
For the SCEA project you will need a word processor and a UML drawing tool.
John


The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen all at once.
- Buckaroo Banzai
Christopher Kerns
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 30, 2001
Posts: 9
Does the UML tool need to be full featured???
Together Whiteboard is free, but only offers class diagrams. I'm also running NoMagic's MagicDraw UML which I have an eval license for but has some limitations on the number of classes I can create.
I guess enough products offer 30 day evals that I could use a nice tool for the project, at least!
shivani anand
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 28, 2000
Posts: 155
Hi! Vishaka,
you give me your e-mail and I'll contact you as I don't want to put it on net. We will be in contact.
shivani
shivani anand
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 28, 2000
Posts: 155
can anyone suggest the steps involeved in doing a project. How one should start it? How to get the topic etc.
shivani
Mark Herschberg
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 04, 2000
Posts: 6037
Originally posted by shivani anand:
can anyone suggest the steps involeved in doing a project. How one should start it? How to get the topic etc.
shivani

This is arguably off-topic but then, so are a fair number of postings to this forum this week. I recently gave a talk at MIT covering what's involved in software projects.* Most people with little experience, tend to focus only on the coding, but most projects are more complex than that.
I would recommend finding a good process book, one that will cover how to plan and design a project. That will give you an idea of what to consider (e.g. requirements, use cases, UI, testability, deployment, etc). Then, execute the project plan. Ideally do it with other people, preferably some with experience. Barring that, make your project open source, or, at least post the articfacts of each step on the web, and ask for feedback. (Artifacts are things like documentation, specifications, code, test cases, etc. Physical things producted when making software.) There are plenty of people posting on the Job Discussion forum looking to get involved in such projects. There are also plenty of nice people on JavaRanch who will take a look at things to give you advice if you ask for it (the easier you make it for them to quickly understand what you are doing, the more likely you'll get help).

*OK, shameless plug, the talk with references, can be found off my web page, at: http://web.mit.edu/hershey/www/ Unfortunately, the slides alone just give general ideas, it might not be clear if you're not at least a little bit familiar with software projects. The references might be a useful starting point. Also note that my talk doesn't dicuss actual software design or coding. There are plenty of books on that; and unfortunately, experience is the best teacher.

--Mark
hershey@vaultus.com
Vishakha Ahuja
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 13, 2000
Posts: 191
Hi Shivani,
My email is
vishakha_ahuja@hotmail.com
Actually, there is a symbol for email just above the individual message on the right side of the date. Well, do send me a mail and we'll discuss further.
Vishakha.
shailesh sonavadekar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2000
Posts: 1874
Vishakha & Shivani , All I want to suggest is " Don't beleive in Rumours". Java has stabilized after 5 years. It is quite a long time & java has penetrated almost all parts , whether it Enterprise applications , Financial Services or Microwave oven. See the area of Embedded applications is yet to come. Java has proved its potential that is the reason why many giants like oracle , ibm to name few are for java.
What I want to say , is learn computer science . let the language be immaterial. yesterday was c++ , today is java , tomorrow may be something else. We don't know. So ,become stronger technically. You will successfully cross any ocean.
Regarding , Vishkha's question , please read this link on sun's site properly.Please read the objectives clearly. You definitley require experience at software architect level.
As our great sherriff , Ajith , who has given very valuable guidelines , you will make it.
Please see this & this discussion threads for more information.
I hope this will be useful.
Your Friendly Bartender
Shailesh.
Vishakha Ahuja
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 13, 2000
Posts: 191
Thanks to Shailesh and Ajith for such good advice.
But, you'll try to step into my shoes and think, probably then you will understand what agony I'm going through.
Anyway, I have another question.
How much is each part of the scjea worth individually?

What I mean is if I pass only part 1, does it have any significance ?
John Wetherbie
Rancher

Joined: Apr 05, 2000
Posts: 1441
From a UML perspective you will need a tool that can create class diagrams and sequence diagrams for the project.
As far as the worth of each part - you need to pass (69%) part 1 to proceed to part 2. Your score for part 1 doesn't matter beyond whether you pass or not. Part 2 & 3 are graded together. When you download the project it tells you how much each part of the project is worth and what the part 3 exam is worth. Can't remember the breakdown off the top of my head but I think there are 150 points possible for parts 2 & 3.
John
faisal mahmood
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 30, 2000
Posts: 349
I think you should atleast play around with any J2EE compliant Application Server before doing the test. This will also give you better understanding of the whole architecture and of will help you for SCJEA.
Faisal
Anil Vupputuri
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 31, 2000
Posts: 527
Do we need to know abt Java Data Objects/Value objects .
Does SCEA emphasis on Entity Beans?


SCJP 1.5, SCEA, ICED (287,484,486)
willie blue
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 03, 2000
Posts: 13
I'm working on a website that will use J2EE technology. Does anyone know a hosting service where I can place my site?
Thanks.
Anil Vupputuri
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 31, 2000
Posts: 527
Originally posted by willie blue:
I'm working on a website that will use J2EE technology. Does anyone know a hosting service where I can place my site?
Thanks.

Yep..u can use services of
www.mycgiserver.com which can host JSP/Servlets and planning to offer EJB's in a short time for free.
Anil
John Wetherbie
Rancher

Joined: Apr 05, 2000
Posts: 1441
Anil,
You do need to know about data objects. I'm pretty sure one of the EJB objectives mentions them.
You need to understand session beans (both types) and entity beans very well.
John
 
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