aspose file tools*
The moose likes Web Component Certification (SCWCD/OCPJWCD) and the fly likes Value of  SCWCD Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Certification » Web Component Certification (SCWCD/OCPJWCD)
Bookmark "Value of  SCWCD" Watch "Value of  SCWCD" New topic
Author

Value of SCWCD

Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

I wanna to know what is the value of SCWCD in the market?


Groovy
Amer Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 05, 2003
Posts: 163
I would like to know the value of any certification or uni Degree? plus the definition of experience.
BTW is it true that Wrox Press declared bankruptcy a few months ago
[ July 21, 2003: Message edited by: Amer Khan ]

<i>Dare to dream - everything that exists today,was once a figment of someone's imagination, nobody says tomorrow can't be a figment of your today.</i>
Rattan Mann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 44
Wrox is indeed bankrupt. I read it on theserverside.com the day wrox went bankrupt.
There is always an "implicit value" to certification exams - the prospective employer is
assured that you are not an imposter and that you
know your field.
Experience versus certification is a simplistic
black-or-white view of reality. In these days of fast changing technology experience is not so important as it once was. Obscure properiety systems with poor documentation and no standards
needed "experienced" people. Today any bright kid
can get hold of an inspiring book on some open source technology and come to speed without the
help of "experienced" guys. I am not against experience, but it will have less value in the future than it had in the past because by the time you are experienced in a technology it is almost outdated.
Rattan alias Rat the Cateater
Ken Januski
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 08, 2002
Posts: 130
You can never overestimate experience and it won't go out of date. The reason is that experience teaches anyone (who's paying attention at least) paradigms as well as specifics. After seeing so many loop constructs, i/o methods, etc. you become pretty familiar with new variations on them. This type of experience is always valuable, even in employers might not be bright enough to see it. I should admit though that I consider myself somewhat experienced so I'm somewhat biased. But I still think it's true.
As far as the value of the certificate it has two main values as far as I can see: like someone else says it shows any prospective employers that you've paid enough attention to learn the basics
and you're not an impostor; but it also is valuable to you because it's forced you to learn some things that you might not otherwise learn in everyday use. I've not used listeners in my own webapps, for instance, but certification forced me to learn them. It also allowed me to understand better some things that I thought I already knew.
But as far as market value, well, as Amer said, I'd like to know the market value of any certification, degree, etc. Perhaps there was a day when you could say this cert equals so much pay but I think those days are gone. I'd be happy to stand corrected.
As far as Wrox goes there was talk a month or two about them going bankrupt. But I have been getting email from them about their revived web site, upcoming books, etc. What this actually means I don't know.
Billy Tsai
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1304
scwcd is pretty useless whether u have experience or not so is SCJP


BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
Oracle Certified Master Java EE 5 Enterprise Architect
Paul Zill
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 12, 2003
Posts: 28
Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
scwcd is pretty useless whether u have experience or not so is SCJP
--------------------
MCP,MCDBA,MCSA,OCP 8i&9i DBA,SCJP,SCWCD

So than why do you have both SCJP & SCWCD?
Is this a conclusion you came to in hindsight?
[ July 21, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Zill ]
Amer Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 05, 2003
Posts: 163
Is 'IT' a good choice as a career for new comers?
click here
Definition of experience ?
Is it one or two personal projects(web-sites etc) or 3 or 4 yrs of commercial work?

I have seen people in this forum who have over 10 yrs of commercial experience and in my opinion
are very capable,but are still unemployed
.
So, even if you have a CS degree,a few certs and 2/3 yrs of commercial experience and still can't get a job,what does this mean?
IMHO there is no point in waiting for another 5 yrs for things to get better. LOOK ELSEWHERE, by this i mean don't depend on one thing.
Specially people who are young like Billy still have many opportunities(Managment,Finance etc).IMO in real world you stand a better chance if you have IT + Managment or IT + Finance.
BTW do you know in India you can hire a reasonable programmer for <= 199.99US a month.

R U having fun Pradeep?
[ July 26, 2003: Message edited by: Amer Khan ]
Billy Tsai
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 1304
SCJP is just like MCP everyone in IT has them and so many ppl has it its not funny anymore even ppl who don't really know Java and dont know English has it because they just cram the questions so its value has gone done substantially
of course there are useful certs out there like SCJD+SCEA(must have both to have to be valueable I think), OCM and some IBM ones etc...
MCSE is defintely not included.
I dont have any valueable or useful certs and I am pretty down
Amer Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 05, 2003
Posts: 163
quote: Billy
just cram the questions
============================================

What ???
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

R U having fun Pradeep?

Himanshu Jhamb
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 01, 2001
Posts: 134
Hi All.
Couldn't help but comment on this post. Here's a story that might be a bit uplifting who feel that they wasted their time/energy/money on taking the SJCP.
I have a fair bit of experience (about 7+ yrs.) in s/w development & my programming path has been C,C++,Java... I was stuck in a C++ project for about 3 yrs... & was quite bored w/it as I was getting a feeling of stagnation. While the whole world was running towards cool Java/J2EE technologies, I was still working on this 10000 pound elephant of a project in C++. My company got a couple of new projects in Java/J2EE... and started the design/development for that w/a team.
Instead of cursing my luck (which I must admit, I did for a little bit)... I started studying for SCJP. It took me about 6 months to prepare for it (alongwith my job) & I passed w/what I believe was a decent score.
It just so happened, that the Java projects became bigger & there was a requirement for 1 person after about 6 months... I was picked out of 10-15 ppl. just because I had taken that extra initiative of taking the SCJP & they would rather take someone whom they don't have to train from scratch.
I have been working on Java since then & till today, I apply a lot of what I learnt during my SCJP preparation to my project & again, it gets recognized in due course of time... maybe not in terms of money
but more responsibilities.
I understand that its easy to get frustrated when things don't work out BUT, in my humble opinion, one has to be ready when the opportunity knocks... and one can never tell when that might be. I had to wait for 6 months to get the results... I will end my philosophical rant w/one final statement.
Knowledge, in whatever form, never goes waste.


Himanshu Jhamb<br />SCJP2 v1.2 (April 2002)<br />SCJP2 v1.4 (May 2002)
Paul Zill
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 12, 2003
Posts: 28
I don't quite agree with the stance that since there are so many scwcds (and scjps) out there that the certification is invalid. The value of the certification lies in the fact that you took the initiative to take that extra step. That coupled with experience distinguishes yourself. If you are just a paper scwcd than the cert probably won't help you much. But if you have experience to back up that cert, you are distinguishing yourself from the pact.
Also, if you are new to IT and looking for a jr position certs can also help distinguish you from the pact. Don�t expect certs alone to get you a good job (or a better paying job) if you don�t have the experience. You have to earn it.
At least that's my 2 cents.
Terry Wang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 27, 2001
Posts: 102
why some ppl always ask "do certs guanrantee jobs/$???" again and again!!! this kind of discussions have been around this forum and elsewhere for a long while(check every exam-related forums here). why some ppl are still so naive and think about things in black and white.
CERTS don's mean JOBS, no matter it's scjp, scwcd, ocp, mcsd, ... period.
some ppl think having some certs can beat guys without them in job market or work, but in reality, they find it's not true, then they come back and blame certs.


scjp/jd/wcd/mcad/scea 1
Verity smith
Greenhorn

Joined: May 27, 2003
Posts: 18
quote:Himanshu Jhamb
I have a fair bit of experience (about 7+ yrs.)
--------------------------------------
quote:Terry Wang
CERTS don's mean JOBS, no matter it's scjp, scwcd, ocp, mcsd, ... period.
some ppl think having some certs can beat guys without them in job market or work, but in reality, they find it's not true, then they come back and blame certs
---------------------------------------------
quote:Amer

Is 'IT' a good choice as a career for new comers?
even if you have a CS degree,a few certs and 2/3 yrs of commercial experience and still can't get a job,what does this mean?
---------------------------------
How do you expect to gain experience without a job??
Don't forget people who claim to have 4/5 years experience got into "IT", when the times were good
and IT jobs were no problem.These days many experienced people are struggling to either keep their present jobs or find a new one.

The million dollar question which still remains unanswered is
"Is 'IT' a good choice as a career for new comers?"
BTW I am one of those lucky ones who got into IT 5 years ago!
Masters in CS
SCJP/SCWCD/SCJD
Mehdi Chaouachi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 02, 2003
Posts: 87
if you don�t have the experience

This question was in mind for a long time and now I have the possibility to ask it : What do you people mean by experience?
does working in any IT related job means experience?
I find it very confusing, take my example, I am supposed to be working as a programmer for almost one year now, but since my stupid IT manager does not know anything about programming, he is giving me really really silly jobs, that do not relate to programming in any way.
I find my self not taking any advantadge (or experience ) in any way, but i caanot leave this job for two reasons, first is that i have to pay for my studies, second is that the market over here is so dead and there is no possibility to find a job for a non graduated yet person.
So does this count as an experience for me or not?


Mehdi Chaouachi<p>Sun Certified Java Programer (1.4)<br />Sun Certified Web Component Developer (1.4).<br />Sun Certified Mobile Application Developer.
Paul Zill
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 12, 2003
Posts: 28
Originally posted by Mehdi Chaouachi:

So does this count as an experience for me or not?

Mehdi sorry to hear about your jacka$$ boss.
And even though this might sound redundent and obvious "experience" is relative to the position or job you are looking for. But . . . to put it generically it is exposure to the technologies you'll be asked to develop and implement. By working with these technologies you learn the pros and cons, when problems arise you are already farmiliar with them and now how to handle them, etc.
These are the intangibles that cannot be obtained from books. Books give you insight, but in the real world there are so many different things that can go wrong in any number of combinations.
Ken Januski
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 08, 2002
Posts: 130
I'd like to add to what Paul said above:

These are the intangibles that cannot be obtained from books. Books give you insight, but in the real world there are so many different things that can go wrong in any number of combinations.

Part of the value of experience is just having been through unexpected problems. The more you've been through them the calmer you are the next time one occurs and the more likely you are to solve it quickly. I'm not sure that all employers realize this but I think that the good ones do. Also every technology has its undocumented quirks, where it just doesn't work the way it's supposed to. The more you've been exposed to these through previous experience the less likely you are to be thrown by them when you run across them at a new job. This holds true for all technologies that I've ever dealt with.
But suppose you really don't have any experience. Well the best thing I can suggest is to write your own programs that give you at least some experience. I guess you can't actually put that down on a resume but if you get far enough to have an interview I think you'll feel a little more comfortable in it.
Good luck,
Ken
yogen joshi
Greenhorn

Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 21
I do not understand the point of this discussions about the usefulness / uselessness
of certificates.
Well lets get one thing clear,
If experience was the only thing required then what is the whole point of going to
university and get a degree and get qualified?
Because everyone knows that no organisation is going to care a thing about what you
say or try to convince about your experience,.... they are going to ask you for your
qualifications.
Similarly getting certified is at least half the battle won. The other half is your
experience and qualities as a programmer. Why cant anyone realize this.
Certificates might not guarantee a job, but at least they will merit a second look by
the employer.
In the corporate jungle you have to ensure that your CV looks better than the rest,
and no one will less agree that professional certificates do add a boost to it.
All the best
yogen
Amer Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 05, 2003
Posts: 163
package realworld;
public class IT{
int demand;
int supply;
public IT(){
demand=10;
supply=1000;
}
public IT(int demand,int supply){
this.demand=demand;
this.supply=supply;
}
public void realityCheck(){
if(demand >= supply){
System.out.println("No Worries ");
}else
System.out.println("Worries ");
}

public static void main(String[] abc){
new IT(1,1000).realityCheck();
}//end main
}
EJ Dinglasan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2003
Posts: 47
nice one amer
Eshwar Satrasala
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 15
Hey Pradeep, U have SCJP, SCEA and SCBCD .. are these certifications not valuable enough that u are aiming for SCWCD now.. Anyways, If you decide to take up SCWCD, please don't inform N*** . I hope you got what I meant.
Amer Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 05, 2003
Posts: 163
Thanks EJ.
Certs+Degrees+Experience All are important.
Problem is with the present market which is very slow at the moment.
one IT job------------->1000 applicants!
IMO, the employers are asking for a bit too much
(demand/supply --->problem) and because of this
newcomers are suffering.
"Time is an excellent teacher; but eventually it kills all its students. "
Alexandre Ferras
[ July 24, 2003: Message edited by: Amer Khan ]
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

I am not aiming for SCWCD. I just wanted to know the worth of the certificate for my friend.
I am not yet an SCEA.
Originally posted by Eshwar Satrasala:
Hey Pradeep, U have SCJP, SCEA and SCBCD .. are these certifications not valuable enough that u are aiming for SCWCD now.. Anyways, If you decide to take up SCWCD, please don't inform N*** . I hope you got what I meant.

[ July 24, 2003: Message edited by: Pradeep Bhat ]
Ken Januski
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 08, 2002
Posts: 130
Amer,
I think we should add your program to a Certificaton FAQ page.
Bartenders what do you think?
Amer Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 05, 2003
Posts: 163
Amer Khan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 05, 2003
Posts: 163
Check This!!Forget IT, Australian students told!!!
Any Comments.
[ July 27, 2003: Message edited by: Amer Khan ]
EJ Dinglasan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2003
Posts: 47
Wow 66%
Now I know why IT is dying here in the Philippines. Our country used to be the outsourcing capital in Asia.
 
 
subject: Value of SCWCD